QANTAS long haul EBA
I feel dragon man may be reflecting on areas of the long-haul T & C’s. Which took a hit with the introduction of the B-787.
Currently, there are some problems with scheduling and several comparative items on the B-787 fleet so it is timely to have the EA once again approaching. Certainly, we will see how much metal the collective long-haul group have if they wish to change some unpalatable areas in the current EA.
During the last EA, one of the B-747 AIPA Committee members astutely drove the Year 4 pay-deal clause for those that (will) be redeployed to the B-787 from the B-747. Notably, those pilots that may be redeployed are considering that Fleet (B-787) even though eligible to jump to the A380 as they don’t want to commit to the A380, to have to, once again, retrain in a few years time. Rumours of A380 Wing Cracks and alleged extended Interior Refurbishment times abound apparently over in the maintenance areas.
What I feel and see is that Pilots over on the B-747 Fleet are waiting for some positive leadership out of AIPA (information) re the Reduction In Numbers from the B-747 onto ‘other fleets’. Certainly, after the SIT Manager produced a basic handout of the B-747 fleet retirement dates (timescale) for the B-747 certainly a forward redeployment scale could be drawn out for those Pilots (even if it is the 'best guess' at this time!). Yet nothing from AIPA. Once again Qantas Management is running the full show, with NO guidance from the Association currently! IMO that makes people very frustrated and leaves them pondering why AIPA is not more pro-active to its affected members.
Currently, there are some problems with scheduling and several comparative items on the B-787 fleet so it is timely to have the EA once again approaching. Certainly, we will see how much metal the collective long-haul group have if they wish to change some unpalatable areas in the current EA.
During the last EA, one of the B-747 AIPA Committee members astutely drove the Year 4 pay-deal clause for those that (will) be redeployed to the B-787 from the B-747. Notably, those pilots that may be redeployed are considering that Fleet (B-787) even though eligible to jump to the A380 as they don’t want to commit to the A380, to have to, once again, retrain in a few years time. Rumours of A380 Wing Cracks and alleged extended Interior Refurbishment times abound apparently over in the maintenance areas.
What I feel and see is that Pilots over on the B-747 Fleet are waiting for some positive leadership out of AIPA (information) re the Reduction In Numbers from the B-747 onto ‘other fleets’. Certainly, after the SIT Manager produced a basic handout of the B-747 fleet retirement dates (timescale) for the B-747 certainly a forward redeployment scale could be drawn out for those Pilots (even if it is the 'best guess' at this time!). Yet nothing from AIPA. Once again Qantas Management is running the full show, with NO guidance from the Association currently! IMO that makes people very frustrated and leaves them pondering why AIPA is not more pro-active to its affected members.
Not sure how you have come to believe 'one of the B-747 AIPA Committee members astutely drove the Year 4 pay-deal clause'. The way you have worded that statement, it makes it look like without that input, there would be no such protection. If this is your proposition, it is incorrect.
Firstly I appreciate this debate been civil. My answer to that is I think many pilots are attracted to the “ glamour” of long haul aviation destinations, they are also sick of going to work so often and not having heavy crews. The reality will sink in, it’s not glamorous. Back to back JFK patterns out of Bne very very hard work and many other sectors will soon lose their appeal. The health effects of flying these long term will not be known for years however IMO from my own experience and my contemporaries around me they will not be good.
Last edited by theheadmaster; 11th Nov 2018 at 11:46.
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I can understand the uncertainty that an upcoming RIN will be stressful and those likely to be affected will want information. I think you need to wait to see what unfolds here before criticising AIPA.
Not sure how you have come to believe 'one of the B-747 AIPA Committee members astutely drove the Year 4 pay-deal clause'. The way you have worded that statement, it makes it look like without that input, there would be no such protection. If this is your proposition, it is incorrect.
Not sure how you have come to believe 'one of the B-747 AIPA Committee members astutely drove the Year 4 pay-deal clause'. The way you have worded that statement, it makes it look like without that input, there would be no such protection. If this is your proposition, it is incorrect.
As I pointed out previously, there exists enough base-line data for either the AIPA or the Company to generate a spreadsheet of a timed exodus. However, the company who want Pilots to Bid off the B-747 have no interest in producing such data for obvious fiscal and administrative reasons. The question is why AIPA has NOT shown such leadership and promulgated data to its financial members. Certainly, many members of AIPA, who will be affected by a RIN and who I have spoken with recently, ponder and deliberate what they are paying their dues for at AIPA given the lack of attention to the RIN matter at this time!
Correct: Without that policy being driven at the last EA there would be No Such Protection in place!! Thus, you are incorrect!
