Tamworth selected for VA training school
Tamworth selected for VA training school
https://www.northerndailyleader.com.au/story/5731815/breaking-virgin-to-set-up-world-class-training-school-in-tamworth/
It would seem Qantas aren't the only ones establishing flying schools. This was kept pretty quiet....
It would seem Qantas aren't the only ones establishing flying schools. This was kept pretty quiet....
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Quite a contrast to the Fort Fumble approach of media spin, poorly disguised info-mercials and endless dribble.
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If you're going to do it, why do it quietly?
Unless it was a cloak and dagger approach to secure staff (or the location) out from under QF's nose.
This might be a good thing, a monopoly of the scale QF is proposing can't be good for either instructors or students.
Unless it was a cloak and dagger approach to secure staff (or the location) out from under QF's nose.
This might be a good thing, a monopoly of the scale QF is proposing can't be good for either instructors or students.
The prospect of both the Virgin and QANTAS pilot training academies are certainly quite interesting, especially considering that the locations seem to be in regional cities.
The plus side for the airlines is obviously the amount of cash that the local / state governments are willing to throw in, plus any private money ala the Wagners in Toowoomba.
However I would imagine the practicalities of running flight training schools and trying to retain qualified (and more importantly experienced) instructor and engineering staff will quickly become apparent. Training 100 pilots a year will require in the order of 20-30 Instructors. I simply can’t see where these people will come from. All you have to do is look at CAE and their expansion into Tamworth - they are constantly advertising for Instructors up there, and I believe they are currently flying Flight Test Examiners from Melbourne to do student flight tests. The airlines would have to offer a fairly big carrot to retain staff (essentially they would have to offer positions at the end of a return of service), but I don’t see that as being likely.
It certainly will be interesting to see when these schools will get off the ground, and how they will be travelling 2-3 years into their operation.
The plus side for the airlines is obviously the amount of cash that the local / state governments are willing to throw in, plus any private money ala the Wagners in Toowoomba.
However I would imagine the practicalities of running flight training schools and trying to retain qualified (and more importantly experienced) instructor and engineering staff will quickly become apparent. Training 100 pilots a year will require in the order of 20-30 Instructors. I simply can’t see where these people will come from. All you have to do is look at CAE and their expansion into Tamworth - they are constantly advertising for Instructors up there, and I believe they are currently flying Flight Test Examiners from Melbourne to do student flight tests. The airlines would have to offer a fairly big carrot to retain staff (essentially they would have to offer positions at the end of a return of service), but I don’t see that as being likely.
It certainly will be interesting to see when these schools will get off the ground, and how they will be travelling 2-3 years into their operation.
Training means more jobs for pilots/engineers/ground staff/admin and money for the community. Not everyone wants to punt an airliner around the magenta lines for a living...
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Flying schools are producing plenty of CPLA’s, but few that can do a P chart correctly, do a basic radio call, or land an airplane.
Tio,
Unfortunately it's big vet fee help schools like the ones Qantas and Virgin are building that are the worst offenders for putting out bad product.
Virgin and Qantas will skim the cream and GA will be left to pick up the pieces when dozens of kids are told that even though you spent $150k you are not up to our standard.
Unfortunately it's big vet fee help schools like the ones Qantas and Virgin are building that are the worst offenders for putting out bad product.
Virgin and Qantas will skim the cream and GA will be left to pick up the pieces when dozens of kids are told that even though you spent $150k you are not up to our standard.
Like it or lump it if you want to get a start in one of the two major airline groups in Australia you are now probably going to have to attend either of their academies. I can’t see VA taking over an entire airport’s well established training facility to only churn out a handful of trainees per year. The total number of trainees that are being talked about would be more than enough to cover most of each group’s required numbers.
Will every graduate of one of these academies get a start in a major airline? No but most will.
Will every new hire at a major airline come from the respective academy? No but again most will.
There will still be an alternative path to enter a major airline but it will become very narrow after both academies are up and running.
Yes I do have evidence Mr Dre. I used to to do pre employment checkrides and my opinion was bigger the school the less the skills.
One large provider in Melbourne doesn't allow landing on dirt or grass. Tailwind landings or night PIC outside the circuit area. Most are thoroughly disappointed when they don't get into "insert name of airline" upon graduation.
We will turn into the USA pre 2015 when any person with a CPL/IR could be a crew member on aircraft operated under part 121. People with a fresh licence were flying E170's around for $2000 a month.
As another poster said, this isn't about any make believe shortage it's about controlling costs.
One large provider in Melbourne doesn't allow landing on dirt or grass. Tailwind landings or night PIC outside the circuit area. Most are thoroughly disappointed when they don't get into "insert name of airline" upon graduation.
We will turn into the USA pre 2015 when any person with a CPL/IR could be a crew member on aircraft operated under part 121. People with a fresh licence were flying E170's around for $2000 a month.
As another poster said, this isn't about any make believe shortage it's about controlling costs.
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Tio,
Unfortunately it's big vet fee help schools like the ones Qantas and Virgin are building that are the worst offenders for putting out bad product.
Virgin and Qantas will skim the cream and GA will be left to pick up the pieces when dozens of kids are told that even though you spent $150k you are not up to our standard.
Unfortunately it's big vet fee help schools like the ones Qantas and Virgin are building that are the worst offenders for putting out bad product.
Virgin and Qantas will skim the cream and GA will be left to pick up the pieces when dozens of kids are told that even though you spent $150k you are not up to our standard.
