QANTAS long haul EBA
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So, let me get this straight. There are a bunch of pilots in Qantas who have started a union called the Qantas Pilots Assosiation. They presumably are 747 and A380 captain unhappy with the 787 award and don’t want to be redeployed to it, (I’m just spitballing here) and the lack of information from AIPA about a RIN that may or may not happen because of A380 wing problems. So they have decided to go to Qantas during an EA negotiation and undercut the 787 award? I’m completely confused.
I doubt they will try to undercut the 787 award. Insead they will make many empty promises about not rolling over and getting the 787 on better conditions. When they can’t achieve this because they both do not have the support and the company will not agree, they will target the AIPA elected leadership for being too soft.
All of this will play out mostly on anonymous online forums with no real names attached.
Thread Starter
If you think anyone can get the 787 on better terms you are smoking some strong sh#t. That ship has sailed or should I say flown. Under the legislation anyone under the award can be involved in the negotiations even you. If the best AIPA could do was the sell out on the 787 then good luck to them.
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The 787 terms were agreed to overwhelmingly by a majority of long haul pilots. If the ‘QPA” thinks it represents the majority of mainline pilots, then why don’t the QPA leadership contest for the AIPA leadership?
I have my personal opinions, and I’ll reiterate what I’ve said before that negotiation is not personal. Pilots must be prepared to fight for the conditions they deserve. It is a game in many ways...with serious consequences. Individual pilots need to lift their industrial game to help AIPA achieve what is deserved. Unfortunately, history suggests as individuals, pilots are industrially dumb, blinded by everyday selfishness that is too hard to hide away. 787 minus 10% only emphasises this reality. Pilots should be ashamed that we have enabled such an offer...and equally outraged that the company feels tenacious enough to approach with such a starting point
Thread Starter
In 1981 the then president of the AFAP said to a meeting of Qantas pilots if you leave us and set up your own union you will just become another arm of management. He was 100% correct, at the time I didn’t agree with him.
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Concentrating negotiating efforts into penalty rates for long TOD’s is exactly what brought the LH contract to the point where something “had to be done” due to TOD creep over the years.
It also created the despised “super seniority” situation that resulted in the squirrel cage on the B787.
Money does not cure fatigue, and ULR ops are not necessarily more fatiguing anyway.
It just doesn’t make sense, and any suggestion of re-introducing it shows a lack of lessons learned.
Put your negotiating efforts into the hourly rate, folks.
It also created the despised “super seniority” situation that resulted in the squirrel cage on the B787.
Money does not cure fatigue, and ULR ops are not necessarily more fatiguing anyway.
It just doesn’t make sense, and any suggestion of re-introducing it shows a lack of lessons learned.
Put your negotiating efforts into the hourly rate, folks.
What utter garbage. AIPA is the reason you work under a LHEA that is better than every other EA for airline pilots in the country and better than many around the world.
You must be have an overwhelming sense of entitlement to believe;
a) I deserve to be paid more than every other airline pilot in the country, and
b) The people who negotiated these conditions for me are only worthy of scorn and derision.
You must be have an overwhelming sense of entitlement to believe;
a) I deserve to be paid more than every other airline pilot in the country, and
b) The people who negotiated these conditions for me are only worthy of scorn and derision.
What utter garbage. AIPA is the reason you work under a LHEA that is better than every other EA for airline pilots in the country and better than many around the world.
You must be have an overwhelming sense of entitlement to believe;
a) I deserve to be paid more than every other airline pilot in the country, and
b) The people who negotiated these conditions for me are only worthy of scorn and derision.
You must be have an overwhelming sense of entitlement to believe;
a) I deserve to be paid more than every other airline pilot in the country, and
b) The people who negotiated these conditions for me are only worthy of scorn and derision.
How many long haul EAs are there in Australia? And saying that the EA is better than many in the world is saying not much...the world is a big place filled with lots of business psychopaths. There are lots of contracts and remuneration deals better than ours.
Qantas always likes to imply (if not outright claim) that they are the best airline in the world. Certainly they pay management that way. Goose:Gander.