I am glad that “you can understand the uncertainty” headmaster, as a lot of the B-747 Pilots are living with the uncertainty and the apprehension due lack of information. Alas, your reply appears aloof and condescending given the effect a RIN will have on all fleets and a significant number of Pilots.
As I pointed out previously, there exists enough base-line data for either the AIPA or the Company to generate a spreadsheet of a timed exodus. However, the company who want Pilots to Bid off the B-747 have no interest in producing such data for obvious fiscal and administrative reasons. The question is why AIPA has NOT shown such leadership and promulgated data to its financial members. Certainly, many members of AIPA, who will be affected by a RIN and who I have spoken with recently, ponder and deliberate what they are paying their dues for at AIPA given the lack of attention to the RIN matter at this time!
Correct: Without that policy being driven at the last EA there would be No Such Protection in place!! Thus, you are incorrect!
As I pointed out previously, there exists enough base-line data for either the AIPA or the Company to generate a spreadsheet of a timed exodus. However, the company who want Pilots to Bid off the B-747 have no interest in producing such data for obvious fiscal and administrative reasons. The question is why AIPA has NOT shown such leadership and promulgated data to its financial members. Certainly, many members of AIPA, who will be affected by a RIN and who I have spoken with recently, ponder and deliberate what they are paying their dues for at AIPA given the lack of attention to the RIN matter at this time!
Correct: Without that policy being driven at the last EA there would be No Such Protection in place!! Thus, you are incorrect!
Regarding the protections mentioned, this was negotiated by the negotiating team based on the experience of the previous 747 and 767 RINs. It was not 'driven' by anyone on the committee and certainly not 'driven' by PM.
Capt Colonial, AIPA is dealing with the information given by the company and the company has no idea when the 744s are leaving. So what would you have AIPA do? Formulate a dozen contingency plans and brief the membership on each one, knowing that only one (or none) may come to pass?
The RIN is going to suck, no two ways about it, but heaping scorn on AIPA isn’t helping anyone.
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If it is so easy and there is enough base line data, why not produce this data yourself?
Regarding the protections mentioned, this was negotiated by the negotiating team based on the experience of the previous 747 and 767 RINs. It was not 'driven' by anyone on the committee and certainly not 'driven' by PM.
Regarding the protections mentioned, this was negotiated by the negotiating team based on the experience of the previous 747 and 767 RINs. It was not 'driven' by anyone on the committee and certainly not 'driven' by PM.
Not what I was told!! PM drove the policy hard and it was a concession acquiesced to appease the senior pilots in an endeavour to push the EA for the B-787 towards the whole membership. I was informed that JB, AS and NS were not supportive, however, the CoM of the day came to support that policy (thank goodness!). It seems to me that that AIPA history is rapidly re-written by some who seek to protect their position, control the discussion and further themselves with the Membership and Management.
Why would I or anyone else want to do AIPA’s job? Or if you like why then have AIPA? AIPA have thousands of dollars in members monies a significant Staff Base and Resources. Yet nothing is being produced for the Pilots on the B-747. That’s really pitiful management given the stress on Pilots and Families that a RIN induces. No need to criticise AIPA as that Poor-Performance just speaks for itself!
Not what I was told!! PM drove the policy hard and it was a concession acquiesced to appease the senior pilots in an endeavour to push the EA for the B-787 towards the whole membership. I was informed that JB, AS and NS were not supportive, however, the CoM of the day came to support that policy (thank goodness!). It seems to me that that AIPA history is rapidly re-written by some who seek to protect their position, control the discussion and further themselves with the Membership and Management.
Not what I was told!! PM drove the policy hard and it was a concession acquiesced to appease the senior pilots in an endeavour to push the EA for the B-787 towards the whole membership. I was informed that JB, AS and NS were not supportive, however, the CoM of the day came to support that policy (thank goodness!). It seems to me that that AIPA history is rapidly re-written by some who seek to protect their position, control the discussion and further themselves with the Membership and Management.
They won't commit to anything and beware of any casual assurances from those in place to placate (not help) you.
Good luck.
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Precisely.
Capt Colonial, AIPA is dealing with the information given by the company and the company has no idea when the 744s are leaving. So what would you have AIPA do? Formulate a dozen contingency plans and brief the membership on each one, knowing that only one (or none) may come to pass?
The RIN is going to suck, no two ways about it, but heaping scorn on AIPA isn’t helping anyone.
A number of us watching these events openly believe that the AIPA doesn’t want to get involved because No one wins in a RIN. That understood, paid members should be given all the information (even if it is transitory) and forecasts in order to plan their lives and more importantly those of their families. Why wouldn't the AIPA be proactive rather than reactive? There is certainly something amiss (politically or from a leadership stance) here at the AIPA!
