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One pilot union for all Australian pilots.

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One pilot union for all Australian pilots.

Old 7th Apr 2018, 00:33
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: In the Trees
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Unfortunately while AIPA is AIPA and AFAP is AFAP there will never be a single union representing pilots in Australia, and that’s to the detriment of all of us. This is a time when we could really be making gains industrially, but it won’t happen.
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 00:45
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: AUS
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As a QF pilot, why would I want to join the AFAP? They aren't respondents to my EBAs, they've never negotiated any of my EBAs and they have no expertise in my EBAs. They have no meaningful dialogue with my management. I have LOL coverage under my AIPA negotiated EBAs.... who are going to be mainline QF mainline pilot reps on the new AFAP mainline council? How are the finances/governance going to work? If afap somehow has 2400 mainline pilots members contributing 50, 60 or 70% of total subs to the afap, but only has a few votes, how well is that going to work?

AIPA is not perfect but I would rather go to some of their experts in scheduling, welfare etc than yet-to-be-named afap staff who have no knowledge of my agreement and my company.

I need to see good answers to these points before I would even half-consider the afap.
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 00:50
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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I hope the AFAP have changed their modus operandi, our GA company group left the AFAP and formed our own union after the AFAP threatened to send Norm Gallagher and his building union thugs down to sort us out.
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 02:00
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Australia
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Isn't AFAP the outfit that convinced its members to drink the Kool-Aid and resign en masse in 1989?
Correct,
The then President of AIPA addressed a mass meeting of AFAP in Melbourne, trying to dissuade AFAP from taking on Bob Hawke and Co. head on. He literally had rotten fruit thrown at him, and was booed off the stage.

Sadly, but quite predictably, everything that said AIPA President forecast, came to pass.

The AFAP "logic" of "The Government can't do 1,2,4,4 and we will win" became the Government did "1,2,3,4" and the AFAP lost, with a huge personal and monetary toll to all involved, promising careers by the hundreds, thousands, summarily cancelled by AFAP.

The vitriol against all AIPA members was disgusting, because we (AIPA Qantas pilots) refused to "go out" in sympathy.

Fact is we had no sympathy for such idiotic industrial behavior. We could all read industrial history, we understood the logic of the Hawke/Kelty "Wages accord". We knew that pilot bashing, like doctor bashing, was always fodder for the popular media, no support there.

We knew the domestics were on a hiding to nothing, you didn't need to be Einstein.

Thank goodness there was not the "social media" of today, because you see in some of the posts in this thread, all the animosity of '89 lives on.

I started off as a member of the NSW branch, transferred to OSB when I got a job with Qantas, and didn't originally support the split, but was one of a group who wanted to reform AFAP along the lines of US ALPA. However, our proposal went nowhere due to the complete imbalance of voting in the AFAP constitution, the complete dominance of the domestics. Of course, my group's views were based on the point that having one union, not two, was the obviously better position, industrially.

In the end, I supported the split, because we had no choice, operating in an international competitive market we understood that QANTAS could not afford the grossly excessive costs of AFAP operational restriction. Costs just lumped on the long suffering passengers under the "two airline agreement" cost plus domestic arrangement.

Not to mention, the fact that flying in the real world, we had no fear, indeed welcomed, technological change, for far to many in Australian domestic aviation, change is anathema.

I trust this proposal goes nowhere, I hope AIPA does not have to spend a fortune to defend their position, because that would be waste, but they have the funds, and, I am sure, the will, to do whatever is necessary to defend AIPA and its member's interests.

Tootle pip!!
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 02:53
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
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But its ok for AIPA - the Qantas Pilots Union, to cover Virgin pilots, Jetstar Pilots, Network pilots etc. Right......

Lots of great history lessons here, including some entertaining revisionism. Astounding that the dispute is called into play as a detractor..... really, 30 years later is AFAP still the same organisation? And what exactly did AIPA do to support their domestic brethein at that time....

AFAP are merely seeking to level the playing field for membership options. Once they have covereage of QF pilots (and they eventually will), QF pilots will be welcome to join, not forced. If you don’t want to join, don’t, real simple. I can assure you plenty will. However, unlike others, the AFAP COM structure will give you control over your own destiny.

AFAP are the only true ‘cradle to the grave’ pilot union in Australia. AIPA have historically not given a tinkers about GA or Regionals. In recent (I say recent cos to some here 30 years ago is still highly relevant) times they have inveigled their way into airline groups of ‘strategic interest’.
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 03:44
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
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As we mentioned in another thread on this matter, the REALLY interesting thing is that Qantas and AIPA both oppose the AFAP application.

It could be that Qantas prefer to have a 'known known' or simply AIPA are predictable, but when management and the pilot body are on the same side of the boat a critical mind asks why.
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 04:18
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Australia
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Tuner, has there been any request for you to be in another association?? I f you want to know the reason then just ring and ask, they will talk to you despite not being a member.
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 04:23
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
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Originally Posted by Don Diego View Post
Tuner, has there been any request for you to be in another association?? I f you want to know the reason then just ring and ask, they will talk to you despite not being a member.
Just tried to call and they aren't open today why don'y you just tell me?
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 04:27
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
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Originally Posted by Arthur D View Post
But its ok for AIPA - the Qantas Pilots Union, to cover Virgin pilots, Jetstar Pilots, Network pilots etc. Right......

Lots of great history lessons here, including some entertaining revisionism. Astounding that the dispute is called into play as a detractor..... really, 30 years later is AFAP still the same organisation? And what exactly did AIPA do to support their domestic brethein at that time....