Quote: Virgin and QF will skim the cream?
QF just knocked back a couple of hundred good pilots, from all sorts of levels in general aviation, during the most recent pilot recruitment,
a few months ago.
Quote: Dozens of kids are told that even though you spent $150K you are not up to our standard?
A person cannot expect to be up to airline standard, after only, flying a Piper warrior, Cessna 172, Duchess/Seneca.
Where's the IFR, night, turbine, glass cockpit experience?
A CPL is just an entry level qualification.
Unless a person is airline sponsored, experience and hours are needed to get to bigger and better things.
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Yes I do have evidence Mr Dre. I used to to do pre employment checkrides and my opinion was bigger the school the less the skills.
One large provider in Melbourne doesn't allow landing on dirt or grass. Tailwind landings or night PIC outside the circuit area. Most are thoroughly disappointed when they don't get into "insert name of airline" upon graduation.
We will turn into the USA pre 2015 when any person with a CPL/IR could be a crew member on aircraft operated under part 121. People with a fresh licence were flying E170's around for $2000 a month.
As another poster said, this isn't about any make believe shortage it's about controlling costs.
One large provider in Melbourne doesn't allow landing on dirt or grass. Tailwind landings or night PIC outside the circuit area. Most are thoroughly disappointed when they don't get into "insert name of airline" upon graduation.
We will turn into the USA pre 2015 when any person with a CPL/IR could be a crew member on aircraft operated under part 121. People with a fresh licence were flying E170's around for $2000 a month.
As another poster said, this isn't about any make believe shortage it's about controlling costs.
We will turn into the USA pre 2015 when any person with a CPL/IR could be a crew member on aircraft operated under part 121. People with a fresh licence were flying E170's around for $2000 a month.
You will find, that U.S regional airlines, always hired new F/O's, pre 2015, that had up to 800 hours experience.
It's rare, that someone got into a regional, with just the basic CPL/IR qualifications.
I personally suspect this is not an "Airline academy" so much as a branded retail exercise - another money making subsidiary business trading off the reputation of the parent company. These Big-Brand sausage factories will turn out big-brand sausages.
Then again, I am old and cynical.
I have been told that Qlink have gone to some effort to improve the product from FTA and nurture the best candidates to ensure good skills on graduation. Maybe I will be proven wrong.
Then again, I am old and cynical.
I have been told that Qlink have gone to some effort to improve the product from FTA and nurture the best candidates to ensure good skills on graduation. Maybe I will be proven wrong.
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I would imagine there would be ways to secure sufficient supply of instructors if you possess they key to something they want.... e.g. an airline job after a couple of years instructing.
They could also possibly retain some of their graduates, put them through an instructors course with the “reward” of a better opportunity - e.g. straight into a jet rather than a turbo-prop afterwards, and a frozen seniority position.
That wouldn’t solve the issue of senior instructors and examiners, but simple $$$ could fix that.
Don’t forget, both VA and QF are doing this mainly to ensure pilot supply for their lower-paid subsidiaries, not so much their mainline jet operations. Mainline jet jobs will remain a large carrot if they need one.
As for standards, if the airlines have a vested interest in the quality of the graduates, this should be good for training standards shouldn’t it? Why would they want to churn out poorly trained pilots? Of course this may depend upon the terms of the contract they have with the contracted training organisation, and whether the airline maintains any involvement in the training and standards, and perhaps who foots the bill if a student needs extra training to meet a standard.
They would also get to choose the applicants. Any mug with $150K can do a CPL course, only to be told at the end of it that they are unemployable by an airline. Wouldn’t it be better to be told beforehand that you would never stand a chance of a job with an airline?
I also doubt that this will become the only route into the airlines. Why would they close other doors? It is very healthy for an airline to have a range of backgrounds in their pilots. For example, I just found myself considering the range of backgrounds in the QF management. The current head of training is ex-TN, the previous ex-Military, and I think the one before that may have been a cadet. People are people, whatever route you have taken, there will be a range of candidate quality.
They could also possibly retain some of their graduates, put them through an instructors course with the “reward” of a better opportunity - e.g. straight into a jet rather than a turbo-prop afterwards, and a frozen seniority position.
That wouldn’t solve the issue of senior instructors and examiners, but simple $$$ could fix that.
Don’t forget, both VA and QF are doing this mainly to ensure pilot supply for their lower-paid subsidiaries, not so much their mainline jet operations. Mainline jet jobs will remain a large carrot if they need one.
As for standards, if the airlines have a vested interest in the quality of the graduates, this should be good for training standards shouldn’t it? Why would they want to churn out poorly trained pilots? Of course this may depend upon the terms of the contract they have with the contracted training organisation, and whether the airline maintains any involvement in the training and standards, and perhaps who foots the bill if a student needs extra training to meet a standard.
They would also get to choose the applicants. Any mug with $150K can do a CPL course, only to be told at the end of it that they are unemployable by an airline. Wouldn’t it be better to be told beforehand that you would never stand a chance of a job with an airline?
I also doubt that this will become the only route into the airlines. Why would they close other doors? It is very healthy for an airline to have a range of backgrounds in their pilots. For example, I just found myself considering the range of backgrounds in the QF management. The current head of training is ex-TN, the previous ex-Military, and I think the one before that may have been a cadet. People are people, whatever route you have taken, there will be a range of candidate quality.
Last edited by Derfred; 2nd Nov 2018 at 12:18.