Academic and opinionated arguments on this thread aside there is a succinct human face to this matter and it should be dealt with by all parties far better than it is now!
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I'm genuinely sorry that you're facing the prospect of a RIN soon. Imo the lack of info is a combination of the company not caring about you, a lack of actual plan and a desire to keep some of the plan secret to avoid you making your own plan and to drive you to a position that suits them, not you.
They won't commit to anything and beware of any casual assurances from those in place to placate (not help) you.
Good luck.
They won't commit to anything and beware of any casual assurances from those in place to placate (not help) you.
Good luck.
With all due respect, you are not going to lose your jobs. You may have to do a type course and for some you may lose a bit of money, but it’s hardly the bleeding heart situation you are portraying. Get a grip.
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Precisely.
Capt Colonial, AIPA is dealing with the information given by the company and the company has no idea when the 744s are leaving. So what would you have AIPA do? Formulate a dozen contingency plans and brief the membership on each one, knowing that only one (or none) may come to pass?
The RIN is going to suck, no two ways about it, but heaping scorn on AIPA isn’t helping anyone.
The company is unsure when each aircraft is leaving and pilot wise would love people to just bid progressively onto the 787s which will replace the 747. With year four pay only if RINned this won’t happen to any great degree.
The problems with multiple RIN displacements will mean one RIN at the end (in my opinion) leaving a bunch of crew to be trained all at the same time - this will create a training backlog worse than any seen to date, not to mention displacements and ongoing residual training.
The company doesn’t know, therefore AIPA cannot know!
The latest from the company basically says: “we don’t know, we don’t know when we will know, it will be done accordingly to the contract”
I suggest as a start that anyone concerned READ THE CONTRACT.
The latest list of retirements of 747 airframes is quite different to the earlier one only a few months ago!
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It can be very disruptive.
We all have various financial commitments a 'bit of money' at the wrong time can force larges changes.
Why would I or anyone else want to do AIPA’s job? Or if you like why then have AIPA? AIPA have thousands of dollars in members monies a significant Staff Base and Resources. Yet nothing is being produced for the Pilots on the B-747. That’s really pitiful management given the stress on Pilots and Families that a RIN induces. No need to criticise AIPA as that Poor-Performance just speaks for itself!
Not what I was told!! PM drove the policy hard and it was a concession acquiesced to appease the senior pilots in an endeavour to push the EA for the B-787 towards the whole membership. I was informed that JB, AS and NS were not supportive, however, the CoM of the day came to support that policy (thank goodness!). It seems to me that that AIPA history is rapidly re-written by some who seek to protect their position, control the discussion and further themselves with the Membership and Management.
Not what I was told!! PM drove the policy hard and it was a concession acquiesced to appease the senior pilots in an endeavour to push the EA for the B-787 towards the whole membership. I was informed that JB, AS and NS were not supportive, however, the CoM of the day came to support that policy (thank goodness!). It seems to me that that AIPA history is rapidly re-written by some who seek to protect their position, control the discussion and further themselves with the Membership and Management.
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I don't know who told you this, it certainly was not anyone on the negotiating team. Regardless, it is simply not true. There was no 'concession acquiesced to appease the senior pilots'. Saying that those on the negotiating team were not supportive is pure fantasy. They pursued the issue. Thinking PM drove anything is just wishful thinking. He was so confused by the process that he supported the EBA in the committee room, yet then argued against it during the vote.
Several CoM members who served in that era actually!
I understand that PM supported the EA to Go To a Vote of the members (that’s called democracy by the way!). Not as you attempt to rearrange the facts! You really want to get your history straight!
Yes, he was a NO voter for sure and ran an unsuccessful awareness campaign to alert his colleagues of the EA limitations regarding the B-787.
Alas, all water under a tall bridge now of course!
Given 80% of Pilots voted for the EA. Yet no one will admit to it, probably vindicates his efforts today I might think!
As others have pointed out, this Targeted Reirement Dates document seems remarkably fluid. I find it disconcerting that pilots who tell us that we can’t believe anything that the company says, are now clinging to this document as gospel and using it as a club to attack AIPA.
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History: A few months before the (rapid) closer announcements of the Brisbane B-747 posting apparently the BNE Manager reassured all the B-747 Pilots of the future of the B-747 operation (not his fault he was working on the information management feed to him) was assured and our colleagues worked with that information.
A lot of younger Pilots apparently purchased land to build on in SEQLD. Some purchased established homes. Wifes took contract Employment. Children were placed in Private Schools older Adolescent Children enrolled in Tertiary Education Institutions and Universities. Mortgages and Loans were arranged for Building homes and Education etc, etc!
