Hawke Ailing?
George: Charlie is correct. The TAA A300 B4 was always a three man cockpit. OTOH the 767 was a two man enterprise that was adapted to a three by Ansett.
Others: I was never on strike, I resigned after expressing my alignment with AFAP, agreeing to do my next duty (simulator a couple of days later), was subsequently stood aside having not refused any duty. The last straw was when my compatriots started getting early morning visits, from agents of the company, with dire economic threats. I was not heavied or threatened by anyone, from AFAP, neither am I aware of any such behaviour, (First hand knowledge as I was on the desk in South Melb on that fateful evening)
I have my bottle of '89 Grange, at the ready, to mark the passing.
Maui
Others: I was never on strike, I resigned after expressing my alignment with AFAP, agreeing to do my next duty (simulator a couple of days later), was subsequently stood aside having not refused any duty. The last straw was when my compatriots started getting early morning visits, from agents of the company, with dire economic threats. I was not heavied or threatened by anyone, from AFAP, neither am I aware of any such behaviour, (First hand knowledge as I was on the desk in South Melb on that fateful evening)
I have my bottle of '89 Grange, at the ready, to mark the passing.
Maui
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What Maui said. True to the letter. I have the hard copies of the documents pushed under my door in the middle of the night urging me and my colleagues back to work. So the resignation, done in cold blood and full knowledge to save my super and savings, was not a drawback to him. And his ilk. Not at all.
Thus when in Kilmore he said, to my face, that he wanted us back to work, I asked him, directly, if his government “would deal with the pilot body through their choice of negotiating body "in good faith" if the AFAP would submit itself to the Arbitration Commission”-they are my words and I remember them very clearly……he said “Yes”......no ifs and no buts.
……and then at every point the AFAP made some progress in the Commission-he, the Prime Minister, "Mr Fixit", the great negotiator, did exactly the opposite and ensured the rug was pulled out. Some might call that lying. Some might certainly say the "fix was in". They might say that, I couldn't possibly comment. How could I know what was in his heart?
He will die very rich. No doubt he saved his parliamentary salary well. Must have. Some may well mourn. Quite possibly. But for me, I will take no joy in his passing. He will be judged at a Higher Tribunal soon as we must all one day be. But Bob, as your eyes soon close for the last time on the harbour views, as you hear the clink of gold (or might it be thirty pieces of silver?) for the last time…..was it worth it mate? Was it really worth it? I guess as an Oxford man he might echo fellow Oxonian Robert Southey’s famous words.
"Why that I cannot tell," said he,
"But 'twas a famous victory."
Famous indeed. If he was genuinely doing his best to get the industry on a stable footing for deregulation then he failed absolutely spectacularly. Blew billions rather than talking and killed 4 airlines. Fighting to someone else's tune and someone else last dollar. All rather than talk. Hawke’s last breath will undo nought of what he did and what he let happen.
I suspect, that to save ink and time, the obituary writers will do as I have done and cut and paste words from a great writer to tell their tale. Maybe they’ll go to Macbeth for inspiration and simply say……
“ Nothing in his life became him like the leaving it”
Sui Generis
Thus when in Kilmore he said, to my face, that he wanted us back to work, I asked him, directly, if his government “would deal with the pilot body through their choice of negotiating body "in good faith" if the AFAP would submit itself to the Arbitration Commission”-they are my words and I remember them very clearly……he said “Yes”......no ifs and no buts.
……and then at every point the AFAP made some progress in the Commission-he, the Prime Minister, "Mr Fixit", the great negotiator, did exactly the opposite and ensured the rug was pulled out. Some might call that lying. Some might certainly say the "fix was in". They might say that, I couldn't possibly comment. How could I know what was in his heart?
He will die very rich. No doubt he saved his parliamentary salary well. Must have. Some may well mourn. Quite possibly. But for me, I will take no joy in his passing. He will be judged at a Higher Tribunal soon as we must all one day be. But Bob, as your eyes soon close for the last time on the harbour views, as you hear the clink of gold (or might it be thirty pieces of silver?) for the last time…..was it worth it mate? Was it really worth it? I guess as an Oxford man he might echo fellow Oxonian Robert Southey’s famous words.
"Why that I cannot tell," said he,
"But 'twas a famous victory."
