New pilots on the 737. Watch that pitch up on go around
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New pilots on the 737. Watch that pitch up on go around
https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aar-...september-2007
There has been a steady increase in recruiting of pilots by Australian Boeing 737 operators, with one operator sending its recruits overseas for abbreviated (by Australian standards) type ratings. Anecdotal evidence suggest that particular 737 type rating course has a duration of two weeks.
Overseas incidents and accidents involving the Boeing 737 series, include failure by crews to contain the marked pitch up that can occur in the 737 when high thrust is applied.as during a manually flown go-around. Autopilot controlled go-arounds are different in that the automatics are programmed to apply less than normal go-around thrust and the autopilot takes care of that quite safely.
The consequences of leaving recovery action too late from a high angle pitch up during a manual throttle full power go-around in the 737, is not often demonstrated during simulator type rating training; yet in the view of the writer, it should be.
The above link to the UK Air Accidents Investigation Board investigation of a severe pitch up by a Boeing 737 during a go-around in UK. is worth reading by all 737 operators in Australia. It should be essential study by pilots new to type.
Full report here: https://assets.publishing.service.go...009_G-THOF.pdf
There has been a steady increase in recruiting of pilots by Australian Boeing 737 operators, with one operator sending its recruits overseas for abbreviated (by Australian standards) type ratings. Anecdotal evidence suggest that particular 737 type rating course has a duration of two weeks.
Overseas incidents and accidents involving the Boeing 737 series, include failure by crews to contain the marked pitch up that can occur in the 737 when high thrust is applied.as during a manually flown go-around. Autopilot controlled go-arounds are different in that the automatics are programmed to apply less than normal go-around thrust and the autopilot takes care of that quite safely.
The consequences of leaving recovery action too late from a high angle pitch up during a manual throttle full power go-around in the 737, is not often demonstrated during simulator type rating training; yet in the view of the writer, it should be.
The above link to the UK Air Accidents Investigation Board investigation of a severe pitch up by a Boeing 737 during a go-around in UK. is worth reading by all 737 operators in Australia. It should be essential study by pilots new to type.
Full report here: https://assets.publishing.service.go...009_G-THOF.pdf
Last edited by Tee Emm; 28th Jun 2018 at 08:08.
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Ancient history!
Since then a considerable number (in their hundreds) of new hire GA pilots continue to be recruited by Australian airlines and are now co-pilots on the 737 series. If cadets, they would have been flying professionally in a 737 for a year and are now second in command; but with little knowledge of the past on what can bite them in the 737 or any other jet with underslung engines.
From personal knowledge in the training game, there is direct evidence that during type rating training on the 737, either in Australian or overseas simulators, the priority of type rating candidates is to pass the course asap and start earning a crust. The need to know has priority of nice to know.
Few simulator instructors have the time, inclination and professional interest in their student's professional development to pass on their own knowledge of 737 incidents or accidents. It is left to students to dig out their own information; again, if they are keen enough to do so and are previously aware of past lessons. Lawyers often refer to past cases in their judgements; yet are not derided for quoting "Ancient History".
Pprune is an invaluable repository of technical and accident investigation knowledge to those pilots determined to learn from past events. It is churlish to knock those who are interested in passing on the lessons of the past.
Last edited by sheppey; 29th Jun 2018 at 13:10.
Perhaps Whiskery was responding to John's comment:
I don't think he was down-playing the valuable info from Tee Emm...
Don't folk scan any more ?
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As It has always been and always will on the Classic and NG B737 and probably the MAX. If an Airline Standards Department is not demonstrating two engine,double click TOGA go arounds in their sessions then they are do not understand the aircraft or their role.
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It’s a fair point but remember the 300 was a pocket rocket, had far more pitch tendencies than the 400 or the NG, but still a valid point, pretty sure the only classics flying in oz are a few freighters. The NG does of course have a pitch up tendency but nothing like the 300 had.
Fly the aeroplane!
The 737 is no different; except propeller driven types will also yaw as well as pitch up during a landing configuration go-around, and that has the potential to lead to an incipient spin.
From reading a recent ATSB accident report on a night go-around in a Cirrus 22, it would seem the expected strong pitch up and yaw after a bounced landing may not have been contained quickly enough by the pilot or instructor. . As the go-around was at night, instrument flying skill may also have been a factor. See: https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...r/ao-2018-038/
Early intervention to contain a pitch up is vital; especially in IMC or dark night condition. One good reason students should not be sent solo at night until proved competent at go-arounds at the flare - not just at 200 feet.