Then the B-747 retirement announcement happened! Soon to be followed by a RIN within the next eighteen to twenty-four months.
It's not the pilots Fatguyinalittlecoat – it’s the families! We, Pilots, are used to dynamic change, however, Wifes, Partners and Children are not! This is where the devastation, disruption, anxiety, trauma occurs.
These pilots now have moved to a new Base. In many cases away from family or via an extensive commute. Some will move one or two more times with redeployment, retraining and the RIN. Wives are quitting employment (and the income to help pay the new mortgages) due to moving interstate and intrastate. Children will need to leave their schools and maybe in some instances their university? You can see the scenario unfold time and time again and for family units, it can be devasting fiscally, psychologically and emotionally.
And this is only the start. This is only one of the many scenarios. The Rin is yet to happen!
Thus all these pilots want (and their families) is some degree of certainty. They are looking to the Company and being fed total BS (for Administrative and Fiscal reasons)! They are looking to their Association and hear nothing but Silence from the AIPA!
I think you are either not a QF Pilot Fatguy or you have a total failure of understanding of the Human Cost of such scenarios in the real world. The Pilots must deal with these matters and issues usually whilst undertaking (or about to undertake) a Training course, a Base move, a Loss of income, finding New Accommodation and Homes for their Families and New Schools and dealing with disheartened and dismayed, wives children and adolescents.
IMO not quite as simple as you paint in your post perhaps?
Originally Posted by Maggot
That's what I used to think.
It can be very disruptive.
We all have various financial commitments a 'bit of money' at the wrong time can force larges changes.
It can be very disruptive.
We all have various financial commitments a 'bit of money' at the wrong time can force larges changes.
Captain. I have moved bases away from family etc.... but I wasn’t silly enough to believe that the 744 Brisbane posting would last forever. That is the nature of a posting. There are 3 other aircraft types based in Brisbane. Bid for one. Yeah, it’ll be less money (depending on what you chose), but the fact that people bought property, wives took jobs etc..... Doesnt make your situation any more dire than anyone else’s. Everybody knew BNE 744 would eventually end. Good grief.
What certainty do they want? I’ve not had certainty for over 20 years, where do we find this? Oh, I see, AIPA has it and are just unwilling to dispence it? Is that right?
What certainty do they want? I’ve not had certainty for over 20 years, where do we find this? Oh, I see, AIPA has it and are just unwilling to dispence it? Is that right?
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Why would I or anyone else want to do AIPA’s job? Or if you like why then have AIPA? AIPA have thousands of dollars in members monies a significant Staff Base and Resources. Yet nothing is being produced for the Pilots on the B-747. That’s really pitiful management given the stress on Pilots and Families that a RIN induces. No need to criticise AIPA as that Poor-Performance just speaks for itself!
Not what I was told!! PM drove the policy hard and it was a concession acquiesced to appease the senior pilots in an endeavour to push the EA for the B-787 towards the whole membership. I was informed that JB, AS and NS were not supportive, however, the CoM of the day came to support that policy (thank goodness!). It seems to me that that AIPA history is rapidly re-written by some who seek to protect their position, control the discussion and further themselves with the Membership and Management.
Not what I was told!! PM drove the policy hard and it was a concession acquiesced to appease the senior pilots in an endeavour to push the EA for the B-787 towards the whole membership. I was informed that JB, AS and NS were not supportive, however, the CoM of the day came to support that policy (thank goodness!). It seems to me that that AIPA history is rapidly re-written by some who seek to protect their position, control the discussion and further themselves with the Membership and Management.
Oh, Headmaster you just break-me up!!
Several CoM members who served in that era actually!
I understand that PM supported the EA to Go To a Vote of the members (that’s called democracy by the way!). Not as you attempt to rearrange the facts! You really want to get your history straight!
Yes, he was a NO voter for sure and ran an unsuccessful awareness campaign to alert his colleagues of the EA limitations regarding the B-787.
Alas, all water under a tall bridge now of course!
Given 80% of Pilots voted for the EA. Yet no one will admit to it, probably vindicates his efforts today I might think!
Several CoM members who served in that era actually!
I understand that PM supported the EA to Go To a Vote of the members (that’s called democracy by the way!). Not as you attempt to rearrange the facts! You really want to get your history straight!
Yes, he was a NO voter for sure and ran an unsuccessful awareness campaign to alert his colleagues of the EA limitations regarding the B-787.
Alas, all water under a tall bridge now of course!
Given 80% of Pilots voted for the EA. Yet no one will admit to it, probably vindicates his efforts today I might think!