Famous indeed. If he was genuinely doing his best to get the industry on a stable footing for deregulation then he failed absolutely spectacularly. Blew billions rather than talking and killed 4 airlines. Fighting to someone else's tune and someone else last dollar. All rather than talk. Hawke’s last breath will undo nought of what he did and what he let happen.
I suspect, that to save ink and time, the obituary writers will do as I have done and cut and paste words from a great writer to tell their tale. Maybe they’ll go to Macbeth for inspiration and simply say……
“ Nothing in his life became him like the leaving it”
Sui Generis
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A few years ago before I gave away bus driving I flew with an American skipper who was a terrific bloke ex USAF he came out in '89 after he looked into a pretty attractive job offer here in Oz, good pay, lots of Co support and the Govt would grease the wheels for his whole family to come out, he took up the offer and stayed till he retired about 4 years ago and went back to Orange County to see out his days. The thing is he was told initially that there was a shortage of pilots as there was some disputes going on, he had no idea till he got here just how ugly it was, suicides, huge emotional dramas, Govt corruption at its best all thanks to the Rat Pack (3 grubs) of which old BH was the most cunning. Once he's buried the whole ****ty mess can be put where it belongs, in Australia's ugly aviation past!!
Cessnapete you sound like management and or one of the entitiled generation, do you have the remotest idea how much Qantas pay their pilots and how much profit they make?
You can find the basics of pay for pilots online - it is above the average wage for sure, and similar to say a doctor (as per hours worked) in many cases.
Now Qantas and profits - lets take a look at that over say 10 years.
Not a lot of profit there, but what is worse is the decline in actual real assets - basically the aircraft are 10 years older and the cash that was in the bank to replace them is gone.
That is not any of the pilots fault nor the governments, The little fellow takes a fair bit of blame for that but also it is a change in trends that include fuel prices and airport costs and low cost options.
machtuk - your obvious affection for RJL Hawke M.P. , puts me in mind of John Clarke's excellent satires contained in 'The Complete Book of Australian Verse'. Anybody with a cynical, satirical mind should have a copy - or the sequel 'The Even More Complete Book of Australian Verse'. Here Clarke is using AA Milne for his send up of Hawke -
Obviousness
Rob Rob Bobbity Bobbity James Lee Hawke M.P.
Took great care of his image because he was quick to see
That if you are photographed standing with blokes
Whose boats do well on the sea,
Millions of voters will fail to notice
The blokes will be charging a fee.
Obviousness
Rob Rob Bobbity Bobbity James Lee Hawke M.P.
Took great care of his image because he was quick to see
That if you are photographed standing with blokes
Whose boats do well on the sea,
Millions of voters will fail to notice
The blokes will be charging a fee.
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Maui, I was simply making the point that Australian never flew B767s. I am aware that the dispute over engineers was on Ansett B767s.
For the record, I was on course during the dispute and was contacted by chain phone call by a Senior Check Captain and advised that we were all resigning.
When I questioned the sanity of that proposition he simply said I would never complete my training if I didnt comply.
Thats a threat to my way of thinking.
Why pilots involved in that debacle continue to take the event personally and not realize the strategic imperative that drove the government and ACTU is a mystery.
There was no way that the government was ever going to let 1600 airline pilots destroy an Accord that had been their principal policy tool since 1983.
Its that simple.
Will Hawke go to his grave thinking it was worth it?
Absolutely yes.
For the record, I was on course during the dispute and was contacted by chain phone call by a Senior Check Captain and advised that we were all resigning.
When I questioned the sanity of that proposition he simply said I would never complete my training if I didnt comply.
Thats a threat to my way of thinking.
Why pilots involved in that debacle continue to take the event personally and not realize the strategic imperative that drove the government and ACTU is a mystery.
There was no way that the government was ever going to let 1600 airline pilots destroy an Accord that had been their principal policy tool since 1983.
Its that simple.
Will Hawke go to his grave thinking it was worth it?
Absolutely yes.
aahhh . .. . George . .. . you obviously did not lose a loved one. (And you appear to be discounting or ignoring the multiple ill effects of unresolved stress. You also seem to hold Hawke in some esteem. I think your view is simplistic . (You say as much). It reminds me of the blind faith and "he's really not a bad bloke, deep down" that many Queenslanders held in Joh, come-what-may. )
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One wonders whether the union strategy and tactics may have varied a little by dint of popular pressure .... had all the pilot players the benefit of a general communications facility such as PPRuNe back at that time ?
