MEL Tower — Go Slow?
Or the controller hasnt had enough coffee 🤷*♂️
Firstly, there is an "agreement" that pilots won't ask and that you'll be offered it if its available and works with the traffic.
Secondly, vacating via the rapid exit permits you call company to verify the bay. Rolling through to an occupied bay doesn't make much sense.
Last edited by missy; 10th May 2018 at 13:15. Reason: grammar
Rolling through to an occupied bay can make sense if there is no down side from an ATC perspective. It still gives an upside to the aircrew/ aircraft side of the equation.
Nunc est bibendum
Having to get off at an exit may require full reverse thrust and heavier braking. That delays engine cool down and takes longer before you can shut one down on taxi in. A roll through (and idle reverse) decreases the cool down time by up to three minutes. That’ll save 30kg a go. It’ll save wear and tear on both brakes and engine. I can’t quantify those numbers.
Having to get off at an exit may require full reverse thrust and heavier braking. That delays engine cool down and takes longer before you can shut one down on taxi in. A roll through (and idle reverse) decreases the cool down time by up to three minutes. That’ll save 30kg a go. It’ll save wear and tear on both brakes and engine. I can’t quantify those numbers.
Sorry, its a thread drift but I think it highlights were are even further away from a common understanding, common purpose and common application.
As my colleague said all those years ago "don't trust pilots", was he wrong, many days he was 100% correct.
Last edited by sunnySA; 13th May 2018 at 06:57. Reason: grammar
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I realise that there was a lot of variable, unless there is tailwind then I would think its unlikely that you'll need to use full reverse thrust and heavier breaking to make the rapids at either A2 or B9. Perhaps you need to review your exit speeds on this taxiways and get the call in to Ground so that they can you the cross or the taxi via if they need to park you a further distance from the apron. I'd like to keep the punters moving at a consistent but slower pace (the illusion of movement) rather than hurry up and wait. I'll be changing immediately to the hurry and wait, let them go onto the apron like the Qantas for bay 2 did this week. Conditional clearance to pushback given at bay 3 subject to the inbound to bay 2. Bay 2 pipes up - oh we're on bay 2. Great stuff.
Do your job and let them do their's.
Yet again an ATC sticking their ill informed nose into the cockpit.
Do your job and let them do their's.
Judging by the lack of ML tower responses on here maybe we think the same of pilots.
Do your job and let them do their's.
Judging by the lack of ML tower responses on here maybe we think the same of pilots.
Last edited by RAC/OPS; 11th May 2018 at 23:46.
Incidentally, I was SLF on a flight Cairns to Brisbane the other day and we were held for 25 mins on the ground prior to departure due to whatever issue ATC had at Brisbane. I know it wasn't weather or a runway disaster. Same happened Perth - Brisbane recently. I simply cannot fathom that Australia has such a volume of traffic that aircraft are held on the ground prior to departure to ensure a slot on the other side of the country. Talk about a broken system. Wait till the volumes really ramps up....oh yeah that won't be until 2100.
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There was a day,long,long ago,when ATC were Aviators,or,at the very least,had done observation sectors during training,so they had some idea how an aircraft operates.Major Airlines had regular consultation with AirServices to review performance,on both sides,with a view to improving the system.All that went out the window when the Howard Government went to full cost recovery at AirServices and sold off Melbourne Airport.The result decades later?The debacle we all live with today.The system today is C+ at best and sometimes way less than that.Whoever is to blame, let me ask ATC viewers this; do you want your family on an RPT flight out of say ,Canberra, carrying Company flight planned fuel that assumes NOTAMed holding (usually 10 minutes), on a gin-clear CAVOK day,that gets airborne and is immediately given a Hazard Alert of 45 minutes holding.Reason? Greater than 5 knots tail wind on Rwy 27.If anybody cant see the sheer stupdity of that then I'm on a different planet.And there is plenty more where that came from.The system is broken.Everybody on the rest of the planet knows it.
Snoozer, "LCD" simply means the minimum standard, it says nothing about the level of that standard. Why is it so hard to understand that if more aircraft are planned to arrive than can be accommodated in a given period then there will be delays? Surely it's better to absorb some of the delay on the ground than by burning fuel in the air?
...The debacle we all live with today.The system today is C+ at best and sometimes way less than that.Whoever is to blame, let me ask ATC viewers this; do you want your family on an RPT flight out of say ,Canberra, carrying Company flight planned fuel that assumes NOTAMed holding (usually 10 minutes), on a gin-clear CAVOK day,that gets airborne and is immediately given a Hazard Alert of 45 minutes holding.Reason? Greater than 5 knots tail wind on Rwy 27.If anybody cant see the sheer stupdity of that then I'm on a different planet.And there is plenty more where that came from.The system is broken.Everybody on the rest of the planet knows it.
The rest of the planet is out of step with Australia’s award-winning, punching-above-our-weight, cutting edge, efficient and safest-in-the-world airport and airspace infrastructure and arrangements. This pretence must be maintained by the spivs who have been allowed to milk the hapless taxpayers who use airport infrastructure, the spivs who run Airservices, the spivs who run CASA and the spivs who run ATSB.
