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Hawke Ailing?

Old 29th Dec 2018, 09:56
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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I think the general feeling is that once the old silver tailed rat is buried then the hatred can start to heal! He can join his bed mate Abels! Hawke was nearly killed from a motor bike accident in his teens, imagine the change of history had he not survived to make a very ugly mark on Australia's political history!
History is now etched in stone, hopefully on his headstone!
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Old 29th Dec 2018, 10:48
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by machtuk View Post
I think the general feeling is that once the old silver tailed rat is buried then the hatred can start to heal! He can join his bed mate Abels! Hawke was nearly killed from a motor bike accident in his teens, imagine the change of history had he not survived to make a very ugly mark on Australia's political history!
History is now etched in stone, hopefully on his headstone!
And Pilot Terms and Conditions and Pay across the World today, say he was correct.

Unless Bob ruled the the World of aviation and made the rest follow.
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Old 29th Dec 2018, 11:04
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Originally Posted by Fantome View Post
There were moderates in the AFAP, whose ability to hold confidential talks, before the law suits, with the men on the other side , from the PM down, has not been recognised or documented. The Hawke/Abeles collusion has also not been considered in any depth.

When Abeles confronted members of the AFAP in his office, his foul and abusive language, and the thug-like threats that he made, are recorded in diary entries made by some of the pilots in the forefront of the fray.

Wrong, redned . .. . . .contract negotiations of expired contracts had stalled. The AFAP executive sought a means to force the airlines to the arbitration table. It was dicks like Norington who put about the lie of 30% pay claims.

you are correct . It was 27%
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Old 29th Dec 2018, 12:21
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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I was there in 89. One of the worst mistakes of my carer signing that crap letter of resignation under intense pressure from those that should have know better. Those there will know what I'm talking about.
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Old 29th Dec 2018, 17:21
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under intense pressure from those that should have know better
It is impossible at this remove to fully understand what persuaded the AFAP executive to accept what they thought
was the very best advice from a top silk. Could anyone, with even half a brain and a crystal ball at the time, predict that the RAAF would be called in and that scores of overseas airline pilots and their own airlines would be offered lucrative contracts to fly in and be in effect strike breakers. (But, as has been pointed out time and time again,on a technicality, there was never any strike as such.)

Last edited by Fantome; 29th Dec 2018 at 20:19.
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Old 29th Dec 2018, 18:53
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Originally Posted by ramble on View Post
From what I hear, his grave site will be cheap to upkeep - there wont be any need to water or fertilise it..
Is that the one booked next to the lying rodents plot?
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Old 29th Dec 2018, 19:45
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Is my memory correct that the 27% included a "catch-up" component due to previous freezes on the then CPI increases over the years? (It may not have been automatic CPI increases as such like today but increases nonetheless awarded by some wages commission/authority etc - someone can elaborate on that aspect).

IIRC, if the percentage CPI increase exceeded a certain dollar figure, then any increase was capped at that figure. Over time and in real terms, this effectively meant a slow erosion of salaries for those higher incomes.
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Old 29th Dec 2018, 20:53
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Originally Posted by witwiw View Post
Is my memory correct that the 27% included a "catch-up" component due to previous freezes on the then CPI increases over the years? (It may not have been automatic CPI increases as such like today but increases nonetheless awarded by some wages commission/authority etc - someone can elaborate on that aspect).

IIRC, if the percentage CPI increase exceeded a certain dollar figure, then any increase was capped at that figure. Over time and in real terms, this effectively meant a slow erosion of salaries for those higher incomes.
Sounds very contemporary, except if you are a CEO!
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Old 29th Dec 2018, 21:29
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Hawke did give us 17% mortgage rates, as ex airline pilots moved into caravans, and then he retired to a Sydney waterfront mansion.
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Old 30th Dec 2018, 00:17
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Sad to see on an Aviation website such disgusting comments on the possible passing and aftermath of an ailing old person.
Eventually Australian airlines would have needed to conform to the economic reality’s of global aviation.
Insisting on a Flight Engineer on the then new technology 2 crew flight deck on Australian operated A300s perhaps, comes to mind.
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Old 30th Dec 2018, 02:28
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"It is impossible at this remove to fully understand what persuaded the AFAP executive to accept what they thought
was the very best advice from a top silk."

