Air Niugini 737 overun at Guam
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I'm glad the lack of rain repellent is mentioned, although the hydrophobic coating is better than nothing if it is fresh. Do PX have the coating? The B737 windscreen is difficult to see through with water on the windows in even moderate rain, the wipers only giving you a "flash" of vision as they sweep.
Actual forward visibility through the window vs stationary observer vis is another issue. A stationary observer measurement can meet the requirements without being concerned by rain on the windows. There are scenario's where you can get visual at the MAP on minimum visibility, but have not yet flown into the shower, then hit the "wall of water" and have the window obscured by the water and you lose visual reference suddenly. As pilots, we are concerned with actual forward vision through the window, not some stationary measurement.
At least with HUD equipped 737's the LHS should be getting a series of snapshots with the wiper sweep of the runway without having change their focus from inside to outside (takes a finite time to accommodate the focal length change, increases with age) at a crucial point with difficult forward vision.
I'm not suggesting these issues came into play in this accident, just the type of issues that the B737 has with its flat windows and rainfall in the visual segment.
Actual forward visibility through the window vs stationary observer vis is another issue. A stationary observer measurement can meet the requirements without being concerned by rain on the windows. There are scenario's where you can get visual at the MAP on minimum visibility, but have not yet flown into the shower, then hit the "wall of water" and have the window obscured by the water and you lose visual reference suddenly. As pilots, we are concerned with actual forward vision through the window, not some stationary measurement.
At least with HUD equipped 737's the LHS should be getting a series of snapshots with the wiper sweep of the runway without having change their focus from inside to outside (takes a finite time to accommodate the focal length change, increases with age) at a crucial point with difficult forward vision.
I'm not suggesting these issues came into play in this accident, just the type of issues that the B737 has with its flat windows and rainfall in the visual segment.
Last edited by FYSTI; 3rd Oct 2018 at 04:53.
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The problem at PX is greater than 1 crew possibly breaking minimum and crashing a plane,
Why after 5 years of having the 737 fleet are they not approved for GNSS, Why do Captains who struggled on the Fokker fleet now flourish in the 737 fleet, Why has the training department been slashed to a fraction of its previous budget.
A lot of the answers to these questions and many more are a result of the piss poor management practice of Foo and
Taufa.
Foo was warned directly 2 years ago that FSM was going to end in tears if they continued to cut corners.
They ignored it...........
Why after 5 years of having the 737 fleet are they not approved for GNSS, Why do Captains who struggled on the Fokker fleet now flourish in the 737 fleet, Why has the training department been slashed to a fraction of its previous budget.
A lot of the answers to these questions and many more are a result of the piss poor management practice of Foo and
Taufa.
Foo was warned directly 2 years ago that FSM was going to end in tears if they continued to cut corners.
They ignored it...........
But it's not just them but the current CEO King Julien and the current EMFO CM who were an intricate part of the previous management team.
One could also add the top two in the Boeing fleet office GG and KR who allowed standards to slip and always bent in the breeze to managements whims. Never saying a word.
Congratulations one and all for a job well done I am sure you are celebrating.
Let's just hope that when the investigation really gets underway that the fleet managers tell the truth about the constant interfering of senior management on who gets what job and who passes tests that they have really failed.
IMHO this interferance is the very start of the holes aligning.
We all knew it was occurring but nothing was ever done about it. We all knew there was an accident waiting to happen and and now it has. Will it be the last? Not if the current interferance continues.
Maybe, just maybe if people tell the truth there is a chance, but I doubt it.
IMHO this interferance is the very start of the holes aligning.
We all knew it was occurring but nothing was ever done about it. We all knew there was an accident waiting to happen and and now it has. Will it be the last? Not if the current interferance continues.
Maybe, just maybe if people tell the truth there is a chance, but I doubt it.
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And yet, there is now a new artificial reef in the lagoon, so apparently some groups didn't get that memo. Thing is, humans continuously breach rules in small and large extents, with best of intentions and for other reasons. Sometimes, the fact that humans do not follow rules well is the reason that outcomes are successful. The crew at PTKK probably didn't wake up in the morning thinking it was a great day to go swimming and revalidate their SEP's.
People bust rules, hardware just busts. Question is from a systems view how to harden the operation to assure outcomes don't include tears or repacking of liferafts.
People bust rules, hardware just busts. Question is from a systems view how to harden the operation to assure outcomes don't include tears or repacking of liferafts.
