Network A320

[Transition Layer]

Originally Posted by wheels_down

Boeing last earnings call stated they have backlog until mid next decade.

Virgin started negotiating 737 Max orders back in 2011 and finalised orders the following year. The first one hits the production line in the next half.

Its now at the point where Virgin will have its full 40 fleet of MAXs delivered before QF even gets a single one.

Unfortunately, I envisage the QF Domestic fleet in late 2020s to be made up of 40-50 narrowbody 320s operated by Network and probably another 40 Mainline 797s for Transcon, SYD/MEL/BNE Triangle, The Tasman and thinner Asian routes.

[crosscutter]

Originally Posted by Transition Layer

Unfortunately, I envisage the QF Domestic fleet in late 2020s to be made up of 40-50 narrowbody 320s operated by Network

That would involve a transfer of business which is simply not possible under current legislation. If it was legal it would have been done long ago. It’s that attitude to company threats (remember sign this 787 deal or else) which spread fear and uncertainty. The domestic situation is totally different. This is a transfer of business situation and having this attitude is counterproductive from both the company’s and pilots point of view.

[Transition Layer]

Originally Posted by crosscutter

That would involve a transfer of business which is simply not possible under current legislation. If it was legal it would have been done long ago. It’s that attitude to company threats which spread fear and uncertainty. This is counterproductive from both the company’s and pilots point of view.

I’m not one for scaremongering and like many others I have a lot to lose if that scenario plays out, but it’s already happening, as pointed out in an earlier post. 717s in 2 class configuration on previous mainline routes. The only difference is the “Link” in the name.

[crosscutter]

I understand the reference. I see the reality. However, under the legislation (I’m sure others will know it better than me) existing QF red tail Mainline domestic flying must be maintained reasonably should red tail subsidiary flying increase. For example, say the 737s were needed to do more trans continental flying then the 717s could be used on any route QF like as long as the 737s did the hours. If the 737s hours were cut back (Mainline jobs) then it is illegal for any red tail to fill the void.

Under current legislation what you fear is illegal and what you see is company growth which Mainline does not do. The legal transfer of business has already occurred and that is Jetstar.

[Rated De]

Originally Posted by Icarus2001

Rated De, I agree with the thrust of your posts, however...

If as quoted above QF purchased Network in 2011 (I cannot remember the year) then their timing was definitely ahead of the major boom years. Not behind them. The "boom" years were 2010 to 2015 were they not?

For clarity, the boom 'receipt years' in terms of Iron Ore price etc were according to Australian government data, as you suggest, however by that stage, which is the point of the post, was that the 'build up' phase was very much already in play. The expansion of Network and other charter operators was on the back of the increase in output which commenced most noticeably around 2005. The higher prices for the ore bodies, gas and other mine output accelerated following the 'post GFC' period, but the impact was evident in RBA data from 2005.

This brings me to the surge in mining investment that is currently under way. This is again very broad based across a range of resources, but the core part centres on the large expansion in the iron ore, coal and gas industries. It has been, to a large degree, driven by demand for resources by emerging economies, with China being the most significant. Judged by the pattern in mining investment and commodity prices, the start of this boom can be dated from around 2005. By 2007 and early 2008, it was severely testing the productive capacity and flexibility of the economy. That all changed in the second half of 2008, as the effects of the mining boom were offset by the impact of the global financial crisis. However, now that this has passed, the underlying dynamics of the resource boom are starting to re-appear. -Deputy Governor Ric Battelino February 2010.

Our italics

Network Aviation serves two purposes:

1. Latest subsidiary to scare pilots, particularly those Perth based employed by Qantas mainline
2. A home for the ex JQ A320, which Little Napoleon and Bruce Buchanan decided in 2011 needed replacing, well before their economic life cycle.

The economics don't matter, the intention is to convince pilots that there is ample supply at prices Qantas IR are used to paying.
That the aircraft lay dormant and cost a lot on static display, is all part of the cost to be borne to win the next battle in reductions in pilot terms and conditions.

It is a dated approach and ignores the building demographic shortages, but to Qantas IR it is a battle they will fight irrespective of the true cost in other people's money.

[George Glass]

Lots of conspiracy theories flying around but the simple explanation is that mining companies dont want the business class configuration of mainline B737s. Never have. They put up with it when capacity was tight and iron ore was $100 a tonne. Nor do they like being second priority when there is network disruption. It has always been thus in mining and oil. The previous 10 years were an aberration.

[Check_Thrust]

crosscutter:
That would involve a transfer of business which is simply not possible under current legislation.

I do not doubt what you say is true, however are you or anyone else able to point me to the legislation for my own education on the topic? Thanks in advance.

[Rated De]

Broome, Newman, Solomon, Port Hedland, Karratha and Broome. Broome is mostly on the weekends, where they are using it in place of a 717 on Friday, Saturday and Sunday services to appease the state government's desire for cheaper fares.

