Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

457’s are back!

Old 7th Aug 2018, 06:59
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Keith Myath
Qantaslink as recently as 2015 closed bases, force transferred pilots across the country and demoted Dash captains. When a company so comprehensively mismanages its workforce planning; they don't deserve to be rewarded for such incompetence.
100% spot on. A disgusting and unnecessary move made by someone in management trying to contribute to the transformation program. Consider the place transformed! Most of us have lost interest or moved on.
jetlikespeeds is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2018, 07:40
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Equatorial
Age: 51
Posts: 1,054
Received 115 Likes on 57 Posts
Be it Asia, USA or the Middle East countries bring in expat pilots when there are not enough locals. If there are enough locals out they go, Google SQ, VN for a start.

Australia simply does not have that issue, how the chook the government allowed it first time round baffles me.

Agree with many above 457 Visa’s only when there are no suitable pilots, which as we know does not mean type rated.

If this is allowed through just another spineless Aussie government.

I am all for industry being able to propsper but not at the hands of the bloke who has done the hard yards.

Global Aviator is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2018, 08:01
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 3,067
Received 138 Likes on 63 Posts
Short of removing Govenment, what do you suggest? A national strike?
Exactly. And a change in government to Labor would change nothing. At that level there is no differentiation between the two. Just look how weak Labor were during the lockout. Noone stood up Joyce. Just stood back and let him dictate terms.

Until Pilot Unions start having professional lobbyist in Canberra nothing will change and the entire aviation industry here will be hollowed out until there are no locals left to hire.
neville_nobody is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2018, 08:26
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Harbour Master Place
Posts: 662
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
A very astute series of observations Kieth. I've made the argument before that the union movement has been emasculated progressively since the 70's so that it has been effectively outlawed in all but name only. Howard's IR law were the final nail with only a very limited allowable matters to be included. Clauses that prevent or constrain outsourcing, offshoring or corporate sleigh of hand transmission of business (example Network under the guise of LINK) cannot be included in agreements, nor will FWA agree to Protected Industrial Action over such issues. The principle of Managerial Prerogative (Managers run the business as they see fit, labour has no right to be any part of the decision making) has been affirmed by the High Court. Managers run the business, labour does as it is told.

Negotiations are now a set piece play, and once an agreement is locked in place it is essentially illegal to withdraw labour. The right to progression in this industry DOES NOT EXIST.

Given the enormous asymmetry in power and clout this hands managers, it is no surprise that in like in many industries manager sought to extract this advantage to the hilt with very large short term cost savings and maximise profit. If you pick up any basic finance text (Corporate Finance, Ivo Welch Chapter 2, free on his website), the Time Value of Money is emphasised as the key driver of the modern world.

We begin with the concept of rate of return, the cornerstone of finance. You can always earn an interest rate (and interest rates are rates of return) by depositing your money today into the bank. This means that money today is more valuable than the same amount of money next year. This concept is called the time value of money (TVM)—$1 in present value is better than $1 in future value.
Translation: A buck today is so much more valuable than a buck and change next week.

This is exactly what we observe in Aviation, companies have failed to invest and return the cost saving and profit to reinvest in the their businesses beyond the absolute minimum - lack of training pilots is a prime example. That is what the major shareholders wanted. They wanted the cost savings converted to the present value through increased returns. For every $ saved in headcount and reduced training, a manager can take that $ buy back the stock, hence raise it's price and enable the shareholder to capture in increase capital gains, the value having be transferred from the employee.

Managers don't see the fact that they extinguished and exploited the entire industry, extracting every last morsel out the system as a problem. They simply see offshore pilots paid less than the Australian market rate and look to exploit that resource. Pilots are not human beings to the managers, they are just a series of skills to be acquired at the cheapest price. Pilots are simply widgets to be moved around, trained and used as sparingly as possible in the short term.

As long as they have compliant clients in the Federal Parliament who they can upgrade, wine & dine at the Chairman's lounge (which if a Union did, would be seen as corrupt misappropriation of member funds) and they can source labour elsewhere, they will have the rules changed. I have trouble distinguishing between the mafia & senior executive in this industry.

Failing to do so would incur enormous costs to rebuild to the local industry, because they represent a very large component of it, and the heaviest burden would fall on them. Unfortunately, the global industry has changed in the meantime, with managers globally all working from the same model assuming that they could all pull the same play. This is unsurprising, given this has been the finance driven Modus Operandi since the late early 80's LBO junk bond "Greed is Good" era. Unfortunately for the shareholders (mostly the worker with Superannuation accounts, oh the irony), the managers failed to correctly assess the demographics loss simultaneously with the expansion away from large aircraft to smaller point-to-point business model and Chinese market exploding. In my view, the industry is facing at least two decades to rebuild. They will have a great deal of trouble attracting and retaining the skills they need for the foreseeable future with the pay available elsewhere. Residency and citizenship is really the only carrot they have.
CurtainTwitcher is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2018, 09:02
  #45 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Global Citizen
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
+1 for Keith and CT.