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[QUOTE=DHC8 Driver;10264633]
I totally agree with you. That’s why aviation requires strict oversight, auditing and enforcement. If you want to find where the holes in the cheese start look at the regulator - so cozy in bed with the management at ANG. I just wish the top cats at ICAO would read this forum and decide to do a proper and thorough audit of PNG CASA. Then they would ban every PNG carrier from international operations.
I totally agree with you. That’s why aviation requires strict oversight, auditing and enforcement. If you want to find where the holes in the cheese start look at the regulator - so cozy in bed with the management at ANG. I just wish the top cats at ICAO would read this forum and decide to do a proper and thorough audit of PNG CASA. Then they would ban every PNG carrier from international operations.
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Care to elaborate? 
ASN showing only 2 – PXY at Madang, and PXE at Chuuk. Airfleets.net showing one (PXY), but that’s not been updated to include PXE.Not too sure if the BBQ at Mendi can be attributed to PX either, because the aircraft was on the ground shut down at the time of the event, and from what I heard, the BBQ was beyond the control of PX. So I don’t really think that one counts. I’d really like to know about the other 3 in the last ten years though.
ASN showing only 2 – PXY at Madang, and PXE at Chuuk. Airfleets.net showing one (PXY), but that’s not been updated to include PXE.Not too sure if the BBQ at Mendi can be attributed to PX either, because the aircraft was on the ground shut down at the time of the event, and from what I heard, the BBQ was beyond the control of PX. So I don’t really think that one counts. I’d really like to know about the other 3 in the last ten years though.
C-19, the original statement which resulted in my query was:
My bolding.
You obviously know more than I do about Air Niugini, but I can't see how the Mendi hull loss event involved pilot error. Certainly it raises questions about Air Niugini's Security system and why it appears to have failed to meet the requirements of PNG CAR Part 108.53 (a), but to pin the event on the pilot seems a bit far-fetched.
Including the very recent DHC8 BBQ at Mendi, PX has now lost FIVE (5) hulls in less than a decade - pilot error in them all with the 737 yet to be decided maybe
You obviously know more than I do about Air Niugini, but I can't see how the Mendi hull loss event involved pilot error. Certainly it raises questions about Air Niugini's Security system and why it appears to have failed to meet the requirements of PNG CAR Part 108.53 (a), but to pin the event on the pilot seems a bit far-fetched.
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After it was banned by the greenies we used to use RAINEX bought at car shops. Before engine start you would open the pilots window and leaning out as far as possible rub the RAINEX on a piece of cloth on the window. It was better than the manufacturer supplied rain repellent and lasted longer. We carried a spare bottle in our nav bags.
Anyone read today's Australian article where a couple of pax describe the chaos? Couldn't find life jackets, crew didn't open emergency exits or take control of the situation etc etc just pure chaos it seems.
PX just announced body recovered, despite earlier reports that all pax and 12 crew survived. BTW what do 12 pax do on a 738 with 35 pax? Seems like a lean operation...
BTW what do 12 pax do on a 738 with 35 pax?
If you haven’t already, check out the footage on the Rumours and News sub-forum, where the USN personnel race to the aircraft to find ONE overwing exit open (on the starboard side, anyway) and no great urgency to get off a 737 IN THE WATER! You can even see the pilots contemplating their careers (or the lack thereof) whilst the aircraft (note, not a BOAT) bobs in the water. When you ditch in the sea, get out via the front exits - quickly. Personally, I reckon this was appalling and the loss of life, given the numbers of crew and pax, inexcusable...
Retired too early said...
I questioned that:
C19 then bought into the thread:
My response:
C-19, the original statement which resulted in my query was:My bolding.
I also said: You obviously know more than I do about Air Niugini, but I can't see how the Mendi hull loss event involved pilot error. Certainly it raises questions about Air Niugini's Security system and why it appears to have failed to meet the requirements of PNG CAR Part 108.53 (a), but to pin the event on the pilot seems a bit far-fetched.
C19 - you need to substantiate your assertions. And Retired too Early too.....otherwise understand that your post(s) are going to be challenged?
Retired too Early STILL waiting on your evidence that
Including the very recent DHC8 BBQ at Mendi, PX has now lost FIVE (5) hulls in less than a decade - pilot error in them all with the 737 yet to be decided maybe -and dare I say it but after 25 years with PX, I can assure you all that the C & T is a major concern to everybody in the pilot corp!
Care to elaborate? ASN showing only 2 – PXY at Madang, and PXE at Chuuk. Airfleets.net showing one (PXY), but that’s not been updated to include PXE.Not too sure if the BBQ at Mendi can be attributed to PX either, because the aircraft was on the ground shut down at the time of the event, and from what I heard, the BBQ was beyond the control of PX. So I don’t really think that one counts. I’d really like to know about the other 3 in the last ten years though.
