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Old 30th Mar 2018, 02:23
  #181 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Brisbane
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Champagne taste / Beer budget

Originally Posted by Dee Vee View Post
Passengers would prefer wider seats, than wider aisles, obviously Qantas prefers sardines.
Of course passengers prefer wider seats. But are they prepared to PAY EXTRA for more space?

In economy, it would probably seem that MOST passengers are not.

PG
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Old 30th Mar 2018, 22:29
  #182 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Passengers would prefer wider seats, than wider aisles, obviously Qantas prefers sardines.
Well here is a review:
https://www.australianfrequentflyer....conomy-review/

The major criticism is the Economy seat. The seats are simply not wide enough for an average-sized adult to sit comfortably for 17 hours.

The seat is too narrow. Whilst I am tall, I am not particularly large. I was sitting next to someone who was also not ‘oversized’. We could not sit flat against the seat back side by side as our shoulders wanted to fill the same space. I spent the entire flight sitting at a slight angle so I wasn’t leaning into the aisle. Speaking of the aisle, I was bumped continuously during the flight, even though I was within the confines of my seat.

With 32 inches of seat pitch, the Qantas Dreamliner Economy seats do have more legroom than most Economy seats. But they’re also narrower than most Economy seats at just 17 inches wide. It’s true that most operators of the Dreamliner have opted for the same configuration with 9 seats per row instead of 8. (Japan Airlines is a notable exception.) But most airlines are not using these planes to fly non-stop from Australia to Europe.
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Old 30th Mar 2018, 23:25
  #183 (permalink)  
 
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Location: QLD - where drivers are yet to realise that the left lane goes to their destination too.
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I reckon I'm about average, and I'm just over 18 inches from outside shoulder to outside shoulder. With nowhere to go side to side, me in a middle seat is going to be force me on either side of me to lean slightly to the window side and aisle side to avoid touching me. Doesn't sound too comfy for 17 hours (except for me in the middle ). If either of the me's on the outside refuses to budge, then the other me's are going to be really uncomfy.
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Old 31st Mar 2018, 00:39
  #184 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Canberra
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Originally Posted by 73to91 View Post
I am sorry Qantas, but the seat on the 787 is too narrow. You have made a mistake going 9 across. You would have been better off having them wider (8 across) so losing a column of 20 seats but closer together (pitch) and gaining a row of 8. So a net loss of 12 seats for a much better ride.

I flew the A380 the day before with greater width and smaller pitch. It was much more comfortable.

I won’t be flying QF longhaul Y in a 787 again. I am actually not looking forward to my MEL-PER flight next month. (But I do have the F lounge to help!) And I wouldn’t recommend anyone else does, either.
I'm certainly not big, I would consider myself average or smaller, and I just measured myself arm to arm (which is actually wider than shoulder to shoulder), and I haven't found a way to remove my arms when I try and sit in an aircraft seat just yet.

20" arm to arm.

These economy seats are a major fail, I can see many arguments about armrests coming up!
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Old 31st Mar 2018, 01:23
  #185 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Sydney
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I’ve got an idea to keep the whiners happy about not enough room in economy class.

Why don’t we just convert the aircraft to business class only? Say 80 seats? Plenty of room for everyone. Even a special nook for storing your best going out thongs. Then charge the standard economy fare for each seat. Every flight would be booked solid. Unfortunately the airline would be broke inside six months but that’s ok. Well just go to the next airline that gives us unsustainable room for our economy ticket.

Wake up you fu(king morons!

The aeroplane is 9 abreast in economy for a reason. BECAUSE THATS ALL YOU ARE PREPARED TO PAY FOR!

There’s an option if you’re not happy. It’s called premium economy.

Like it or not the main driver for economy passengers is price. When Dazza and Shazza book their tickets the first thing they look at is the cost of the ticket. Once they’ve decided on the airline, based purely on cost, they then they whinge that they’re not served caviar and Veuve Clicquot on boarding.

The airline must make a profit. If it doesn’t it won’t be around for long. To make a profit a certain number of bums must be in seats. Charge too much, because you have 8 abreast seating in economy, and that the only way you can make a profit, then Dazza and Shazza will just fly with someone else. That someone else is likely to have 9 abreast seating. Guess what? They’ll still whinge about their seat being to small.

Seriously, some people should just stick to the bus.
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Old 31st Mar 2018, 01:27
  #186 (permalink)  
601
 
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he WILL be Minister for Transport,
Aiming a bit low? That would assume that Shorten is still there. Only way Albo will make a Minister again will be as Leader and then he will be PM.

And that is about as firm as 2/4/2 seating coming to your local QF B787.

Wake up you fu(king morons!
With an attitude like that it is little wonder that I have not flown Qantas international since 1980.
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Old 31st Mar 2018, 01:33
  #187 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Canberra
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Originally Posted by IsDon View Post
There’s an option if you’re not happy. It’s called premium economy.
There are many options, including SIA or EK with up to 19 inches in economy and WIFI too!
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Old 31st Mar 2018, 01:49
  #188 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Tent
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Originally Posted by IsDon View Post
I’ve got an idea to keep the whiners happy about not enough room in economy class.