Originally Posted by CurtainTwitcher
Managers don't see the fact that they extinguished and exploited the entire industry, extracting every last morsel out the system as a problem.
Exactly! This is the principle problem with current aviation management. I’d highly recommend reading ‘The next crash’, it portrays the American experience with cost cutting and ‘money now’ mindset of airline management and the impact on the health, safety and longevity of the industry as a whole. Although they are at the point now in the US that they’re reaping what they’ve sown and no amount of pay rises or sign-on bonuses will provide a real, long-term, solution.

Amazon Amazon

Last edited by stormfury; 7th Aug 2018 at 09:22.
stormfury is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2018, 09:28
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: S33E151
Posts: 1,086
Received 59 Likes on 29 Posts
V-Jet is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2018, 09:41
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,674
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by V-Jet
It is things like this that reassure that others see the lunacy too
Rated De is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2018, 09:52
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,674
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Translation: A buck today is so much more valuable than a buck and change next week.

This is exactly what we observe in Aviation, companies have failed to invest and return the cost saving and profit to reinvest in the their businesses beyond the absolute minimum - lack of training pilots is a prime example. That is what the major shareholders wanted. They wanted the cost savings converted to the present value through increased returns. For every $ saved in headcount and reduced training, a manager can take that $ buy back the stock, hence raise it's price and enable the shareholder to capture in increase capital gains, the value having be transferred from the employee.

Managers don't see the fact that they extinguished and exploited the entire industry, extracting every last morsel out the system as a problem. They simply see offshore pilots paid less than the Australian market rate and look to exploit that resource. Pilots are not human beings to the managers, they are just a series of skills to be acquired at the cheapest price. Pilots are simply widgets to be moved around, trained and used as sparingly as possible in the short term.
This is precisely why the French declared when setting pay rates for pilots 'les compagnies aériennes ne ressemblent à aucune autre'

The reason why we spent the time on the Qantas fleet shows exactly how a slick CFO manufactures a transformation, complete with manufactured decline and huge volumes of share options and a conga line of analysts, even union leaders ask no questions and instead wait their place in line. Qantas need a new fleet, senior management failed in an elementary function of strategic planning: fleet replacement.


Qantas management have borrowed from the future to pay for their own largess. Candidly when US pension funds own big blocks of Qantas stock, who cares whether down the track the company needs new aircraft?
The IR/HR model is predicated on unending supply and even when confronted with evidence of a shortage, it is all rather simple, bring in a 'Stream Lead' to help maintain the status quo and undermine the employment market for one last waltz.

They have failed again, with respect to strategic planning for flight crew and instead decide it is more to their liking to undermine the very nation for which they fly a flag of convenience.
Rated De is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2018, 10:06
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Parliament
Posts: 40
Received 7 Likes on 4 Posts
there would an uproar if the state government tried to do this with train drivers
JoeTripodi is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2018, 12:18
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Saigon
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Qantas to recruit overseas pilots for long-term

https://www.afr.com/news/policy/industrial-relations/qantas-steers-around-457-visa-crackdown-with-deal-for-overseas-pilots-20180805-h13knt

http://australianaviation.com.au/2018/08/qantaslink-to-bring-in-overseas-pilots-and-instructors/
MeLuvUlongtime is offline  
Old 8th Aug 2018, 05:00
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Lagrangian point 2
Posts: 282
Received 33 Likes on 7 Posts

https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/201...oreign-pilots/


Nothing to do with a shortage. Everything to do with keeping wages low.

The Chairmans Lounge has been put to good use, or rather, it has served its purpose.
ExtraShot is offline  
Old 8th Aug 2018, 06:27
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,674
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by ExtraShot

https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/201...oreign-pilots/


Nothing to do with a shortage. Everything to do with keeping wages low.

The Chairmans Lounge has been put to good use, or rather, it has served its purpose.
Precisely, markets clear when the price rises and this is all about preserving the status quo. The demographics at play mean for the first time they are on the wrong side.