Overwhelming sense of entitlement? Hardly. But you only ever get what you negotiate. Those other guys can sing for their own supper. What they get is their business, and should not set the bar, nor the expectation for anyone else.
On your point B, agree that negotiators often reap undue criticism as a reward for their efforts. I don’t personally object to individuals using AIPA office as an audition for a future petty admin role.
Last edited by Australopithecus; 7th Dec 2018 at 01:33. Reason: Clarity
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Dragonman
what do you actually want?
You haven’t said - “I want this!” Just tough rhetoric and rubbish! You actually are carrying on like an pompous w@nker in the eyes of the majority of Qantas pilots.
The way I see it, you get paid a certain award for flying a large aircraft to a few destinations. You voted up the long haul EBA because of the backpay you would get but not caring about the B787 conditions because you would never set foot on that little aircraft with sub par conditions (in your eyes)! But still ticked yes anyway because of the backpay.
So should the company pay you Jumbo salary and conditions on an aircraft that will no longer exist? That is the same size as an A330! Size matters when you justify why you get paid more than a B737 driver. So surely it would be close to appropriate that the B787 conditions are at or better than the A330.
We all want the best pay and conditions for everyone at Qantas (and everywhere else) but it seems you want your cake and to eat it too.
Easy to cry foul on an award that plenty of you MRV pilots signed for the backpay thinking you’d never sully your hooves on it!
ps love the Jumbo pilots meme with the screaming kid. Must have been someone very clever to think up that one ☝️ 😂
what do you actually want?
You haven’t said - “I want this!” Just tough rhetoric and rubbish! You actually are carrying on like an pompous w@nker in the eyes of the majority of Qantas pilots.
The way I see it, you get paid a certain award for flying a large aircraft to a few destinations. You voted up the long haul EBA because of the backpay you would get but not caring about the B787 conditions because you would never set foot on that little aircraft with sub par conditions (in your eyes)! But still ticked yes anyway because of the backpay.
So should the company pay you Jumbo salary and conditions on an aircraft that will no longer exist? That is the same size as an A330! Size matters when you justify why you get paid more than a B737 driver. So surely it would be close to appropriate that the B787 conditions are at or better than the A330.
We all want the best pay and conditions for everyone at Qantas (and everywhere else) but it seems you want your cake and to eat it too.
Easy to cry foul on an award that plenty of you MRV pilots signed for the backpay thinking you’d never sully your hooves on it!
ps love the Jumbo pilots meme with the screaming kid. Must have been someone very clever to think up that one ☝️ 😂
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Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't the current long standing Promotional Arrangements just been scrapped immediately (B737/A330 f/o before CMD) and now Vertical promotion, all fleets is the rule?
Talk about changing the goal posts during EBA negotiations...
Happy landings
Talk about changing the goal posts during EBA negotiations...
Happy landings
Thread Starter
Dragonman
what do you actually want?
You haven’t said - “I want this!” Just tough rhetoric and rubbish! You actually are carrying on like an pompous w@nker in the eyes of the majority of Qantas pilots.
The way I see it, you get paid a certain award for flying a large aircraft to a few destinations. You voted up the long haul EBA because of the backpay you would get but not caring about the B787 conditions because you would never set foot on that little aircraft with sub par conditions (in your eyes)! But still ticked yes anyway because of the backpay.
So should the company pay you Jumbo salary and conditions on an aircraft that will no longer exist? That is the same size as an A330! Size matters when you justify why you get paid more than a B737 driver. So surely it would be close to appropriate that the B787 conditions are at or better than the A330.
We all want the best pay and conditions for everyone at Qantas (and everywhere else) but it seems you want your cake and to eat it too.
Easy to cry foul on an award that plenty of you MRV pilots signed for the backpay thinking you’d never sully your hooves on it!
ps love the Jumbo pilots meme with the screaming kid. Must have been someone very clever to think up that one ☝️ 😂
what do you actually want?
You haven’t said - “I want this!” Just tough rhetoric and rubbish! You actually are carrying on like an pompous w@nker in the eyes of the majority of Qantas pilots.
The way I see it, you get paid a certain award for flying a large aircraft to a few destinations. You voted up the long haul EBA because of the backpay you would get but not caring about the B787 conditions because you would never set foot on that little aircraft with sub par conditions (in your eyes)! But still ticked yes anyway because of the backpay.
