Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

457ís are back!

Old 9th Aug 2018, 02:59
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Icarus2001 View Post
This thread is full of comments about overseas pilots working for less and Q not wanting to pay market rates hence the "457" visas. None of that is true. Imported labour will be paid the same as local labour. Fact.
They end up costing more as there are administrative costs associated with the visa process.
If you believe that, then what is your explanation for why it is occurring? Clearly there are plenty of experienced and qualified pilots already in Australia in GA and elsewhere.
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Old 9th Aug 2018, 03:41
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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Q don't want to pay more than the rate already which many beleive is below what the market rate should be. Bringing in 457 visa pilots will help keep any py rises to a minimum.
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Old 9th Aug 2018, 03:47
  #63 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Kranz View Post
If you believe that, then what is your explanation for why it is occurring? Clearly there are plenty of experienced and qualified pilots already in Australia in GA and elsewhere.
Maybe Iím gullible and believe the spin but I get the impression they are chasing senior and C&T types, which Iím pretty sure there is a global shortage of. Qualified? Yes. Experienced (or at least what Q are stating) probably not. Not too many of these are currently in the Oz GA scene waiting for the call up.
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Old 9th Aug 2018, 03:50
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Icarus2001 View Post
This thread is full of comments about overseas pilots working for less and Q not wanting to pay market rates hence the "457" visas. None of that is true. Imported labour will be paid the same as local labour. Fact.
They end up costing more as there are administrative costs associated with the visa process.
The thing is, the market rate SHOULD be higher. If there is a shortage of something (labour in this instance) the price of that something SHOULD go up in response. Australian pilots have looked at the price being paid for their services and decided it is not high enough. They are now being bypassed.

This 457 visa is all about adding something else to the package (the eventual right to gain Australian citizenship) as an incentive for foreign pilots. It costs the company nothing and addressing the supply side issues with citizenship rather than pay increases is keeping wages artificially depressed.

I said it earlier. It's a fkn disgrace.
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Old 9th Aug 2018, 03:58
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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Basics of supply and demand, One can either increase supply by increasing T&C or increase supply by increasing the pool of applicants. Whatís cheaper?
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Old 9th Aug 2018, 04:01
  #66 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Global Aviator View Post
Sane bloke can go get an E3 Visa (actual shortage in US due 1500 hr rule) join a regional, do 5 years then go to China earn more than a SKYGOD and retire within 10 years.
Although I agree with the subtext of your post it comes across as a little hypocritical. Youíre against suitably qualified guys coming to Oz but youíre happy to head over to the US and China and take a job.

I agree there are true shortages in those countries (lets not go down the FAA 1500hr rabbit hole) although Iím sure their are local pilots who resent hearing the Aussie twang on the radio while theyíre flying single pilot night freight.

All that said, I agree with overall assessment that this is a shortage manifested by neglect and short-term profit taking by airline management.

To to be honest, I donít know where they are going to find 76 suitably qualified folk willing to work for what they are paying. Cost of living in Australia is very evotnsivev these days and unlike other high cost cities, Australian aircrew wages havenít caught up yet.
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Old 9th Aug 2018, 04:59
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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Pretty poor by qlink and the government.
i remember seeing qlink advertising in Canada about 12 - 18 months ago. They were willing to interview applicants on their recruitment drive, then I think the deal included qlink paying a sum for relocation.

Disgusting as they refuse to even offer staff travel for Australian hopefuls making their way to interviews from Broome/Darwin where flights can be a weeks wage.

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Old 9th Aug 2018, 05:16
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by stormfury View Post


Although I agree with the subtext of your post it comes across as a little hypocritical. Youíre against suitably qualified guys coming to Oz but youíre happy to head over to the US and China and take a job.

I agree there are true shortages in those countries (lets not go down the FAA 1500hr rabbit hole) although Iím sure their are local pilots who resent hearing the Aussie twang on the radio while theyíre flying single pilot night freight.

All that said, I agree with overall assessment that this is a shortage manifested by neglect and short-term profit taking by airline management.

To to be honest, I donít know where they are going to find 76 suitably qualified folk willing to work for what they are paying. Cost of living in Australia is very evotnsivev these days and unlike other high cost cities, Australian aircrew wages havenít caught up yet.
Maybe I wasnít clear enough. Iím saying that expat pilots are welcome and used anywhere if needed, Australia included.

When they are no longe needed they are fooked off.

The difference is Australia does not have a shortage and does not need expats.

Not enough trainers? Train more! Piss poor planning should not hold the bloke doing the hard yards back.

Whats a training course take? 4 weeks? Whatís induction time for a qualified trainer? Letís see license conversion......
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Old 9th Aug 2018, 05:51
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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The thing is, the market rate SHOULD be higher.
I love comments like this.

You know what your house is worth? Or your car? I will tell you. It is worth what someone is willing to pay for it, that is the beginning and end of it. not what YOU think it is worth or your estate agent for that matter.

