QANTAS long haul EBA
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It has been standard IR play that negotiations were conducted in secret, whereby legal sanction was forthcoming for the individual involved in an alleged 'leak'.
It might seem a little counter intuitive that a process where 'bargaining' and 'negotiating' by legally accepted 'representatives' is conducted in secret.
Ought not the information be available to all members? The European courts applied very strict parameters for what the employer considered 'in confidence'.
Are the current 'negotiations' subject to any sort of non disclose?
It might seem a little counter intuitive that a process where 'bargaining' and 'negotiating' by legally accepted 'representatives' is conducted in secret.
Ought not the information be available to all members? The European courts applied very strict parameters for what the employer considered 'in confidence'.
Are the current 'negotiations' subject to any sort of non disclose?
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Well, it is my understanding that the Pilots set the clear majority target (60%) for the PSN Vote.
Apparently, this number was set to stop future debate (on either outcome) and ongoing revotes, which I for one can grasp! I accepted the logic and democratic outcome. Some today do not!
QPA and/or AIPA. IMO, I think it is healthy to have Qantas engaged in Industrial Bargaining with a cross-section of its Long Haul Pilots.
Of course, we all understand, at the end of the day, it’s the Pilots who Vote Up or Do Not Vote Up an E.A.
Apparently, this number was set to stop future debate (on either outcome) and ongoing revotes, which I for one can grasp! I accepted the logic and democratic outcome. Some today do not!
QPA and/or AIPA. IMO, I think it is healthy to have Qantas engaged in Industrial Bargaining with a cross-section of its Long Haul Pilots.
Of course, we all understand, at the end of the day, it’s the Pilots who Vote Up or Do Not Vote Up an E.A.
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Capt. I’m not arguing against the merits of the 60% threshold, I’m just suggesting that a “vast majority” did not vote against it as you suggest. More than half of the polled pilots in various ranks on various aircraft types voted to Squirrel cage (and it was absolutely line ball on another) Just because it didn’t get pat 60% does not indicate that a “vast majority” wanted the status quo.
I feel you may be a little 744 (or A380) centric in your arguments. That’s fine, but you need to understand that Longhaul is bigger than that, and consider that, if your arguments are to get any traction.
I feel you may be a little 744 (or A380) centric in your arguments. That’s fine, but you need to understand that Longhaul is bigger than that, and consider that, if your arguments are to get any traction.
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Capt. I’m not arguing against the merits of the 60% threshold, I’m just suggesting that a “vast majority” did not vote against it as you suggest. More than half of the polled pilots in various ranks on various aircraft types voted to Squirrel cage (and it was absolutely line ball on another) Just because it didn’t get pat 60% does not indicate that a “vast majority” wanted the status quo.
I feel you may be a little 744 (or A380) centric in your arguments. That’s fine, but you need to understand that Longhaul is bigger than that, and consider that, if your arguments are to get any traction.
I feel you may be a little 744 (or A380) centric in your arguments. That’s fine, but you need to understand that Longhaul is bigger than that, and consider that, if your arguments are to get any traction.
I am dealing with the facts as they happened! If you want to believe otherwise that’s your right of course!
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This is your quote Capt Colonial
Alright captain. I’m not arguing either, just pointing out that I believe you’re intentionally not being entirely truthful. With regard to PSN vote, there was a majority in various places, so it wasn’t rejected, it just didn’t make the 60%. You are making it sound like is was rejected entirely, and I believe that you are doing that on purpose.
You’re telling half truths that you then dress up as facts which support your assertions (Isn’t that what you despise so much about our CEO?), and then use those half truths as evidence that people following this thread should now have “real insight”. That is all. The vote on the PSN specifically is irrelevant, you are using it as an example, so so am I. As you say I can disagree and I do (others can use the numbers you provided to make up there own minds), but that is what freedom affords me.
Good grief.
However, don’t let facts get in the way of a good furphy! Noting that the bid to move to the Rotating Rat Cage was rejected on every other Fleet by Long Haul Pilots (that is a fact!) might give others reading these posts some (real) insight!