Last edited by Centaurus; 30th Jun 2018 at 14:17.
It’s a fair point but remember the 300 was a pocket rocket, had far more pitch tendencies than the 400
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This whole problem is aggravated by Boeing choosing not to build an Auto Throttle system in the 21st Century that can remain turned on during landing. Thus every Go Around in the 737 has to be done at full thrust until the autothrottle is turn back on during the busiest phase of flight. 
Why does every go around have to be flown at max thrust just because there is no auto throttle. Our SOP is to brief a sensible thrust setting for the aircraft weight. 85 to 90 % N1 will get it climbing, and then you can adjust it once you’re away from the ground.
But what I don’t understand is the comment about 21st century autothrottles. They designed it to work that way in the 20th century, select speed mode on final approach, and the A/T goes to arm
and gives you both underspeed protection and automatic go around thrust if you press TOGA. There are possible issues with uncommamded thrust lever movement in very turbulent conditions, and it is presumably because of that and possible
litigation as a result that the FCTM says that Boeing don’t recommend it. But we used to do it at the first 737 operator I worked for and I don’t remember it being a problem, but nowadays it is frowned upon.
of course the other cure for these issues is to train two engine go arounds properly in the sim, rather than just flying them at the end of a dual channel approach during LVO training.
But what I don’t understand is the comment about 21st century autothrottles. They designed it to work that way in the 20th century, select speed mode on final approach, and the A/T goes to arm
and gives you both underspeed protection and automatic go around thrust if you press TOGA. There are possible issues with uncommamded thrust lever movement in very turbulent conditions, and it is presumably because of that and possible
litigation as a result that the FCTM says that Boeing don’t recommend it. But we used to do it at the first 737 operator I worked for and I don’t remember it being a problem, but nowadays it is frowned upon.
of course the other cure for these issues is to train two engine go arounds properly in the sim, rather than just flying them at the end of a dual channel approach during LVO training.
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But what I don’t understand is the comment about 21st century autothrottles.
... at full thrust? Ahh, no.
Last edited by ga_trojan; 1st Jul 2018 at 08:45.
FlyDubai at Rostov: https://www.popularmechanics.com/fli...rash-illusion/
Tatarstan airlines at Kazan: https://fearoflanding.com/accidents/...stan-part-two/
And many more.
Tatarstan airlines at Kazan: https://fearoflanding.com/accidents/...stan-part-two/
And many more.
A/T on most other aircraft built in the last 30 years remain on and you only have to push a button or move the thrust levers in the case of Airbus to set GA Thrust. Why can't the 737 be that simple? And yes it may actually be a policy issue rather than system design.
If you set some sort of 'average' N1 figure for a reduced ROC GA and something happened as a consequence I would suggest it would not look good in the subsequent safety investigation.
I have asked around about this very issue and had a look at the technical forums on PPRUNE and I am not convinced that you can just go and set 90% and off you go. Best solution I came up with and which C &T seem to agree on is to set the bug then get the A/T back in when you can and let it do the 1000-2000fpm bit.
If you set some sort of 'average' N1 figure for a reduced ROC GA and something happened as a consequence I would suggest it would not look good in the subsequent safety investigation.
I have asked around about this very issue and had a look at the technical forums on PPRUNE and I am not convinced that you can just go and set 90% and off you go. Best solution I came up with and which C &T seem to agree on is to set the bug then get the A/T back in when you can and let it do the 1000-2000fpm bit.
And as for the findings of the subsequent safety investigation, they would be that the go around had been initiated in accordance with the company SOPs, as written in the OPS manual and as trained by the company training department in the simulator. It works, and as much as I admire PPRUNE as a source of information I am happy to fly the aircraft in accordance with company SOPs.
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The 737 is that simple, once you select speed on the approach. Autothrottle goes to arm mode, you move the thrust levers manually but if you press TOGA you get go-around thrust.
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The NG does of course have a pitch up tendency but nothing like the 300 had.
Now, if you REALLY want a pitch up on the miss, try a full flap miss at minimum speed on a Super Cub ....
Now, if you REALLY want a pitch up on the miss, try a full flap miss at minimum speed on a Super Cub ....