One pilot union for all Australian pilots.

[neville_nobody]

By using the word 'industry' I mean all of the aviation sectors inclusively. The same would apply outside of aviation. Other industries would do well to significantly limit the reach of their associated union groups as well.

The problem with the your theory is that Businesses are just likely to operate as a union as the workers are which is where your argument falls apart. The AMA, The Pharmacy Guild, The AA4A, Business Council of Australia etc etc all influence decision making for their respective members, and in some cases actively prevent competition in certain markets acting just like union.
And given how weak Pilot Unions are I would argue that most Business Unions wield more power than the pilot unions.

[Di_Vosh]

I'm not sure why any of you are bothering to give Lucerne any oxygen on this.

He's obviously either a Troll, Management stooge, Angel or an American (surprising amount of Americans share his views on unionised labour).

If you don't reply, he'll get the last word (and anyone of intelligence will see their lack of worth) and you can get back to discussing the thread.

DIVOSH!

[Lucerne]

Originally Posted by Street garbage

I'll call that for what it is..crap.
I'll ask the question again, how would a pilot be better on an IC rather than under an EBA?

That would depend on the individual SG. That's the beauty of individual agreements. They are not diluted among the masses or brought down by the average.

[Tankengine]

Originally Posted by Lucerne

That would depend on the individual SG. That's the beauty of individual agreements. They are not diluted among the masses or brought down by the average.

That shows the ignorance of what airline agreements are like that non airline pilots may have.
Apart from a very few management positions this is utter bull****.

[Lucerne]

Originally Posted by Tankengine

That shows the ignorance of what airline agreements are like that non airline pilots may have.
Apart from a very few management positions this is utter bull****.

You can thank your union for that then can't you? If the non-unionised sectors allow greater flexibility of the individual agreement then that's just one reason why the unionised sectors offer disadvantage to both employers and pilots alike.

[Fool Sufferer]

Attempting to reason and engage in constructive discussion with the above individual appears to be an exercise in abject futility.

Hard evidence, rational argument and irrefutable fact, have nil effect on the “thinking” of a zealot and fundamentalist, for whom ideology will always trump reality.

[Rated De]

Originally Posted by Lucerne

You can thank your union for that then can't you? If the non-unionised sectors allow greater flexibility of the individual agreement then that's just one reason why the unionised sectors offer disadvantage to both employers and pilots alike.

It is actually a very 'flexible' agreement that saw young children coal mining only a short while ago.
Perhaps the best example of 'flexible' agreements saw people turn up stand in line and hope for a job for the day. Is the modern day 'gig' economy a variant on this theme?

Unions have lost their way, captured by a political movement that increasingly is red team blue team. It matters little which side is voted for, the real wage will fall as more rent is extracted for main street feeding the insiders.
When one considers the rate of transition from unionist to politician, or indeed unionist to airline manager, the collective advancement 'promised' by membership to unions usually fails to materialise: Both sides are captive to the corporate.

Advancing the interests of a profession sometimes necessitates standing against the corporate management, not as apologists.
Interestingly SouthWest Airlines has a heavy union presence, a productive workforce and indeed remuneration that recognises the role of the need for an airline for people.

Qantas modern management represent nothing that the founders would recognise as 'leadership'. The Qantas founders would be very disappointed in the modern corporate method.
Ironically they would likely express a similar disappointment in the leadership of the labour movement.

[Tuner 2]

Back to the issue at hand, I heard that the AFAP may not have even correctly complied with its own rules to make the rule change - possibly throwing the whole thing out? Not sure if I would trust an organisation that might not be able to change its own rules to change my EBA.

[Iron Bar]

AFAP application dismissed by FWC today.

Tuner was right - insufficient votes for the proposed rule change under their own rules.

The good people at AFAP again embarrassed by the inept.

[Ratherbefishintoday]

The AFAP has voted to change its coverage rules to once again cover all Australian pilots. One pilot union for all Australian pilots, coverage from cradle to the grave; Student, GA, Aero-med, Charter, Rotary, Regional Airline, Domestic Airline, International Airline. Well done to the AFAP. 👍

The technicality that had the last proposal dismissed has been rectified. Thank you to AIPA, Qantas and the TWU for pointing that out🤡

[ITCZ]

Originally Posted by Lucerne

You can thank your union for that then can't you? If the non-unionised sectors allow greater flexibility of the individual agreement then that's just one reason why the unionised sectors offer disadvantage to both employers and pilots alike.

Folks, why feed this troll?

Here we have a fellow that only tells us he is a pilot aged 41. He freely offers his 'opinion' whilst denigrating unions.

I'll give you a tip - he's not a man, he's not a grownup. His is the entitled mind of a teenager in a grownups body.

What is a grownup?

A grownup is someone who goes out there and pursues the right things, in their own names.

Every pilot union rep in every company has done something that this wally actively avoids.

They put their name to their actions, popular or otherwise.