A dreadful episode all round and, as a poster suggested earlier, probably no-one really came out a winner. One can only hope that the Industry never again has to weather such a storm.
A dreadful episode all round and, as a poster suggested earlier, probably no-one really came out a winner. One can only hope that the Industry never again has to weather such a storm.
The Hawke Labor government also did untold damage to Australia's Fleet Air Arm prior to the Dispute. Grumman Trackers parked and left to rot in the open at Nowra for decades. The very capable Skyhawks given to New Zealand (then rented back later with RNZAF crews due to the capability gap). Nowra's economy took a huge hit.
After being involved in both these events, I find it difficult not to feel some sense of closure at this man's forthcoming demise.
After being involved in both these events, I find it difficult not to feel some sense of closure at this man's forthcoming demise.
During the recent fracas with AIPA when Geoff Dixon was CEO he approached Greg Combet with the words "will you step aside while we take on the pilots, it will be over in three days, it will be quicker than 89!". Greg said no because AIPA was affiliated with the ACTU. Maybe if that had been the case in 89 the outcome could have been different. As I said before Hawke began the corruption of the Labor party which continues today.
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[QUOTE=busdriver007;10348473]During the recent fracas with AIPA when Geoff Dixon was CEO he approached Greg Combet with the words "will you step aside while we take on the pilots, it will be over in three days, it will be quicker than 89!". Greg said no because AIPA was affiliated with the ACTU. Maybe if that had been the case in 89 the outcome could have been different. As I said before Hawke began the corruption of the Labor party which continues today.[/QUOTE
I believe the AIPA pilots can thank a very astute gentleman with the initials of “BW “ for doing the legwork to get that affiliation up and running.
No easy task convincing quite a few CoM members of the tactical advantages associated with such an affiliation , I was told!
So usually someone who has “served their country” like he woukd claim to have done is offered a state funeral. I would hate to think that he will be (once again) robing the nations tax payers.
#nostatefuneralforbob
#nostatefuneralforbob
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Sadly our corrupt Govt will no doubt offer BH a state funeral, that will be the ultimate insult to the families that lost loves one thru suicide & had their lives destroyed whilst Bob went on to be a hero in many eyes. At least when the grubby media have wonderful Bob's face plastered all over the front pages it will signal that he no longer can harm anyone, it will have been an era of Australian corruption that we have not seen since !
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You blokes can sure wallow in it.Have you ever thought of the lives destroyed because of the actions of the pilots?The ones that had tourist businesses in the north and in places like Tasmania.Went broke,lost the lot when the planes didnt arrive.A few suicides there i bet.According to Brad Norrington who wrote Sky Pirates you bought all upon yourselves.As someone said elsewhere Hawke wasnt going to have a wage breakout and the accord destroyed by a bunch of pilots.Wake up to yourselves and face facts.
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Fantome, I'm saying now what I said to McCarthy and Raby to their faces at the time.
I was off work for a year and almost bankrupted.
I'll say it again. AFAP leadership was out of their depth.
What happened was primarily their responsibility.
The only reason to keep banging on about it 30 years later is that it still stands as an example of how NOT to run an industrial campaign.
Anybody who derives satisfaction from the passing of Hawke is a sad individual.
I was off work for a year and almost bankrupted.
I'll say it again. AFAP leadership was out of their depth.
What happened was primarily their responsibility.
The only reason to keep banging on about it 30 years later is that it still stands as an example of how NOT to run an industrial campaign.
Anybody who derives satisfaction from the passing of Hawke is a sad individual.
To those who would dance on Hawke’s grave, two questions. Which Prime Minister, President or Benevolent Dictator, in a non communist country and in the same situation, would have done differently? What would they have done? Rolling over not an acceptable answer.
While no fan of Hawke or the Labor Party, I believe that he deserves some respect. He will go down in history as one deeply flawed individual, who nevertheless achieved a lot. Certainly head and shoulders above most Labor leaders.
While no fan of Hawke or the Labor Party, I believe that he deserves some respect. He will go down in history as one deeply flawed individual, who nevertheless achieved a lot. Certainly head and shoulders above most Labor leaders.
in the same situation, would have done differently? What would they have done? Rolling over not an acceptable answer.