You’re telling half truths that you then dress up as facts which support your assertions (Isn’t that what you despise so much about our CEO?), and then use those half truths as evidence that people following this thread should now have “real insight”. That is all. The vote on the PSN specifically is irrelevant, you are using it as an example, so so am I. As you say I can disagree and I do (others can use the numbers you provided to make up there own minds), but that is what freedom affords me.
Good grief.
Last edited by SandyPalms; 10th Dec 2018 at 13:57.
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As reported on Qrewroom: Percentage Yes vote (for PSN)
1. A380 Captain = 36.6%
2. B747 Captain = 31.3%
3. A330 Captain = 51.7%
4. A380 F/O = 58.1%
5. B747 F/O = 42.6%
6. A330 F/O = 55.6%
7. A380 S/O = 57%
8. B747 S/O = 42.7%
9. A330 S/O = 50%
The movement to PSN was set at 60% by the AIPA.
This was to provide a defined Majority on each Type.
That Statistical number 60% Majority on Type and the Logic to that number was set by the AIPA committees (i.e. the Long-Haul Pilots themselves!).
This (or so I was told) was to stop whingers and statistical cherry pickers asserting that there was a majority if the overall clear 60% on Type was not achieved.
I and the vast majority of all Long-Haul Pilots accepted these Rules of the PSN Vote and the Logic of the 60% standard.
Therein, the Question was then raised to the Pilots and a No Vote of Pilots was carried in that the 60% majority on any Type was Not Achieved!
That means most Pilots on Type were not interested in the PSN.
Anything else is Fake News and Phoney presentation of actual events at the time - given the Rules and Standards of that PSN Vote.
I’ll stick with what the Rules were and the Historical facts! In this matter.
Safe Flying.
1. A380 Captain = 36.6%
2. B747 Captain = 31.3%
3. A330 Captain = 51.7%
4. A380 F/O = 58.1%
5. B747 F/O = 42.6%
6. A330 F/O = 55.6%
7. A380 S/O = 57%
8. B747 S/O = 42.7%
9. A330 S/O = 50%
The movement to PSN was set at 60% by the AIPA.
This was to provide a defined Majority on each Type.
That Statistical number 60% Majority on Type and the Logic to that number was set by the AIPA committees (i.e. the Long-Haul Pilots themselves!).
This (or so I was told) was to stop whingers and statistical cherry pickers asserting that there was a majority if the overall clear 60% on Type was not achieved.
I and the vast majority of all Long-Haul Pilots accepted these Rules of the PSN Vote and the Logic of the 60% standard.
Therein, the Question was then raised to the Pilots and a No Vote of Pilots was carried in that the 60% majority on any Type was Not Achieved!
That means most Pilots on Type were not interested in the PSN.
Anything else is Fake News and Phoney presentation of actual events at the time - given the Rules and Standards of that PSN Vote.
I’ll stick with what the Rules were and the Historical facts! In this matter.
Safe Flying.
Reading this thread and the child like behaviour within does not bode well for a good deal on the new EBA.
The Company will win with EBA10 - not because of their masterful negotiating and business skills, but simply because you idiots would rather argue and swing your d***s over who is right on an internet forum than band together, get in contact with AIPA, and get the best deal for the LH group as a whole.
The Company will win with EBA10 - not because of their masterful negotiating and business skills, but simply because you idiots would rather argue and swing your d***s over who is right on an internet forum than band together, get in contact with AIPA, and get the best deal for the LH group as a whole.
Thread Starter
Reading this thread and the child like behaviour within does not bode well for a good deal on the new EBA.
The Company will win with EBA10 - not because of their masterful negotiating and business skills, but simply because you idiots would rather argue and swing your d***s over who is right on an internet forum than band together, get in contact with AIPA, and get the best deal for the LH group as a whole.
The Company will win with EBA10 - not because of their masterful negotiating and business skills, but simply because you idiots would rather argue and swing your d***s over who is right on an internet forum than band together, get in contact with AIPA, and get the best deal for the LH group as a whole.
So after all the Panic the company document only has 9 747 Captains to be subject to a RIN. All are too junior to displace A380. The one redeployment position created from an early retirement will go to someone senior and un name one Captain.