Now whilst I agree with your idea that we should be seeing upward movement in wages with the current "shortage" I think this plan is looking for EXPERIENCED C&T and sim pilots. I agree that we will probably see a large move in wages at the next EBA negotiations. Again though, workers only get what they are prepared to fight for. If you want a 5% pay rise then work for it. Work to rule, no call outs, sign on AT sign on etc. From what I see there is plenty of crew room whining but little appetite for actually arguing for a pay rise.

(the eventual right to gain Australian citizenship)
That is not a given.

For those who are simply against ANY foreign pilots being employed here, how do you feel about all the Australian pilots working overseas?
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Old 9th Aug 2018, 06:14
  #70 (permalink)  
 
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Icarus,
The issue is that the Australian airlines have dug this hole for themselves. It is not a market shortage - it was a conscious decision by QF and others to not develop staff. The industry has not significantly expanded in Australia, it is just that the airlines have failed in their succession planning due to a want for money saving and immediate investor returns. Now they want to import skilled labour (which is admittedly missing) as a substitute for failing to invest in development over the last 10 years (like every other business in the world is expected to do). They should be forced to lay in the bed they made for themselves - and that means forking out a significant wad of cash to train & upgrade existing employees and bring in more junior pilots already here in Australia & gagging for the opportunity.

The US on the other hand is a market shortage situation from rapid industry expansion, not a refusal by airlines to invest in training. Although that may also exist (I'm not qualified to comment on that), it is not the cause of the shortage. Therefore, international recruitment is warranted.

Besides, do you think pilots in Australia would pack up their lives and move to a different country or just stay where they are?

Last edited by Kranz; 9th Aug 2018 at 06:41.
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Old 9th Aug 2018, 06:26
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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Has anyone thought about what if there are insufficient numbers of Australian pilots who actually WANT to get into check and training?

And what about even if there are some who do, they may not be suitable to do it?

Your average line pilot when asked if they want to get into check and training, the general response is along the lines of ďno effing way!Ē.

morno

Last edited by morno; 9th Aug 2018 at 07:04.
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Old 9th Aug 2018, 06:29
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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As has been said verbatim yes Aussie pilots can work overseas and many choose to, including myself.

Sure as [email protected] though when not needed your contract is over, simple.

The USA....... There is a thread on working in the USA but essentially regionals will pay for your relocation, give you a sign on bonus, pay for your initial hotel, pay for your ATPL conversion, pay for your type rating, NOT bond you.

Straya won’t even put proper succession planning in place and lobby’s the gubment for this 457 [email protected]

I am an expat for a reason, I feel for you all in the great land down under.
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Old 9th Aug 2018, 07:29
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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So these senior C and T people coming over on the 457 visa are going to be FO's? Going to pass on the knowledge from the RHS? Pretty sure Qlink dont have DEC.

And for the life of me will people stop using the example of Aussies working overseas. They are there because of a lack of local pilots and are gotten rid off when locals become availble.
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Old 9th Aug 2018, 07:33
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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Itís my understanding that with the 2 year Visa QantasLink got no interest. Hence they went begging in Canberra to get an exemption to 4 years. Not sure this was opposed or challenged by pilot associations at the time? Suspect they were unaware. If you canít lobby with Chairmanís lounge membership, first class upgrades and influence News Corp and Fairfax press then itís not easy.
Iím sure the unions have asked for proof of correct process. Given the Public mood opposing giving away Australian jobs it would have to be squeaky clean. Make a great 730 or bolt report segment were it not. Particularly as Qantas is the spirit of Australia and #Equalityis
Im not sure what Q link are paying or the details of the contract but the lack of interest sounds to be pay related and not residency related.
It will be interesting to see what difference 2 years makes. If the jobs are on the East coast or Sydney itís not a great deal with tax at 49%, Sydney house prices averaging over a million and a woeful commute daily.
Hopefully the AFAP AIPA and pilots get the word out and counter attack this.
They may have to offer more money regardless of foreigners or Aussies as the pilot shortage is getting worse globally.


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Old 9th Aug 2018, 07:38
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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Pilots object to Qantas hiring from overseas

Wednesday 8 August 2018 6:43PM (view full episode)

Qantas has struck a deal with the government to bring in dozens of pilots who don't currently call Australia home.

The agreement will allow 76 foreign pilots and instructors to come to Australia for up to four years, after which they could apply for permanent residency.

Qantas says its focus "has always been to recruit Australian-based pilots and that hasn't changed". It adds that "this agreement allows us to temporarily bring in a limited number of simulator instructors and experienced pilots from overseas to support one of the biggest training programs we have done in our history."

But Australian pilots aren't happy about the deal, as Captain David Booth from the Australian Federation of Air Pilots (AFAP) explains.

Full Podcast
ABC Radio
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Old 9th Aug 2018, 09:02
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pilotchute View Post
So these senior C and T people coming over on the 457 visa are going to be FO's? Going to pass on the knowledge from the RHS? Pretty sure Qlink dont have DEC.