ASN showing only 2 – PXY at Madang, and PXE at Chuuk. Airfleets.net showing one (PXY), but that’s not been updated to include PXE.Not too sure if the BBQ at Mendi can be attributed to PX either, because the aircraft was on the ground shut down at the time of the event, and from what I heard, the BBQ was beyond the control of PX. So I don’t really think that one counts. I’d really like to know about the other 3 in the last ten years though.
Actually it should. PX had received reports of Civil Unrest at Mendi airport and actually cancelled the earlier flight for those reasons. A shift change later and someones decision to send the flight in question should be a case for negligence
C-19, the original statement which resulted in my query was:
Quote:Including the very recent DHC8 BBQ at Mendi, PX has now lost FIVE (5) hulls in less than a decade - pilot error in them all with the 737 yet to be decided maybe
I also said: You obviously know more than I do about Air Niugini, but I can't see how the Mendi hull loss event involved pilot error. Certainly it raises questions about Air Niugini's Security system and why it appears to have failed to meet the requirements of PNG CAR Part 108.53 (a), but to pin the event on the pilot seems a bit far-fetched.
C19 - you need to substantiate your assertions. And Retired too Early too.....otherwise understand that your post(s) are going to be challenged?
Retired too Early STILL waiting on your evidence that
PX has now lost FIVE (5) hulls in less than a decade - pilot error in them all
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Retired too early said...
I questioned that:
C19 then bought into the thread:
My response:
C-19, the original statement which resulted in my query was:My bolding.
I also said: You obviously know more than I do about Air Niugini, but I can't see how the Mendi hull loss event involved pilot error. Certainly it raises questions about Air Niugini's Security system and why it appears to have failed to meet the requirements of PNG CAR Part 108.53 (a), but to pin the event on the pilot seems a bit far-fetched.
C19 - you need to substantiate your assertions. And Retired too Early too.....otherwise understand that your post(s) are going to be challenged?
Retired too Early STILL waiting on your evidence that
I questioned that:
C19 then bought into the thread:
My response:
C-19, the original statement which resulted in my query was:
Quote:Including the very recent DHC8 BBQ at Mendi, PX has now lost FIVE (5) hulls in less than a decade - pilot error in them all with the 737 yet to be decided maybe
I also said: You obviously know more than I do about Air Niugini, but I can't see how the Mendi hull loss event involved pilot error. Certainly it raises questions about Air Niugini's Security system and why it appears to have failed to meet the requirements of PNG CAR Part 108.53 (a), but to pin the event on the pilot seems a bit far-fetched.
C19 - you need to substantiate your assertions. And Retired too Early too.....otherwise understand that your post(s) are going to be challenged?
Retired too Early STILL waiting on your evidence that
P2 PXE B737 September 2018
P2 ANX Dash 8 2018 Civil Unrest
P2 PXY 2013 a Wet leased ATR 42 Freighter Overrun Rejected Take off Madang Unable to rotate
https://aviation-safety.net/database...
P2- ANH F28-1000 1997Gear Collapse on Landing Lae Nadzab Airport
https://aviation-safety.net/database...9971116-02-ANB F28 - 1000
1995 Overrun on Landing in Heavy Rain Madang
https://aviation-safety.net/database...?id=19950531-0
you could add a 6th
P2 ANA F28-100 ( Fokker 100) 2006 Mercury Leak in Hold MtHagen
http://paperlined.org/apps/wikipedia...gAircraft.html
Last edited by tripelapidgeon; 4th Oct 2018 at 14:34.
tripleapidgeon….
Original statement was:
My bolding.
Clearly your definition of a decade differs from mine if you are including events prior to 2009.
I'm in no way defending Air Niugini (or LINK which was the operator of the Mendi aircraft), but trying to pin pilot error on the Mendi 'event' is far fetched. Probably also the landing gear event at Lae and the Mount Hagen mercury leak event.
Anyway, back to the 737 event...………….
Original statement was:
Including the very recent DHC8 BBQ at Mendi, PX has now lost FIVE (5) hulls in less than a decade - pilot error in them all with the 737 yet to be decided maybe
Clearly your definition of a decade differs from mine if you are including events prior to 2009.
I'm in no way defending Air Niugini (or LINK which was the operator of the Mendi aircraft), but trying to pin pilot error on the Mendi 'event' is far fetched. Probably also the landing gear event at Lae and the Mount Hagen mercury leak event.
Anyway, back to the 737 event...………….
Last edited by SIUYA; 4th Oct 2018 at 20:49.