As I see it they can either go Year 4 787 in MEL/BNE or displace onto A330 and be super senior. The rostering and rotating seniority system on the 787 is seeing Captains get a Blankline at least every 4-6 months as training pilots don’t fly blank lines. Not ideal. SH system good in theory but SH don’t do Blanklines.
With large retirements due and lots of training slots coming up Qantas DO NOT expect a further RIN for FOs or SOs.
Talk is also of keeping the final 4 747 ERs to do SCL,JNB,HND past the December 2020 plan as fuel is dropping in price.
Might have been Keg that mentioned Thankfully its not 2012 with record losses and demotions. Alan’s stopped begging the Government too. That be hard with close to $100 million in pay since then.
It’s 2018 and we have a pilot shortage, large retirements due, promotions not demotions, billion dollar profits, multi
million bonuses and Qantas has turned around.
Great times ahead
As I see it they can either go Year 4 787 in MEL/BNE or displace onto A330 and be super senior. The rostering and rotating seniority system on the 787 is seeing Captains get a Blankline at least every 4-6 months as training pilots don’t fly blank lines. Not ideal. SH system good in theory but SH don’t do Blanklines.
With large retirements due and lots of training slots coming up Qantas DO NOT expect a further RIN for FOs or SOs.
Talk is also of keeping the final 4 747 ERs to do SCL,JNB,HND past the December 2020 plan as fuel is dropping in price.
Might have been Keg that mentioned Thankfully its not 2012 with record losses and demotions. Alan’s stopped begging the Government too. That be hard with close to $100 million in pay since then.
It’s 2018 and we have a pilot shortage, large retirements due, promotions not demotions, billion dollar profits, multi
million bonuses and Qantas has turned around.
Great times ahead
I suspect both AIPA and the company realise this EBA is being negotiated under different circumstances, yet the company will bring a consistent message to the negotiating table...that of cost control.
Having agreed to a wage freeze...that is permanent cost control. I don’t disagree with wage freezes when times are tough...I do disagree with EBA staff being tied to this mentality that the best you can hope for is 3%. It is rubbish.
I voted yes last time. I suspect if the company and AIPA follow the same path as last time, I’ll be voting no this time. Many others will too. The real question is what are YOU doing to help AIPA or QPU (whatever it is). The sentiment that people moan on a forum but are timid industrial mice is quite true. The Association is the President, we are the military and our p shooter with spitballs don’t carry much sway. It doesn’t matter your opinion of AIPA or their competency, we need to change.
The little puff piece on 60minutes should remind pilots that you don’t win the media war. Industrial action is far less effective than individual work to rule. No willing to work...no duty extension...everything in the techlog..sign on 60min before..it’s up to YOU and it’s really simple stuff.
There might never be again a better time to negotiate from a pilots perspective...so it’s up to YOU and ME...and maybe things might be different. Either way, I’m ready. RINs are happening, recruitment is full steam ahead. Let’s give ourselves a shot by supporting AIPA with actions that reflect our hardened attitude. Or we can do nothing, blame AIPA, and eat the **** sandwich we helped create...and then still blame AIPA and fire the p shooter spitballs at them.
Having agreed to a wage freeze...that is permanent cost control. I don’t disagree with wage freezes when times are tough...I do disagree with EBA staff being tied to this mentality that the best you can hope for is 3%. It is rubbish.
I voted yes last time. I suspect if the company and AIPA follow the same path as last time, I’ll be voting no this time. Many others will too. The real question is what are YOU doing to help AIPA or QPU (whatever it is). The sentiment that people moan on a forum but are timid industrial mice is quite true. The Association is the President, we are the military and our p shooter with spitballs don’t carry much sway. It doesn’t matter your opinion of AIPA or their competency, we need to change.
The little puff piece on 60minutes should remind pilots that you don’t win the media war. Industrial action is far less effective than individual work to rule. No willing to work...no duty extension...everything in the techlog..sign on 60min before..it’s up to YOU and it’s really simple stuff.
