Union representation let down

[Xeptu]

Couldn't agree with you more Whizz. Unfortunately it's not just Airlines and Pilots, it's right across the board in every industry. It is the current state of our industrial architecture. Be at least grateful you are a permanent full time employee. If the Company had it's way you would be casual and or working for a labour hire company on contract.That is something that almost didn't get changed after Work Choices.

[QuarterInchSocket]

Originally Posted by Xeptu

Couldn't agree with you more Whizz. Unfortunately it's not just Airlines and Pilots, it's right across the board in every industry. It is the current state of our industrial architecture. Be at least grateful you are a permanent full time employee. If the Company had it's way you would be casual and or working for a labour hire company on contract.That is something that almost didn't get changed after Work Choices.

bit of a ‘castle built on sand’ kind of scenario though, don’t you think?

yeah, we have full time employment. But slowly and surely, bit by bit, our terms and conditions are being eroded. What are the unions strategies to mitigate this erosion of our position? I can only recommend a strengthened industrial law framework.

As we’ve both highlighted, the legal framework has degraded to the extent that there a fewer options available to unions to yield the sought outcome/s and as a result, unions are now picking and choosing which battles to fight - if at all.

[Xeptu]

Also agree with you entirely, it is indeed a castle built on sand, almost an illusion until the Industrial Architecture is fixed properly. Only a Labor Government can fix it and only then if they need to. It was Bob Hawkes Labor Government that destroyed the nation’s pilot union in the first place and John Howards Liberal Government that destroyed the nation’s Industrial Architecture.
On top of that the Nation doesn’t see pilots as average Australians and for just under half the Industry, we are not.
Contrary to popular belief, the Labor Party is not full of Unionists and is not controlled by the Unions, the same as they do not control your Pilot Group, despite its heavily weighted union membership.
When you say pick and choose their battles, it’s a case of can only fight the enforceable ones for which there are not many. Leave provisions, those that are set in law. Pay, Allowances, harassment and that’s about it.
When your kids leave school and enter the workforce for the first time, then you will truly understand how bad it really is.

[LeadSled]

Originally Posted by Xeptu

Contrary to popular belief, the Labor Party is not full of Unionists and is not controlled by the Unions, the same as they do not control your Pilot Group, despite its heavily weighted union membership.
.

Xeptu,
Whatever koolaid you are quaffing, please lets us know.
The Labor Party was created by the union movement, all but a handful of current Labor parliamentarians, whether Commonwealth or State, are ex-union officials/staffers, Labor is largely financed by unions, and unions completely dominate State and Federal conferences. Rank and file members ( a threatened species) hardly get a real lookin.
The present Fair Work Act is a piece of Labor legislation.
Look up the history of why Shorten is opposition leader, and not Albo.
Tootle pip!!

[Square Bear]

"Contrary to popular belief, the Labor Party is not full of Unionists and is not controlled by the Unions"

Not sure that the Labor party is not full of "unionist", but It was reported that in 2016 45% of the ALP members of parliament were former Union OFFICIALS. At that point it was estimated that only 15% of the workforce were members of a Union.

And whilst the public probably brush of the tactics of the more militant Union actions within the building industry etc, it does not really affect them, thus no real outcry, whereas if there was a repetition of "The Event of 1989", the public would demand hangings as it would impinge of their perceived rights.

Just saying...

[V-Jet]

I believe the lack of strength of 'unions' stems wholly from the western world's addiction to debt. The main aim of everyone starting a career (I believe) should be to set about equaling their income from independent means as soon as possible. What people tend to do is go on the big holiday, buy the car, boat, big house and as soon as they have done that they are 'owned' by their employer completely. I rang the union during the lockout and suggested no-one should return to work (for whatever reason) until Joyce was gone and sensible management installed. The answer I got was that it was a good idea, but very few would be able to exist without their salary for any time at all. I responded I felt we couldn't afford NOT to.

You load up yourself with debt laden trinkets and you can expect to have that situation used against you. Legislation is a certainly a factor, but it couldn't be used the way it has been by the truly abominable and incompetent management of Qantas if people didn't 'need' their Joyce sanctioned salary. Relying on the generosity (not to mention business acumen) from the likes of Joyce is an exercise in abject stupidity!

