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Qantas Australian pilot roadshows 2018

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Qantas Australian pilot roadshows 2018

Old 17th Apr 2018, 23:49
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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https://www.smh.com.au/business/careers/time-to-up-the-ante-to-get-more-female-pilots-says-qantas-boss-alan-joyce-20171122-gzqv6t.html

This article is from last year but doesnít it say it all?
Anyone saying that female applicants arenít getting an advantage over male applicants have rocks in their head.
ĎIn the past 12 months Qantas has almost doubled the number of female pilots in the pipeline.í Would be interesting to see the number of male vs female applications for that intake.
I just donít get why this is deemed acceptable in Australia these days.
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Old 18th Apr 2018, 02:11
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Why? Because every one is so shit scared of being labeled a sexist mysoginist.

Perhaps a freedom of information request showing percentage of male applicants successful vs percentage of female applicants successful?

Iím all for equal opportunity. I accept that traditionally some fields have been made unnecessarily difficult for women to be successful, including aviation.

But theyíre preferencing a gender to try and solve a gender preferencing issue. It beggars belief.
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Old 18th Apr 2018, 02:30
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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I have been told a lot of GA companies are unlikely to employ women knowing they are more likely to leave quickly. No point spending $$ to train them.
Not the girl's fault, but the fault of the new 'culture'.
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Old 18th Apr 2018, 06:18
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Why is there no push for more males in areas such as teaching and nursing where a vast majority of those employed are woman? (greater than 90% for woman I believe in nursing) I have yet to see these fields promoted to the lads but the drive for woman pilots regularly pops up in the media.

Funny how in industries where woman are more pronounced there is not even a solitary squeal.

We should be hiring the best pilots, teachers, nurses, etc regardless of their sex. Affirmative action is just nonsense if HR departments are knocking back quality candidates because there are quotas to fill.

Disclaimer - I have three wonderful daughters and so I am certainly a supporter of equal opportunities.
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Old 18th Apr 2018, 06:51
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Something that seems to have gotten lost in this thread drift is the fact that female pilots have to undergo all of the same testing of their male counterparts. Yes companies may be trying to get more woman to interview ( which has increased because it is actually advertised as a career path and promoted far more then it was 10 years ago) but that is as far as any preferential treatment may go. What happens on interview day comes down to the preparedness of each candidate regardless of gender.
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Old 18th Apr 2018, 07:10
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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What happens on interview day comes down to the preparedness of each candidate regardless of gender.
Although unfortunately the decisions made as a result of the post interview 'washup' may not necessarily reflect this.

I wonder if the same impetus applies to recruiting hetrosexual white males into HR and cabin crew roles, or have I overstepped a PC line with such thiughts?
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Old 18th Apr 2018, 10:24
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Aviatrix91 View Post
What happens on interview day comes down to the preparedness of each candidate regardless of gender.
This issue is the same regardless of the country or airline.

It presumes what happens in the panel interview is unfailingly, unequivocally objective and uniformly applied without bias or influence. Not sure I'd bet the grocery money on that one as long as humans are running the process.

Sim ride ? Knowledge exam ? Pretty objective.

Panel interview ? Pretty iffy at its core.

Last edited by bafanguy; 18th Apr 2018 at 11:39. Reason: spelling
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Old 18th Apr 2018, 10:44
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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The choice is subjective and normally comes down to one person.
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Old 18th Apr 2018, 11:14
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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The more inquisitive may ask simply how does discriminating actually fix discrimination?

Watching news commentary online a woman journalist lamented the lack of funding for elite level women's sport as a final match was played.
The strikingly obvious lack of a crowd is probably a reason why. Somehow the answer was from the female presenter, that funding needs to come from the men's sport. given a large amount of the funding available is derived from advertising revenue, it is disappointing that a somewhat elementary explanation goes unsaid.
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Old 18th Apr 2018, 13:06
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Aviatrix91 View Post
Something that seems to have gotten lost in this thread drift is the fact that female pilots have to undergo all of the same testing of their male counterparts. Yes companies may be trying to get more woman to interview ( which has increased because it is actually advertised as a career path and promoted far more then it was 10 years ago) but that is as far as any preferential treatment may go. What happens on interview day comes down to the preparedness of each candidate regardless of gender.
True, women do the same testing as the men. Itís just that the results of that testing arenít given the weighting they should to determine the best candidate for the job, regardless of gender. The female candidates are not held up to the same standard as the males.

I was talking to an ex RAAF QFI who joined Qantas recently. He was involved in flight screening at Tamworth. Several times he had not recommended female candidates that had been given a job anyway.

On my nephewís flight screening intake one of the female candidates had a stress induced melt down and had to convinced to continue. This is one week into a two week flight screening assessment. How the hell would she handle a twelve month pilots course? No surprises, she wasnít recommended by the assessors. Guess what, she got a job anyway.
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Old 18th Apr 2018, 13:22
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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I'm all for more girls flying, but lets not pretend the standards at the current moment are the same, especially when there is so much evidence out that displays that.

Call a spade a spade, I would take the same opportunities if they were being thrown at me too and I don't think any less of anyone for making the best out of an opportunity that's being given to them; that's just common sense, but no one can pretend that's is a fair playing field.

