Perth to London

[maggot]

Originally Posted by Roj approved

Keg,
The 787's are good on fuel, but there is no way 8T is ever going to be more than 120mins of fuel.

But, its good to see they can get there with 60 holding plus reserves if the have favourable winds.

in reality, the PER-LHR is not as fuel critical in the final stages as the LHR-PER will be. Lots of options in Europe, approaching PER, not so much. without a big tailwind, 8T won't get you to ADL

Southbound is the short one

[Keg]

Just looked at today's plan for MEL-PER. 8T is 120 minutes. Thought it may have been more but there you go.

When I looked at the LHR- PER sector a few days back they were carrying a full load of 230+ pax and arriving in PER with about 5.5T. They still had a few ton below MTOW so could probably have put a bit more gas in it. Still, 8T over the top of PER doesn't give you too many funk holes if there are TS around. At least there's normally not much chance of FG in PER in the middle of the arvo!

[stormfury]

Originally Posted by Ushuaia

Oh that's right, just get the duty limit changed:

https://www.smh.com.au/business/comp...27-p4z6l2.html

"Mr Joyce also said aviation regulators would have to change rules restricting how long pilots can fly for the long-haul routes to work."

Or he could look at how they’re crewed and recruit-train-retain the right mix of multiple crews within the current duty limits. Oh hang on, that would cost more and would probably eat into his bonus.

[Roj approved]

Thanks Maggot,

I am aware southbound, LHR-PER is shorter, but the list of suitable alternates in the Indian Ocean is a lot shorter too, if you are chasing the Westerly they will be south of Sri Lanka, 180 mins from Jakarta then its Port Headland and PER. Then even if you have 10T-12T on arrival PER, You won't make ADL, and really, who wants to go to Learmonth or Kalgoorlie?

Ushuaia,
PER-LHR, sure, duty time will be restrictive, but i'd rather be in a hotel in Frankfurt/Rome/ than the airport terminal at Learmonth/Kalgoorlie/Port Headland and running out of duty.

[LeadSled]

Folks,
Re. fuel remaining overhead EGLL of 8+, what's the problem, that would probably get you to EGKK or EGSS as a full alternate with the B787, based on my B767 time.
Arriving over EGLL with less than 10 in a B747-400 is not unknown, and with an alternate criteria of around 400/1600 (for many airlines even less) it can be quite inclement weather before an alternate in required, but that all depends on your UK CAA Ops. Spec. for your operation.
Contrary to "popular belief" not all airlines carry alternates for all flights, even in Europe.
Tootle pip!!

[rjtjrt]

Is Cocos Island a plannable/useable enroute diversion?

[BuzzBox]

I appreciate you wouldn't want to go there, but are you QF guys/gals able to plan Learmonth if Perth needs an alternate at the planning stage? We're not allowed to plan Learmonth, but we can use it if we run out of options after we launch (eg unforecast fog).

[maggot]

Originally Posted by Roj approved

Thanks Maggot,

I am aware southbound, LHR-PER is shorter, but the list of suitable alternates in the Indian Ocean is a lot shorter too, if you are chasing the Westerly they will be south of Sri Lanka, 180 mins from Jakarta then its Port Headland and PER. Then even if you have 10T-12T on arrival PER, You won't make ADL, and really, who wants to go to Learmonth or Kalgoorlie?

Ushuaia,
PER-LHR, sure, duty time will be restrictive, but i'd rather be in a hotel in Frankfurt/Rome/ than the airport terminal at Learmonth/Kalgoorlie/Port Headland and running out of duty.

Yep, well south
And yep they probably won't be carrying any alternates, just a standard qf DPA.
As keg said, not too much of a fog risk at 2pm, maybe occasionally TS and they can eek out a tempo for that no problem.
How's cundernin looking LOL

[Keg]

Yep. We can plan Learmonth as an alternate and/or use it for ETOPS and all DP points.

[BuzzBox]

Thanks Keg - we can't plan to use it as a destination alternate or ETOPS ERA due to the lack of RFF.

[ExtraShot]

I am aware southbound, LHR-PER is shorter, but the list of suitable alternates in the Indian Ocean is a lot shorter too, if you are chasing the Westerly they will be south of Sri Lanka, 180 mins from Jakarta then its Port Headland and PER. Then even if you have 10T-12T on arrival PER, You won't make ADL, and really, who wants to go to Learmonth or Kalgoorlie?

Ushuaia,
PER-LHR, sure, duty time will be restrictive, but i'd rather be in a hotel in Frankfurt/Rome/ than the airport terminal at Learmonth/Kalgoorlie/Port Headland and running out of duty.