Despite government officials lamenting 'lack of wage growth' they do not want it. The other side won't change the rules either as donations (like Chairman's lounge-soft corruption) come thick and fast from the same business lobby groups,

However, as witnessed in the Northern Hemisphere, Michael O'Leary and Ryanair who remain the poster child of adversarial IR/HR have retreated. There is growing awareness of the structural, prolonged and generational shortage. Hence he has backed away publicly from confrontation. Pilots know leverage is theirs. Do Australian pilots?
Rated De is offline  
Old 8th Aug 2018, 07:38
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 610
Received 137 Likes on 44 Posts
Where precisely is the carefully considered, well researched and coordinated media campaign from the union leadership?
Here, AIPA media release

And here is the subsequent article from The Australian;



Beer Baron is offline  
Old 8th Aug 2018, 07:49
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Nz
Posts: 431
Likes: 0
Received 12 Likes on 5 Posts
The driving force behind the push for four-year visas for pilots is two- fold,” Higgins said.

“Firstly, it takes about four years of experience in the right-hand seat before you can sit in the left-hand seat and gain a command and during that four-year period there is a training and mentoring relationship that is very important and we would like to see that relationship unbroken so that’s why we are requesting four-year visas.”
Trying to suggest a relationship between how long it takes an individual Australian pilot to upgrade and the length of time the foreign labour is needed is rediculous. Either Higgins has no idea what he is talking about or he is dishonest.
73qanda is offline  
Old 8th Aug 2018, 22:23
  #55 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Global Citizen
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
And they’re off!

The race to the bottom has begun!
Why work in Brisbane?
Whether it’s pristine beaches, rainforests or city life that floats your boat, Brisbane has it all. We enjoy almost year-round sunshine and are a stone’s throw away from some of the world’s most pristine beaches.
In Brisbane, lifestyle is everything. We even enjoy 12 (yes, 12) public holidays per year.
Property prices and inner-city rentals are within reach, with bargains to be had. Overall, Brisbane is a fantastic place to live for both families and single professionals.https://www.seek.com.au/job/36900670?type=standout
stormfury is offline  
Old 8th Aug 2018, 22:44
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
All current management in all Airlines have their Genisis in Beancounting......It is a truism the Beancounters “Know the Price of everything.........but the VALUE of Nothing “
Hugh Mungus is offline  
Old 9th Aug 2018, 01:15
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Equatorial
Age: 51
Posts: 1,054
Received 115 Likes on 57 Posts
Let’s see... A bloke with 1768 hours in a C210 and PA31 (yes cadet Google what they are) would take let’s see, 3-6 weeks for a sim and rating on a Q400-B787.

A 457 bloke needs an ASIC, medical, blah......

No we do not have shortage.

Sane bloke can go get an E3 Visa (actual shortage in US due 1500 hr rule) join a regional, do 5 years then go to China earn more than a SKYGOD and retire within 10 years.

Straya.....
Global Aviator is offline  
Old 9th Aug 2018, 01:39
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Tent
Posts: 916
Received 19 Likes on 12 Posts
I wonder how many US citizen pilots with 1000 - 1400 hours are bitching about current rules that allow foriegners to take their jobs?

Should the regenals over there not just train up these pilots and employ them instead of issuing E3 visas?

* But an E3 does not lead to a green card!
True often it will not but tell that to the Yank with 1,000 hrs that is flipping burgers.
Also Australianpilots (most) are against any Pilots comming in to work even if they are the 2 year with a 2 year option (once only) Skilled Worker Visa with NO path to Citizenship.

I think the better optoin would have been to suport the 2 year work visa and require more training for up comming Australian pilots as a catch up to the current "shortage". This would have probably increased real wage growth for most, but not been the overnight massive increases in pay many seemed to be expecting. Pilots coming to work for 2 to a max of 4 years will be less in numbers applying, and wanting more in $'s as renumeration.

This would have given the airlines a band-aid not a cure.
Bend alot is offline  
Old 9th Aug 2018, 01:43
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Brisvegas
Posts: 3,860
Likes: 0
Received 233 Likes on 99 Posts
This thread is full of comments about overseas pilots working for less and Q not wanting to pay market rates hence the "457" visas. None of that is true. Imported labour will be paid the same as local labour. Fact.
They end up costing more as there are administrative costs associated with the visa process.
Icarus2001 is offline  
Old 9th Aug 2018, 01:59
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Icarus2001
This thread is full of comments about overseas pilots working for less and Q not wanting to pay market rates hence the "457" visas. None of that is true. Imported labour will be paid the same as local labour. Fact.
They end up costing more as there are administrative costs associated with the visa process.
If you believe that, then what is your explanation for why it is occurring? Clearly there are plenty of experienced and qualified pilots already in Australia in GA and elsewhere.
Kranz is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.