Happy to admit it wasn't a fair playing field for girls the the previous 100 years though, something that is also overlooked, but two wrongs don't make a right.

Last edited by junior.VH-LFA; 18th Apr 2018 at 14:03.
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Old 18th Apr 2018, 13:43
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by junior.VH-LFA View Post
Happy to admit it wasn't a fair playing field for girls the the previous 100 years though, something that is also overlooked, but two wrongs don't make a right.
That, right there, spot on.

Iím all for a fair go for everyone regardless of sex, race, religion, or the football team you support, (all except Collingwood supporters of course. Some of them have just crawled out of the swamp.) but the fundamental flaw is you canít fight discrimination with discrimination. To do so does not solve the problem.

How would you like to be a female RAAF pilot who has actually achieved her credentials the same way we all did in the past? With hard work, aptitude and attitude. Iíve flown with some fine female aviators in my time and continue to do so today. They must quietly lament the short track thatís being offered to women today. Their head start cheapens the achievement of these very competent women of earlier times.
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Old 18th Apr 2018, 16:25
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting article frim a UK paper not long ago.

Father of 2 girls and university lecturer of engineering angry at his daughters high school for the borderline harassment his daughters received to choose STEM courses at University.

They achieved very good university entrance scores and qualified for most courses offered. Problem is they have no interest in STEM. "I have tried to get them interested but they just aren't". The oldest has enrolled in a business course and the younger in tourism.

The father beleives there is pressure from the Govt to push this because it makes them "look good" and scores points with many minority/pressure groups.
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Old 18th Apr 2018, 19:38
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Aviatrix91 View Post
What happens on interview day comes down to the preparedness of each candidate regardless of gender.
To be fair, without access to some very privileged corporate records. Weíd never know if that was true. Itís entirely possible that if only 10% of interviewees are female, and 50% of those hired are female, thatís how the cookie crumbled. But itís statistically unlikely for any demographic (race, gender etc.).

I completely agree that your statement above though. In that; that is how the world should work.
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Old 19th Apr 2018, 00:10
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Yes it’s how the world should work. Also, no crime, no war, no kids disadvantaged blah blah blah. It’s a fantasy.
Reality; After all the exams, personality testing, sim rides and HR panel interviews there is a small group of people who decide who gets a job and who does not. This group is made up of people no better and no worse than you or I. They have bias’s, they know what their boss wants, they seek an easy and assured path to promotion or longevity in their current role. They behave as humans behave.
To say
What happens on interview day comes down to the preparedness of each candidate regardless of gender.
is quite possibly one of the most naive comments I’ve read on PPRuNe.
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Old 19th Apr 2018, 00:34
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by framer View Post
Yes itís how the world should work. Also, no crime, no war, no kids disadvantaged blah blah blah. Itís a fantasy.
Reality; After all the exams, personality testing, sim rides and HR panel interviews there is a small group of people who decide who gets a job and who does not. This group is made up of people no better and no worse than you or I. They have biasís, they know what their boss wants, they seek an easy and assured path to promotion or longevity in their current role. They behave as humans behave.
To say is quite possibly one of the most naive comments Iíve read on PPRuNe.


One of the most accurate assessments of the interview process ever
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Old 19th Apr 2018, 01:02
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by framer View Post
Reality; After all the exams, personality testing, sim rides and HR panel interviews there is a small group of people who decide who gets a job and who does not. This group is made up of people no better and no worse than you or I. They have biasís, they know what their boss wants, they seek an easy and assured path to promotion or longevity in their current role. They behave as humans behave.
That hasnít suddenly happened in the last few years. Thatís been aviation employment for decades. How many pilots got jobs because they were mates with the chief pilot, mates with the recruiting staff or because they came from the ďold boys clubĒ over the years?

Now into the topic of favouritism towards female pilots. The only way to know for sure that there is a bias towards women would be to see that the amount of females who are given a job is much higher than the proportion of women whoíve applied for that job. None of us have the actual application figures but Iíve had a look at this document:

http://www.australianindustrystandar...killsStudy.pdf

Now towards the end of the document thereís a breakdown by gender on the number of licences issued from 2010 to 2015. The number of females being issued licences has risen for all licence types over that time towards 9%, especially in the ATPL issuances. Now given this is the period whereíd Iíd assume most of the people currently being employed would have gained their licence, and having a quick perusal at the actual amount of new recruits who are male vs female (those in the know will know how to find this), the actual proportion of female pilots being given jobs is only a couple of percentage points away from the number of licences they were issued with in that time period.

Iím not interested in what various airline managements have said about trying to increase the percentage of female pilots in the future, Iím interested in the reality now. And the reality is, as far as I can find, thereís no widespread discrimination toward females being offered employment over males at the present moment. The future will definately see an increase in the percentage of female pilots, as more are choosing to take flying training now. Iíve heard the average number of female enrolments in university flying courses at the moment is roughly 20-25%.

Last edited by dr dre; 19th Apr 2018 at 01:40.
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Old 19th Apr 2018, 02:21
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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I haven't seen a drive to balance out the gender inequality of ramp crews.

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Old 19th Apr 2018, 03:14
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Or honey cart drivers , either !
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Old 19th Apr 2018, 12:22
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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A different work sector but I think well stated.

http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/gender-quotas-are-an-insult-to-women/19198#.WtiJBaB_U0M
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