Snoozer, "LCD" simply means the minimum standard, it says nothing about the level of that standard. Why is it so hard to understand that if more aircraft are planned to arrive than can be accommodated in a given period then there will be delays? Surely it's better to absorb some of the delay on the ground than by burning fuel in the air?
Yet again an ATC sticking their ill informed nose into the cockpit. Forget who pays your wages?
Ultimately, the same people who pay yours.
Just my two bobs...
I reckon the guys and girls at the other end of the radio in Aus are really good value - returning home from O/S I am always glad to switch to Brisbane on HF and then my first contact on VHF. I always find the individuals are helpful and put in a maximum effort to assist with all sorts of stuff (CPDLC login issues/random requests/etc) within the confines of the system under which they work. In fact, most go out of their way to cheerily assist. I enjoy talking them, and I think they do a very good job.
Having said that, the ATC "System" in Australia is convoluted to the extreme, slow and inefficient. Eg Required time at fixes - particularly when one has smashed their way across the Great Australian Bight, only to be told to now do min speed to a relatively near fix. The traffic density in Aus does not justify this - the system should be smart enough to slow us an hour out, if it is REALLY required.
The separation requirement for lining up ahead of an aircraft on finals - in Australia, is this double that of the rest of the world? We often make the comment that we could have taken off twice before the aircraft on 10 mile final landed...
And, yes, in my experience, all of the above is exaggerated further in Melbourne - not sure why. Again, it's NOT THAT BUSY.
Some posters here have degenerated to a bit of "us" and "them" - it doesn't need to be like that, we need to work together to make it better.
I reckon the guys and girls at the other end of the radio in Aus are really good value - returning home from O/S I am always glad to switch to Brisbane on HF and then my first contact on VHF. I always find the individuals are helpful and put in a maximum effort to assist with all sorts of stuff (CPDLC login issues/random requests/etc) within the confines of the system under which they work. In fact, most go out of their way to cheerily assist. I enjoy talking them, and I think they do a very good job.
Having said that, the ATC "System" in Australia is convoluted to the extreme, slow and inefficient. Eg Required time at fixes - particularly when one has smashed their way across the Great Australian Bight, only to be told to now do min speed to a relatively near fix. The traffic density in Aus does not justify this - the system should be smart enough to slow us an hour out, if it is REALLY required.
The separation requirement for lining up ahead of an aircraft on finals - in Australia, is this double that of the rest of the world? We often make the comment that we could have taken off twice before the aircraft on 10 mile final landed...
And, yes, in my experience, all of the above is exaggerated further in Melbourne - not sure why. Again, it's NOT THAT BUSY.
Some posters here have degenerated to a bit of "us" and "them" - it doesn't need to be like that, we need to work together to make it better.
Snoozer, yes really. Take a group of mythical skygods and gun controllers of yesteryear and there was still be a spread of skill levels. Everyone has days they'd rather forget performance-wise and events they learn from. That is the systemic envelope we all operate within. Or does nobody ever go around due to something they've stuffed up or never overcook the spacing between aircraft in a sequence in your world? No, I'm not saying it's as efficient as it could be, but at some stage no matter how much you jam 'em up you run out of capacity sooner or later if too many try to arrive within a given time.
You might be able to nail the fix time to 10 seconds from a 1000 miles out, fantastic. But it just doesn't work well in the real world when there are more than a few aircraft in the sky. Do they actually use that as a sequencing technique anywhere in the world?
You might be able to nail the fix time to 10 seconds from a 1000 miles out, fantastic. But it just doesn't work well in the real world when there are more than a few aircraft in the sky. Do they actually use that as a sequencing technique anywhere in the world?
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Pot. Kettle. Black.
unless there is tailwind then I would think its unlikely that you'll need to use full reverse thrust and heavier breaking to make the rapids at either A2 or B9
Perhaps you need to review your exit speeds on this taxiways
Do your job, not their's
You might be able to nail the fix time to 10 seconds from a 1000 miles out, fantastic. But it just doesn't work well in the real world when there are more than a few aircraft in the sky. Do they actually use that as a sequencing technique anywhere in the world?
le pingouin To be clear, these are NOT your words, but often the ATC response to any of these problems is, 'too many aircraft pop up between xxxx miles and the airport whilst your chugging along, we can't manage this any better as they aren't part of any program/plan/system' You have the flight plan, they're coming! When I've queried why the traffic holding can't be increased BEFORE I get airborne, the statement is much the same. 'We can't do anything about it.....'
Refer my statement above. Plenty of other airports have this issue yet don't have the problems. Sydney suffers from Canberra and Albury traffic just as much as Melbourne if not more.
Not attacking you mate, but you do seem to be in the know and the most dogmatic with response!
GA Driver, would you care to edit the first sentence as I have no idea what you mean.
Would it work better the way Sydney does it? All barrel on in and get given minimum, vectored all over the sky, 250 knot descent? You certainly don't get given a fix time way out for Sydney either. The big difference is the STARS into Melbourne go to the runway and for Sydney they don't.
Would it work better the way Sydney does it? All barrel on in and get given minimum, vectored all over the sky, 250 knot descent? You certainly don't get given a fix time way out for Sydney either. The big difference is the STARS into Melbourne go to the runway and for Sydney they don't.