And for the life of me will people stop using the example of Aussies working overseas. They are there because of a lack of local pilots and are gotten rid off when locals become availble.
Pilotchute,
QLink obviously will have DEC's. Can't see why they can't/won't.

As for the second part of your post. Why do you think overseas pilots are coming in as check and trainers? Would it be because there's not enough local pilots who want to do it?

Refer to my reply above in regards to existing Captain's becoming C&T.

morno
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Old 9th Aug 2018, 09:30
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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Morno,
In summary you are saying that there are suitably qualified pilots (i.e. there is no pilot shortage), and that the airlines aren't paying them enough to justify the role (i.e. 457 visas are being used as a mechanism to bypass paying market rates)?
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Old 9th Aug 2018, 09:40
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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What is more of concern here is the intent.

Clearly Qantas and the other protagonists will not telegraph intent.

Consider the impact of a prolonged shortage on airline strategy. No use playing checkers when the opponent is playing chess.
Using Qantas as the example:
  • Qantas has open enterprise agreements with (from our understanding) both their domestic and international pilots.
  • Qantas is acutely aware of the prolonged and extended shortage.
  • Qantas is desperate to hold unit cost where they like it ( so pilot remuneration stays where it is)
  • Union acquiescence? Not known.
  • Line pilots agitating for improved terms and conditions (remuneration) as they are also acutely aware of the shortage.
  • Inept federal parliament of either persuasion, will continue to mutter about wage growth, then rather quickly grants exemptions to employer groups (for the previously well established reasons) Employer groups love immigration as it holds labour wage claims to near zero in real terms.
IFF this 'program' provides substantial applicants, it is highly probable that the applicants will be moved to entities like Network with A320, or Qantaslink, even through to JQ. It is probable that the Qantas mainline pilot recruitment numbers will be the last to feel the effects of the shortage, thereby buying time. (From reading the press releases, it isn't clear how much airline's want!) In other words, this is not for a definite time frame. Consider carefully, that Qantas does not say until 2020 when our 'pilot college' trains XXX pilots. The agreement is likely open ended.


Having an alternative workforce in place, whether from fair means or foul, is extremely important. This is precisely what JQ provided for a decade. As former CEO Gregg testified to your Federal parliament, that JQ provided 'competitive leverage' against labour unit cost. (The decode was transfer flying until Qantas people give up wage claims!)

Returning to the first bullet point. If Qantas IR/HR delay 'negotiation's will the unions force to arbitration or indeed proceed to undertaking protected industrial action? (This is unknown!)
Delaying negotiations and playing for time is precisely what they (IR/HR) need with their fingers crossed they hold the line long enough for a 'strike breaking workforce' to be in place.

It seems axiomatic when viewed from afar that time is what airline managements in Australia need. With a Federal election due this could be of relevance too.

For the pilots reading this post, can your management be trusted to deal in good faith?
The market for pilots will clear. The problem for airline management is that will do everything to avoid market rates (unless of course that direction means a reduction in salary)
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Old 9th Aug 2018, 10:23
  #79 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Kranz View Post
Morno,
In summary you are saying that there are suitably qualified pilots (i.e. there is no pilot shortage), and that the airlines aren't paying them enough to justify the role (i.e. 457 visas are being used as a mechanism to bypass paying market rates)?
Not at all. What Iím saying is has anyone considered the possibility that the internal pool of potential check and training captains has been exhausted and now they donít have a choice but to recruit externally?

Man there are some paranoid people on here.
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Old 9th Aug 2018, 10:33
  #80 (permalink)  
 
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Firstly- While I often get done for my gramma and spelling thats fine, but if you actually want that pilot job with Qlink - it aint a 457 visa, be a pro and call it what it is by sub class number. Might even help to reseach the process. It has been a long time since 457 applications were stopped, there are still some in the processing pipeline.

I got a message from a new immigrant (dont think a pilot) yesterday on a another different forum

"Been in Australia for a month now, just landed a dream job today and having the best winter of my life.

Iíll tske sunny and 20 degrees in Brisbane over -17 degrees in Vancouver any day."

I replied, then got this today.

Iíd love to see *****, all of Australia really. Iím just so happy to be here. Itís just such a wonderful country with great people. I canít say enough good about it, man.

The job I got here is near identical (save for the industry it is) that I had back home but with 2x the pay, bonuses and 5 weeks annual leave. I literally feel like Iíve won th lottery.

So, it might only be 2:17 pm, but Iím here, in sunny Queensland enjoying a nice cold XXXX. Canít complain.

Thanks for the high marks on my application by the way. Feel for that guy and his Mrs back in Canada that applies a week before us and hasnít heard anything. But, we really really did our homework and put forth an application that I think was the best possible application to put forward.

Thanks again for all the chats and all the advice and wisdom, Bendy. Iíll find my way up to ****** one day and weíll get that case.

- Mitch

I did see a few countries mentioned for sourcing pilots Canada and South Africa and some others.
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