Add in Karratha to that list also...

It’s unlikely hotels would be needed, other than in exceptional circumstances.

Barring other delays out of the departure end, there should be plenty of duty remaining for a gas and go stop if needed, all those ports should be capable of it at that time of day. There should also be standby crew in Perth to pax one of the many qanta... erm network a320 services to pick it up should that be needed. Or have one of those idle a320s come and get the passengers. (Not ideal but not a game changer-stopper).

Adelaide fuel is something like 14t overhead Perth, btw.

[SIUYA]

Or have one of those idle a320s come and get the passengers. (Not ideal but not a game changer-stopper).

Really?

How's that going to work with a 787-load of passengers, not to mention the usual customs and immigration crap they'd all need to go through before QF or whoever tried to get them all on board [quote] one of those idle a320s

FFS

A 9 out of 10 effort for the exploding Havana Cigar award on that one ES.

[ExtraShot]

[quote=SIUYA;10100612]Really?

How's that going to work with a 787-load of passengers, not to mention the usual customs and immigration crap they'd all need to go through before QF or whoever tried to get them all on board

one of those idle a320s

FFS

A 9 out of 10 effort for the exploding Havana Cigar award on that one ES.

So send two... there’s gonna be, what, 12 of them?!

Urgh, what’s the point. It was tongue in cheek mate. Enjoy your exploding cigar smartarse.

[AerialPerspective]

Originally Posted by Capt Fathom

Jet A1. Same as when they left!

Hehe... very good... like the alleged story of the old lady in Melbourne asking a tramways employee "Sonny, how long will the next tram be please???"

"Sixty-three feet madam"

[missy]

Concerns were raised by passengers off the first 17-hour flights last weekend around comfort levels – especially in economy. Comments have led Joyce to say that the company is hunting for “out-there ideas” to “really change air travel for the future”.

Qantas had a choice for a 2/4/2 configuration but chose 3/3/3. Everybody knows 2/4/2 is better as you are only one seat from a (wider) aisle.

[wiggy]

Re. fuel remaining overhead EGLL of 8+, what's the problem, that would probably get you to EGKK or EGSS as a full alternate with the B787, based on my B767 time.

Agreed, not sure why 8T is remarkable. We (local T7 operator) regularly plan on landing at EGLL with under 7 tonnes...that gives the option of EGKK from the go around, getting there with 30 min reserve...8T overhead LAM (the north east LHR hold) would give EGKK and EGSS as options.

[Dee Vee]

Originally Posted by missy

Qantas had a choice for a 2/4/2 configuration but chose 3/3/3. Everybody knows 2/4/2 is better as you are only one seat from a (wider) aisle.

Passengers would prefer wider seats, than wider aisles, obviously Qantas prefers sardines.

[Popgun]

Champagne taste / Beer budget

Originally Posted by Dee Vee

Passengers would prefer wider seats, than wider aisles, obviously Qantas prefers sardines.

Of course passengers prefer wider seats. But are they prepared to PAY EXTRA for more space?

In economy, it would probably seem that MOST passengers are not.

PG

[73to91]

Passengers would prefer wider seats, than wider aisles, obviously Qantas prefers sardines.

Well here is a review:
https://www.australianfrequentflyer....conomy-review/

The major criticism is the Economy seat. The seats are simply not wide enough for an average-sized adult to sit comfortably for 17 hours.

The seat is too narrow. Whilst I am tall, I am not particularly large. I was sitting next to someone who was also not ‘oversized’. We could not sit flat against the seat back side by side as our shoulders wanted to fill the same space. I spent the entire flight sitting at a slight angle so I wasn’t leaning into the aisle. Speaking of the aisle, I was bumped continuously during the flight, even though I was within the confines of my seat.

With 32 inches of seat pitch, the Qantas Dreamliner Economy seats do have more legroom than most Economy seats. But they’re also narrower than most Economy seats at just 17 inches wide. It’s true that most operators of the Dreamliner have opted for the same configuration with 9 seats per row instead of 8. (Japan Airlines is a notable exception.) But most airlines are not using these planes to fly non-stop from Australia to Europe.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

I reckon I'm about average, and I'm just over 18 inches from outside shoulder to outside shoulder. With nowhere to go side to side, me in a middle seat is going to be force me on either side of me to lean slightly to the window side and aisle side to avoid touching me. Doesn't sound too comfy for 17 hours (except for me in the middle ). If either of the me's on the outside refuses to budge, then the other me's are going to be really uncomfy.