So should the company pay you Jumbo salary and conditions on an aircraft that will no longer exist? That is the same size as an A330! Size matters when you justify why you get paid more than a B737 driver. So surely it would be close to appropriate that the B787 conditions are at or better than the A330.
We all want the best pay and conditions for everyone at Qantas (and everywhere else) but it seems you want your cake and to eat it too.
Easy to cry foul on an award that plenty of you MRV pilots signed for the backpay thinking you’d never sully your hooves on it!
ps love the Jumbo pilots meme with the screaming kid. Must have been someone very clever to think up that one ☝️ 😂
Il except your apology you pompous prick, I actually voted no to the EBA.
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Defried: Super Seniority – Does not exist once you have limits and buckets placed on Long-Haul bidding!
However, don’t let facts get in the way of a good furphy! Noting that the bid to move to the Rotating Rat Cage was rejected on every other Fleet by Long Haul Pilots (that is a fact!) might give others reading these posts some (real) insight!
Composite Lines (trialled by Qantas) always appeared to be the fair solution to me. Everyone shared a little of the (Reserve) pain and Seniority was still served.
Drshmoo: Approximately 80% bid for the last E.A thus approximately 20% did not. I personally would be careful (respectful?) of making (unfounded) accusations of who Bid for what reason. Most of the people I talk to bid under the fear that was promulgated by Qantas Corporate Management that we may not get the B-787 Fleet! You might owe the dragon man an apology?
More importantly...there is a New E.A. on the industrial Horizon and Yes, this is the E.A. that will prove our metal and our unity as Qantas L-H pilots!
Merry Xmas!
However, don’t let facts get in the way of a good furphy! Noting that the bid to move to the Rotating Rat Cage was rejected on every other Fleet by Long Haul Pilots (that is a fact!) might give others reading these posts some (real) insight!
Composite Lines (trialled by Qantas) always appeared to be the fair solution to me. Everyone shared a little of the (Reserve) pain and Seniority was still served.
Drshmoo: Approximately 80% bid for the last E.A thus approximately 20% did not. I personally would be careful (respectful?) of making (unfounded) accusations of who Bid for what reason. Most of the people I talk to bid under the fear that was promulgated by Qantas Corporate Management that we may not get the B-787 Fleet! You might owe the dragon man an apology?
More importantly...there is a New E.A. on the industrial Horizon and Yes, this is the E.A. that will prove our metal and our unity as Qantas L-H pilots!
Merry Xmas!
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That’s not quite true Capt. I think it was 1 rank on 1 aircraft that had less than 50%. It was the 60% threshold that stopped it. Bit untrue to say they didn’t want it when most aircraft and ranks were above 50%. It may have been rejected but not by a majority.
, don’t let facts get in the way of a good furphy! Noting that the bid to move to the Rotating Rat Cage was rejected on every other Fleet by Long Haul Pilots (that is a fact!) might give others reading these posts some (real) insight
5 out of 9 categories didn’t make it over 50%... I just looked at the result email. Only 330 Capt and FO, 380 FO and SO voted more than 50%.
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Maybe the statement "not quite true" is a diplomatic approach I might think!
As reported on Qrewroom
Percentage Yes vote (for PSN)
1. A380 Captain = 36.6%
2. B747 Captain = 31.3%
3. A330 Captain = 51.7%
4. A380 F/O = 58.1%
5. B747 F/O = 42.6%
6. A330 F/O = 55.6%
7. A380 S/O = 57%
8. B747 S/O = 42.7%
9. A330 S/O = 50%
The movement to PSN was set at 60% (Defined Majority on each Type) by AIPA committees (i.e the Pilots!). Therein, the Question was then raised, given the full collective aircraft type No Vote of Pilots on the Long-Haul fleet - that the vast majority were not interested in the PSN.
In that case, the question was raised by Pilots why was PSN made mandatory on the 787?
It would be interesting to see what the Vote would be on the B-787 now if the NABS was offered against PSN.
Safe Flying.
One can only deal within the rules and statistics!