Every union rep at every australian airline company is known to the management. They push for what they believe in, and sometimes things they dont believe in but their constituent members tell them they have to push for. And they do it on the public record.

I normally don't bite when w@nkers like Lucerne start spouting sh!te. Twenty first century union reps cannot be thugs - old style CFMEA thuggery gets pilots fired and out of the industry. Lucerne has his opinion and opinions are like a~~holes, everybody got one, everybody thinks theirs is important, and not too many other people are really interested in yours.

I'll start paying attention to people like Lucern's opinions when they take the step that every pilot union rep past and present has done. Grab his company ID card, hold it up and take a selfie and post it here so we know who he is, who he works for, and what he represents. The basic step every pilot union rep he critiques has taken.

My money is on the fact that he won't. He won't have the courage and won't measure up to the men and women he disparages.

[machtuk]

Australia is a heavily divided nation in all walks of life inc aviation. The grubby Co's thrive on this, to create division as it stalls any meaningful negotiations, drags it out. causes in-house bickering, division, it's just the way businesses handle the ever boiling "them & Us" scenario These days the one thing that is able to be manipulated & variable is the work force, everything else the Co's can do little about to improve their situation. Unions don't have the clout anymore as they don't have the member support. '89 proved when push comes to shove on a large scale nobody wins !

[ITCZ]

Hmm, machtuk, understandable reaction if you subscribe to some of the opinions here.
It is popular to think that division is natural.
The truth is - to the frustration of the neo-conservatives amongst us, that community and self sacrifice are common traits in the natural world, not just some groups of humans.
I'd also like to think that the professional pilots that read these pages, would not give up flying a crippled aircraft because he/she was clearly finished!
In fact I've heard of many fatals where the crews kept trying to fly their fatally crippled machine right up to the point it hit the water/ground.
They were in it, they had nothing to lose and everything to gain.
This is our industry. After 15,000hrs, 10,000 of them in jets I don't want to give up on professional aviation.
The conditions I enjoy, are conditions I inherited, off the backs of others that came before me.
I'll resist degradation, and seek improvements, using lawful means, so long as I'm in it.

[theheadmaster]

Originally Posted by Ratherbefishintoday

The AFAP has voted to change its coverage rules to once again cover all Australian pilots. One pilot union for all Australian pilots, coverage from cradle to the grave; Student, GA, Aero-med, Charter, Rotary, Regional Airline, Domestic Airline, International Airline. Well done to the AFAP. 👍

The technicality that had the last proposal dismissed has been rectified. Thank you to AIPA, Qantas and the TWU for pointing that out🤡

So riddle me this: how do you expect things will play out now? How exactly is this going to lead to one pilot union? Some GA pilots that think that there is benefit in the MBF may be tempted to stay with AFAP when they get a job with Qantas, but I don’t expect a significant portion of any other group to seriously contemplate AFAP as the union of choice for Qantas mainline. I can also confidently say that if this was voted up in the expectation it would ‘force’ some kind of merger, that will not happen. AIPA has the resources and experience to represent mainline pilots. A merger that kept the AFAP structure would be too much of a risk for AIPA to contemplate.

[Tankengine]

Didn’t work in 1981, REALLY didn’t help in “that year”, can’t see it working now.

[Ratherbefishintoday]

Originally Posted by Tankengine

Didn’t work in 1981, REALLY didn’t help in “that year”, can’t see it working now.

Of course it can Tank. The MAIN problem here, as you have stated are the 'Pre 81 / 89' class.

Time to build a bridge

[GWhizz]

the AFAP structure

Can you elaborate on that?

[Pinky the pilot]

Time to build a bridge

Indeed, and I have no argument with that comment, Ratherbefishingtoday.

Otherwise I fear that the day is coming where if the Professional Pilots of Australia are not all hanging together, that certain sectors of Employers of these Pilots will ensure that they all hang separately!

Who was it that coined the phrase, Divide and conquer.?

[Livinthedream320]

Simple really !

If your union isn’t representing you as they should then resind your membership with them...Then request a full refund for all the moneys you have contributed to that organisation for your membership, as there is no point paying in advance for representation if your not getting a return for your investment. Your just throwing good money away.

You would achieve far greater results by contributing towards a kiddy for a no win no fee Lawyer.

Just my thoughts.

[wombat watcher]

Originally Posted by Livinthedream320

Simple really !

If your union isn’t representing you as they should then resind your membership with them...Then request a full refund for all the moneys you have contributed to that organisation for your membership, as there is no point paying in advance for representation if your not getting a return for your investment. Your just throwing good money away.

You would achieve far greater results by contributing towards a kiddy for a no win no fee Lawyer.

Just my thoughts.

See! Pilots are too too selfish, too tight, too arrogant, too ambitious, too psuedo independent,too willing to promote their own promotional advancement over others, too egotistical. That is why AIPA was formed in the first place. At least with that event, the selfishness, the arrogance, etc was reduced in exposure.