There might never be again a better time to negotiate from a pilots perspective...so it’s up to YOU and ME...and maybe things might be different. Either way, I’m ready. RINs are happening, recruitment is full steam ahead. Let’s give ourselves a shot by supporting AIPA with actions that reflect our hardened attitude. Or we can do nothing, blame AIPA, and eat the **** sandwich we helped create...and then still blame AIPA and fire the p shooter spitballs at them.
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Good Points Crosscutter.
AIPA negotiated the Last EA in very different circumstances. Point made earlier that Qantas lost billions. Captains got demoted.Nearly all those 767 Captains are now back on the A330 as CPTs or in training. Many FOs on or going to A330 or 787 or 737 CPT.
Talk is of 737 SYD CPTs next round going as junior as 1500. Times have improved and so has AIPAs position.
Around the time of the Last EA Alan was on TV telling Tony Abbott the airline was ruined and would die unless bailed out.
Alan now has his own 60 minutes segment championing himself, Qantas and it’s multi billion dollar success. 100 million even buys you a new set of white teeth and fancy black specs.
Company LH negotiators are now fuelling embarrassing scare campaigns on line for the A380 replacement. Most find it laughable.
Ex mangers and Pilots from defunct Low cost airlines that flew a maximum of 6 hours in a 767 from Cairns are not relevant to Qantas LH ops. Cairns is indeed lovely in winter but the market for 20 hour premium flights is dubious.
Qantas charge a premium to fly to global finance hubs of London and New York. Not bogans to Borneo from Cairns.
Confident AIPA reps know what their doing.
AIPA negotiated the Last EA in very different circumstances. Point made earlier that Qantas lost billions. Captains got demoted.Nearly all those 767 Captains are now back on the A330 as CPTs or in training. Many FOs on or going to A330 or 787 or 737 CPT.
Talk is of 737 SYD CPTs next round going as junior as 1500. Times have improved and so has AIPAs position.
Around the time of the Last EA Alan was on TV telling Tony Abbott the airline was ruined and would die unless bailed out.
Alan now has his own 60 minutes segment championing himself, Qantas and it’s multi billion dollar success. 100 million even buys you a new set of white teeth and fancy black specs.
Company LH negotiators are now fuelling embarrassing scare campaigns on line for the A380 replacement. Most find it laughable.
Ex mangers and Pilots from defunct Low cost airlines that flew a maximum of 6 hours in a 767 from Cairns are not relevant to Qantas LH ops. Cairns is indeed lovely in winter but the market for 20 hour premium flights is dubious.
Qantas charge a premium to fly to global finance hubs of London and New York. Not bogans to Borneo from Cairns.
Confident AIPA reps know what their doing.
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That was then. This is now
Very True Angry Rat.
Remember after the GFC Many people bought houses in the USA for $50k when the market was terrible.
Fast forward to today and the same houses are $200k plus.
For sure you can try and low ball and buy one at $50k. You’d kindly find yourself told by any agent to get F#$&@ as it’s a different market now and you need to pay more.
That was then. This is now.
Remember after the GFC Many people bought houses in the USA for $50k when the market was terrible.
Fast forward to today and the same houses are $200k plus.
For sure you can try and low ball and buy one at $50k. You’d kindly find yourself told by any agent to get F#$&@ as it’s a different market now and you need to pay more.
That was then. This is now.
Thread Starter
Like every one here I would love 3% plus pay rise however the reality is that all staff in Qantas get the same pay increases, it will be a maximum of 3% IMO.
- 12% super now so those not on defined benefit can see improvement on 787 and future type.
- 3% per year
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Assuming 3% is locked in stone, (I am sure the company will fight hard on this), how about double time over 170hrs (155hrs 787)? ���� That would focus their minds on correct establishments. ��
There are many ways to skin a cat (apparently ��)
There are many ways to skin a cat (apparently ��)
Thread Starter
We already have a form of double time for over divisor plus 5. I’m a realist IMO they certainly will fight you hard if you want more than what everyone else is getting in fact il be so bold as to say if you took protected industrial action they would lock you out.
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“ Unfortunately Qantas Tech Crew are led by a Dick with no balls and for some of us , a ball with no dick , what hope have we got !
Hence the loading 4 to 5,000 + “Galvin’s” every sector ! “