Legal advise is advise, rarely direction. The industrial leadership of the AFAP was well aware of the potentially catastrophic consequences of following that advice. The Pilot leadership overruled them.
Its all ancient history now but its still a salutary lesson for a younger generation in the consequences of arrogance , hubris and plain old lack of judgement by mediocre people in leadership positions. Add to that an inability to empathize with your opponents position and you have a recipe for disaster.
Hawke and Kelty did what they had to do to defend the Wages Accord, and what any competent opponent would have expected them to do.
AFAP leadership were out of their depth. Blaming Hawke or Abeles for their failure is futile.
Younger generations take note.
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Old 30th Dec 2018, 02:33
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Sad to see on an Aviation website such disgusting comments on the possible passing and aftermath of an ailing old person.
”Any Airline boss who sacks an employee for not turning up for work on the day Hawke dies is a bum!”
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Old 30th Dec 2018, 04:43
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Originally Posted by George Glass View Post
Just for the record LeadSled, it might not have been a strike but having a lawsuit slapped on you for breach of contract required a dramatic response. The wrong one as it turned out.
I went through the whole debacle and came to the conclusion long ago that NOBODY came out of that sh#t fight with their reputations enhanced. Incompetence and blind belligerence all round.
I blame AFAP leadership as much as Hawke. Just very sad so many junior pilots, who simply doing as they were told ,suffered so much.
Taught me to trust my own judgement and be very, very careful when you entrust your future to those in "authority".
George Glass,
I largely agree with you, but the domestic leaders had plenty of warning that they could not and would not succeed in taking Hawke head on -- and it was not just a matter of Hawke's ego.
The "wages accord" was central to Labor economic policy, no way were Hawke and Kelty going to allow airline pilots undermine that!! That was the core of the Government position.
The Chairman of the OSB warned of all that, he was (in modern terminology) no-platformed at a mass meeting of domestics in Melbourne.
As for all the "strike breakers", a strategy based on;" We are irreplaceable, the Government can'r do a, b, c and d and we will win" only required the Government to do "a, b,c and d" and you lose.
Said OSB Chairman spelled out exactly what was going to happen if the domestics continued --- he was sadly proved correct in almost every respect.
Tootle pip!!
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Old 30th Dec 2018, 05:17
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cessnapete
Australian operated A300s
methinks you mean B767's.

CC
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Old 30th Dec 2018, 05:53
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Nope, A300B4's
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Old 30th Dec 2018, 07:47
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LeadSled View Post
George Glass,
I largely agree with you, but the domestic leaders had plenty of warning that they could not and would not succeed in taking Hawke head on -- and it was not just a matter of Hawke's ego.
The "wages accord" was central to Labor economic policy, no way were Hawke and Kelty going to allow airline pilots undermine that!! That was the core of the Government position.
The Chairman of the OSB warned of all that, he was (in modern terminology) no-platformed at a mass meeting of domestics in Melbourne.
As for all the "strike breakers", a strategy based on;" We are irreplaceable, the Government can'r do a, b, c and d and we will win" only required the Government to do "a, b,c and d" and you lose.
Said OSB Chairman spelled out exactly what was going to happen if the domestics continued --- he was sadly proved correct in almost every respect.
Tootle pip!!
leadsled,
You are correct in essence but being 1989, it was actually the incumbent President of AIPA. I was present at that meeting at the Coburg Town Hall. He explained his reasons based on both Australian and international industrial history as to why he was of the view they wouldn’t succeed and why the Qf pilots wouldn’t be joining them.
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Old 30th Dec 2018, 08:17
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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The queue to pee on Bobs grave will stretch around the next corner for miles, what does that tell us? That Bob will leave a legacy that's etched deep into the ugly history of aviation that he was part of & responsible for, that cannot be denied no matter how naive some are !

Last edited by machtuk; 30th Dec 2018 at 19:11.
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Old 30th Dec 2018, 08:28
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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This despicable grub and his mates put a pay rise for themselves through in late '88 that was larger than the famous 29.47%. The golliwog is no better.
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Old 30th Dec 2018, 10:33
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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My understanding is that at the end of the "strike" the pay rise given to the pilots was greater than that than was asked before the dispute.

But it was actually a concession on work/hours/rosters that was required to get the large pay increase for the pilots.

Give and take is required in negotiations - arrogance is not.

What is arrogance?

Many would say SLF are arrogant, others the persons that termed the phrase SLF as being the arrogant ones.

Bottom line is the front of the tube these days care less for the souls behind than in days gone past, in return they are treated the same as they treat others (to a lower standard).

That has nothing to do with Bob - just the general decline in the industry that lives of past glory.
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Old 30th Dec 2018, 13:08
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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If you want to "strike" hold the cards.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart...ain-180962023/

But then accept to never fly again.
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