And a check of Qantas historical route schedule would show these routes largely once flown by 737 on Qantas terms and conditions.

Lots of conspiracy theories flying around but the simple explanation is that mining companies dont want the business class configuration of mainline B737s. Never have. They put up with it when capacity was tight and iron ore was $100 a tonne. Nor do they like being second priority when there is network disruption. It has always been thus in mining and oil. The previous 10 years were an aberration.

Not really a conspiracy there George. Given the state of play in world commodities it is unlikely a 'boom' in mine charter is on the cards. Those ports referenced by other posters carried a mix of private FIFO workers and general RPT traffic load.

Network are supposed, according to corporate sources, absorb multiple JQ aircraft that as a result of a botched 'megaphone diplomacy' order by Little Napoleon in 2011 see another 100 odd aircraft destined for JQ.

Is immaterial whether it works economically, industrially is the focus, is anyone really surprised when time after time the same play book rolls out?

[crosscutter]

Originally Posted by Check_Thrust

I do not doubt what you say is true, however are you or anyone else able to point me to the legislation for my own education on the topic? Thanks in advance.

It is enshrined as a guiding principle in the Fair Work Act with respect to EBA’s.

And to quote the CEO....”Under the Fair Work Act, companies are prevented from taking work away (e.g. reducing total flying hours) from a particular group and giving it to another group in order to circumvent an EBA.”

[George Glass]

RD, During the last boom traffic to Karratha Port Hedland etc. was almost all FIFO. Demand for business class was zero. Broome has always struggled. There is a small market for business class during the east coast winter but its small. West coasters prefer Bali. Miners returning to purpose designed chart carriers is reversion to the norm of the previous 30 years, not a conspiracy.

[Icarus2001]

West coasters prefer Bali.

A destination where Australian carriers appear to have raised the white flag.

[longjohn]

Originally Posted by Icarus2001

A destination where Australian carriers appear to have raised the white flag.

huh?

JQ/ QF and Virgin all operate to Bali. JQ operating out of every major city ie 3 x daily from Perth alone.

what do you mean Icarus?

[Icarus2001]

Have a look at what is available from Australia to Bali with Australian carriers. Then have a look at what is available from foreign carriers.

Part of a wider malaise. Last year there were over 815,000 Australian visitors to Thailand. Now have a look at Australian airlines offering direct flights to Thailand.

Malaysia, Japan...

[bolthead]

What % of flights to Bali are operated by JQ Aussie compared to JQ Asia?

[wheels_down]

All flights are AU metal. Tech crew are Australian based however cabin crew are not.

9V birds only fly to Darwin from Singapore.

Part of a wider malaise. Last year there were over 815,000 Australian visitors to Thailand. Now have a look at Australian airlines offering direct flights to Thailand.

Malaysia, Japan...

JQ/QF do fly direct Thailand and have considerable direct flights to Japan so I still don’t get your point here.

Japan and Nippon have been missing in action until only recently

AirAsia pulled its A330s off Bali to Sydney and Melbourne. And they have considerable feed on the other end.

Your point is what exactly?

[airdualbleedfault]

And a check of Qantas historical route schedule would show these routes largely once flown by 737 on Qantas terms and conditions.

Actually Rated de I think you will find history shows that those intra WA routes were operated by National Jet/Qantaslink from 1995 in the 146 and it was a long time before any 737 operated those routes

[Icarus2001]

JQ/QF do fly direct Thailand and have considerable direct flights to Japan so I still don’t get your point here.

Indeed. Have a good look at which flights are operated by Jetstar then at QF, finally look at how many are codeshare on another carrier.

Now have a look at Virgin flights from Sydney or Melbourne. The West coast is worse. The only direct flight from Perth to Bangkok is Thai Airways. QF and VA do not bother. The same with KL, no service from our flag carrier and their duopoly partner. They leave it to Malaysia, Air Asia and Malindo.

Like I said, they raised the white flag.

[Transition Layer]

Originally Posted by airdualbleedfault

Actually Rated de I think you will find history shows that those intra WA routes were operated by National Jet/Qantaslink from 1995 in the 146 and it was a long time before any 737 operated those routes

It’s called growth, modernisation and pax comfort, none of which happens when an F100 takes over a route from a B737.

Its also the same reason B707s don’t fly across the Pacific with 3 stops to LA anymore

[Icarus2001]

none of which happens when an F100 takes over a route from a B737.

Hahaha even Uber have standards. The vehicle must be under ten years old.

https://www.uber.com/en-AU/drive/per...-requirements/

[airdualbleedfault]

Nice TL, completely off the topic of my answer to Rated de . The NJS 146s were flying those routes for 10 years before a single 737 set tyres on WA regional soil so once again for the cheap seats, no, history does not show those routes were operated by the 737