[Rated De]

I rang the union during the lockout and suggested no-one should return to work (for whatever reason) until Joyce was gone and sensible management installed. The answer I got was that it was a good idea, but very few would be able to exist without their salary for any time at all. I responded I felt we couldn't afford NOT to.

Agree, simply turn the phone off and go for a well earned break, Mr Joyce would have been gone in a week.

You load up yourself with debt laden trinkets and you can expect to have that situation used against you. Legislation is a certainly a factor, but it couldn't be used the way it has been by the truly abominable and incompetent management of Qantas if people didn't 'need' their Joyce sanctioned salary. Relying on the generosity (not to mention business acumen) from the likes of Joyce is an exercise in abject stupidity!

The leverage used relies on this assumption; pilots need every dollar to service their debt load.

[Tankengine]

Originally Posted by V-Jet

I believe the lack of strength of 'unions' stems wholly from the western world's addiction to debt. The main aim of everyone starting a career (I believe) should be to set about equaling their income from independent means as soon as possible. What people tend to do is go on the big holiday, buy the car, boat, big house and as soon as they have done that they are 'owned' by their employer completely. I rang the union during the lockout and suggested no-one should return to work (for whatever reason) until Joyce was gone and sensible management installed. The answer I got was that it was a good idea, but very few would be able to exist without their salary for any time at all. I responded I felt we couldn't afford NOT to.

You load up yourself with debt laden trinkets and you can expect to have that situation used against you. Legislation is a certainly a factor, but it couldn't be used the way it has been by the truly abominable and incompetent management of Qantas if people didn't 'need' their Joyce sanctioned salary. Relying on the generosity (not to mention business acumen) from the likes of Joyce is an exercise in abject stupidity!

Totally agree, the lockout would have been more interesting if every Captain had simply gone home (full fare on other carriers obviously). When the company wanted to resume services after the government folded they would have had to position the crews first and generally wait 12+ hours for min rest.
Joyce’s “great idea” would have resulted in his sacking.

[wombat watcher]

Originally Posted by V-Jet

I believe the lack of strength of 'unions' stems wholly from the western world's addiction to debt. The main aim of everyone starting a career (I believe) should be to set about equaling their income from independent means as soon as possible. What people tend to do is go on the big holiday, buy the car, boat, big house and as soon as they have done that they are 'owned' by their employer completely. I rang the union during the lockout and suggested no-one should return to work (for whatever reason) until Joyce was gone and sensible management installed. The answer I got was that it was a good idea, but very few would be able to exist without their salary for any time at all. I responded I felt we couldn't afford NOT to.

You load up yourself with debt laden trinkets and you can expect to have that situation used against you. Legislation is a certainly a factor, but it couldn't be used the way it has been by the truly abominable and incompetent management of Qantas if people didn't 'need' their Joyce sanctioned salary. Relying on the generosity (not to mention business acumen) from the likes of Joyce is an exercise in abject stupidity!

Sorry to correct you but there was no lockout.
What actually happened was: Joyce threatened a lockout as was his right under Australian industrial law. He went through the process of issuing the lockout notice to longhaul pilots, TWU members and licensed engineers. FWC got involved and defused the lockout during the early hours of the Sunday morning and ordered a mediation. Joyce grounded Qf on the Saturday in the interests of “ safety” while this process was underway. CASA got involved on the Sunday and would not let Qf recommence flying for a few days for the reasons of “ safety”.
No pilot ever got locked out. I’ m sure individuals thought they were.
I’m sure Joyce got just as much surprise when CASA intervened and wouldn’t let him recommence operations on the grounds of “ safety”.

[V-Jet]

I wasn’t allowed into QCC on the Saturday. Technically, I agree, the door wasn’t locked, but security (of middle eastern appearance) told me to leave the area. I did leave ‘on the grounds of safety’. It’s easy to see that being misunderstood.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Wasn’t there a royal commission unit union misconduct some time back?

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp....b3fb06f2edd31d

Fateful trip to luxury Perth car dealer exposes TWU funds misappropriation - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

I feel your frustration Whiz, good luck though.

[mustafagander]

Wombat,
I call your attention to Qantas FSO Admin 062/11 which states, inter alia, all employees covered by EBA 8, that's us pilots, will be locked out.
Pretty clear to us at the time mate. Crewing told me at my 15/4 to not turn up.