AFAP are merely seeking to level the playing field for membership options. Once they have covereage of QF pilots (and they eventually will), QF pilots will be welcome to join, not forced. If you don’t want to join, don’t, real simple. I can assure you plenty will. However, unlike others, the AFAP COM structure will give you control over your own destiny.

AFAP are the only true ‘cradle to the grave’ pilot union in Australia. AIPA have historically not given a tinkers about GA or Regionals. In recent (I say recent cos to some here 30 years ago is still highly relevant) times they have inveigled their way into airline groups of ‘strategic interest’.
To my knowledge AIPA doesn't cover Virgin pilots. They only seek to cover pilots from the Qantas Group, for pretty bloody obvious reasons.

No one has yet answered why I would want to join the AFAP as a mainline pilot? Is it cheaper? Last time I looked the AIPA negotiated 787 deal in mainline was a hell of a lot better than the 787 pay in Jetstar, negotiated by the AFAP as much as anyone else. Every other AIPA-only negotiated deal is better than any AFAP-only or joint negotiated deals.

Not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand why it would possibly be appealing. Anyone????
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 05:02
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Arthur D
But its ok for AIPA - the Qantas Pilots Union, to cover Virgin pilots, Jetstar Pilots, Network pilots etc. Right......
If you are going to berate people about revisionism then you had better check your facts. AIPA do not have coverage of Virgin pilots. So your talk of ‘leveling the playing field’ of membership options is complete garbage.

AIPA only cover Australian based Qantas Group pilots.

As to why Qantas would oppose the application. Well would you rather negotiate an agreement between two parties or three? Much easier to only have to find common ground once.
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 05:14
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
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Originally Posted by Beer Baron View Post
Arthur D

If you are going to berate people about revisionism then you had better check your facts. AIPA do not have coverage of Virgin pilots. So your talk of ‘leveling the playing field’ of membership options is complete garbage.

AIPA only cover Australian based Qantas Group pilots.

As to why Qantas would oppose the application. Well would you rather negotiate an agreement between two parties or three? Much easier to only have to find common ground once.

So you’re telling me that AIPA had / has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with VIPA?

As for your last statement, completely agree! So why does AIPA continue to seek coverage of so many airlines outside of QF Mainline? Who appointed AIPA as the Qantas Group pilot union? ( rhetorical question BTW)
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 06:09
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Australia
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Lots of great history lessons here, including some entertaining revisionism
Arthur D,
And what revisionism would that be??

.. really, 30 years later is AFAP still the same organisation?
Unfortunately, the answer is, pretty much: Yes.

And what exactly did AIPA do to support their domestic brethein at that time....
And why would they, and cut their own throats, having warned, in advance, and all too accurately, of the consequences of declaring war on Bob Hawke as Prime Minister.

And everything I have seen and heard in recent years suggests to me that AFAP are very slow learners. Of course, being altogether too close to the mainstream union left in Victoria does not help. I am reminded that, for years, a particular very senior employee of AFAP harbored ambitions to Labor Senate pre-selection for the state of Victoria, which always made many of us very suspicious of his activities.

Tootle pip!!
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 06:56
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: oz
Posts: 264
Leakyboats - sink

"useful idiots" - Nasty little cuss today aren't you.

For what it's worth, I understand the application to cover QF pilots is
driven by a well known cohort inside the AFAP. Apparently they have lobbied sufficient committee members, but do not necessarily have the full support of AFAP Exec or President. I believe the less "centralised" structure of AFAP that allows the various sub committees more independence has led to this embarrassing
and devisive application.

Sadly, but not surprisingly true to form.
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 08:47
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 47
Management and the IR department are probably masturbating over this thread about pilot disunity right now.
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 10:57
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 135
So Tuner you have no idea at all but will comment nonetheless??Lead Sled, could you name one person in any management position ( elected or otherwise ) that was there 30 years ago?? You have also forgotten about the disdain that the OB had for non airline operations and the fact that their money was being used to support such, nothing has changed there in 37 years.Megan, the last time I heard that story it was the Hells Angels being sent around to fix the problem. Jetlike you have hit the nail on the head. Where are the red ties?? Oh and while I am at it one of you informed chaps might like to refresh my memory on where VIPA had their first office??

Last edited by Don Diego; 7th Apr 2018 at 11:49.
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 13:42
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
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Why? How many Qantas group pilots do they think want to jump to the AFAP? I don’t. And I’ve not heard anybody I’ve worked with, ever, express any interest in the AFAP.
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Old 8th Apr 2018, 04:05
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Megan, the last time I heard that story it was the Hells Angels being sent around to fix the problem
So, you're saying it happened on more than one occasion then? Norm Gallagher in our case, while at dinner with AFAP in a provincial town. Thanks for confirming it was their modus operandi at the time, early 80's.
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Old 8th Apr 2018, 06:22
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Originally Posted by SandyPalms View Post
Why? How many Qantas group pilots do they think want to jump to the AFAP? I don’t. And I’ve not heard anybody I’ve worked with, ever, express any interest in the AFAP.
This in spades.

Also I don't thinks there's any widespread disgruntlement with aipa. Not pretending they're perfect but I wouldn't even consider window shopping around at this point.

And, aside from mention here and there, I don't really have any idea whom AFAP are nor why I'd be interested in them.

Moving on
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Old 8th Apr 2018, 08:12
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Australia
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No Megan I am saying it is utter bulls%it that has been made up.
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Old 8th Apr 2018, 09:54
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 149
While ever there is an organisation called the Australian Federation of Airline Pilots and while ever there is an organisation called the Australian and International Pilots Association, there will always be two pilot unions (at a minimum) in Australia.
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