[wombat watcher]

Originally Posted by mustafagander

Wombat,
I call your attention to Qantas FSO Admin 062/11 which states, inter alia, all employees covered by EBA 8, that's us pilots, will be locked out.
Pretty clear to us at the time mate. Crewing told me at my 15/4 to not turn up.

“Will be locked out”. You weren’t. It was called off before the commencement time.
”Crewing told me not to turn up”. You weren’t required because before the planned lockout commenced, CASA grounded the airline for safety reasons. It continued thus for a few days.
Were you docked any pay? Ie you lost part of your MGH because you were locked out for say 1 hr? 1 day? a couple of days?

[almostthere!]

Originally Posted by mustafagander

Wombat,
I call your attention to Qantas FSO Admin 062/11 which states, inter alia, all employees covered by EBA 8, that's us pilots, will be locked out.
Pretty clear to us at the time mate. Crewing told me at my 15/4 to not turn up.

Pilots were never locked out. I wonder how some people can even taxi an aircraft or take one off, let alone land one, if they cant understand the nuances of their contract and the industrial mechanisms of ensuring its integrity.

[Tankengine]

Originally Posted by wombat watcher

“Will be locked out”. You weren’t. It was called off before the commencement time.
”Crewing told me not to turn up”. You weren’t required because before the planned lockout commenced, CASA grounded the airline for safety reasons. It continued thus for a few days.
Were you docked any pay? Ie you lost part of your MGH because you were locked out for say 1 hr? 1 day? a couple of days?

ohh, CASA grounded the airline? I didn’t even know Alan worked for them!
Remember Alan has said under oath he only decided to go ahead with the shutdown on the Saturday morning. (Do “CASA” work Saturdays?)
Docked pay? You obviously don’t know how credited hours work, I got the same pay but had to spend two extra days away from my family for it!

[wombat watcher]

Originally Posted by Tankengine

ohh, CASA grounded the airline? I didn’t even know Alan worked for them!
Remember Alan has said under oath he only decided to go ahead with the shutdown on the Saturday morning. (Do “CASA” work Saturdays?)
Docked pay? You obviously don’t know how credited hours work, I got the same pay but had to spend two extra days away from my family for it!

obviously you didn’t get docked pay.
because the airline was grounded you obviously got stuck in some outport.
because your pattern was based on flight time credits, you obviously didn’t get to the cutover where MDC kicked in.
the fact that you didn’t get any extra pay for your extra 2 days away from home obviously increased your bitterness about the whole lockout exercise
because you were overseas might be the reason you weren’t aware/ didn’t understand the nuances of what actually happened

If the lockout actually took place, you might have been kicked out of your company paid hotel room. That is what happened in 1966, the last time Qf pilots participated in serious industrial action. That would have given you real reason to complain.

There is a big difference between planning for a lockout as a tactic and actually pulling the trigger.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

So did CASA ground the airline, wombat watcher, or not? Might come as a surprise to a lot of people if they did.

[wombat watcher]

Originally Posted by itsnotthatbloodyhard

So did CASA ground the airline, wombat watcher, or not? Might come as a surprise to a lot of people if they did.

yes
AJ decided to invoke the lockout and announce it on the Saturday morning having gotten the AGM out of the wayearlier in the week
he had been planning it as a contingency for a while
He grounded the airline effective after his announcement
the guvmint was expected to refer the matter for compulsory mediation under the IR laws as a matter of public interest relatively quickly.
this was delayed until late on the saturday night
the lockout was due to come into force effective Sunday or Monday (I can’t recall)
the FWC convened late Saturday night and sat until the early hours of Sunday morning and ruled for compulsory mediation and for the lockout to be voided
the prime targets were the TWU and the LAME’s. Pilots got caught up in the action
much to Qf surprise CASA kept the airline grounded until Qf could make a case that safety wasn’t compromised by the emotional and other issues generated by the grounding and the looming lockout
it took until the Tuesday or Wednesday before this could be achieved and normal operations resumed
it was AJ who initially grounded the airline and then CASA who kept it grounded
Yes pilots received letters advising of the lockout, yes pilots were told not to report for work but no Qf pilot was actually locked out.

[4Greens]

What happened to the AFAP? It was very effective in my day, the sixties.

[Captain Dart]

It lost my job for me in the eighties.