Why don’t we just convert the aircraft to business class only? Say 80 seats? Plenty of room for everyone. Even a special nook for storing your best going out thongs. Then charge the standard economy fare for each seat. Every flight would be booked solid. Unfortunately the airline would be broke inside six months but that’s ok. Well just go to the next airline that gives us unsustainable room for our economy ticket.

Wake up you fu(king morons!

The aeroplane is 9 abreast in economy for a reason. BECAUSE THATS ALL YOU ARE PREPARED TO PAY FOR!

There’s an option if you’re not happy. It’s called premium economy.

Like it or not the main driver for economy passengers is price. When Dazza and Shazza book their tickets the first thing they look at is the cost of the ticket. Once they’ve decided on the airline, based purely on cost, they then they whinge that they’re not served caviar and Veuve Clicquot on boarding.

The airline must make a profit. If it doesn’t it won’t be around for long. To make a profit a certain number of bums must be in seats. Charge too much, because you have 8 abreast seating in economy, and that the only way you can make a profit, then Dazza and Shazza will just fly with someone else. That someone else is likely to have 9 abreast seating. Guess what? They’ll still whinge about their seat being to small.

Seriously, some people should just stick to the bus.

Dazza and Shazza based on your model would pay $1,181 for a flight with Emirates not the flight with Qantas for $1342.


On a 777 (one sector) and A380.
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Old 31st Mar 2018, 01:56
  #189 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
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Originally Posted by Bend alot View Post
Dazza and Shazza based on your model would pay $1,181 for a flight with Emirates.
or even less. Given Qantas seem to have taken the Jetstar seating and feature options for their B787's, they might be pushing the proverbial up hill

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Old 31st Mar 2018, 02:00
  #190 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: BNE, Australia
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EK 777s have 10-abreast making them just as bad as the 787 Y-seat width. Except as I recall the pitch is less than that of Qantas to boot. EY is no better.

SQ is obviously the one to beat for economy comfort and it shows, their product is so good they have shot themselves in the foot because half their fleet is specced with a Premium Economy cabin that they struggle to fill, no one is willing to pay the asking price so what do you do? Discount the seats and give your economy pricing the appearance of being overpriced in comparison?

SQs 787 has 9-across in Y as well by the way. And it will be the aircraft flying punters from Perth in competition with QF.

I did read a rumour that AJ contemplated fitting 8-across in Y, but it was shelved because it would have made the 789 uncompetitive on the other routes it will fly.

Never forget the pax with champagne tastes and champagne budgets are drinking said champagne in the pointy end! Look after them first. 95% of the ones in Y will pick another airline next time unless you are the cheapest option again.
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Old 31st Mar 2018, 02:04
  #191 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
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or even less. Given Qantas seem to have taken the Jetstar seating and feature options for their B787's, they might be pushing the proverbial up hill
Qantas have created a great deal of own brand damage. Studies suggest over $1 billion of lost value when considering the grounding, lockout and trash talking. Combined with the abandonment of European flying, probably a conservative number. . Kind of silly really.

Notwithstanding intentions, the problem for Low Far Airlines is they catch themselves in the 'price paradox': They can stimulate demand with 'market leading prices'. The problem is that all they capture are demand elastic travellers. (travellers who pick the best price of the day, no loyalty other than price) In fact their whole model weakness is demand elasticity. They struggle to build a value premium, which in turn builds yield. It is brand value that ensures sales can capture this price premium.

Having lost nearly 400,000 passengers from their own aircraft in the First year of the EK alliance and gutting their International netowrk (as well as the damage to brand), outside the home market Qantas finds it difficult to build that yield premium: There are simply too many other brands with value, with fuel efficient fleets that Qantas clearly lacks, their CASK is much lower across a stage length. This gives them a significant advantage diluting quickly any yield premium Qantas once commanded. Fuel costs are a big part of the problem. Lacking the fleet the prime problem.

Qantas has effectively stifled itself in poor strategic modelling, woeful execution and an internal obsession with fulfilling the CEO and Chairman's goals. Dominating unions, suppressing market forces with respect to labour unit cost has the focus internal. There is little outward looking strategy and when they have, they are confronted with competitors that moved on a long time ago.
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Old 31st Mar 2018, 02:06
  #192 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
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Originally Posted by chuboy View Post
EK 777s have 10-abreast making them just as bad as the 787 Y-seat width.
Many people would choose an EK A380 flight and get the 19" seat width (and WIFI), e.g. EK421/EK29/EK1 etc.
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Old 31st Mar 2018, 02:24
  #193 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Sydney
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Thank you everyone for proving my point so convincingly. Price, and only price, is the driver for economy class.

Why not all roll the dice and fly Garuda, or Korean, may not make it, but at least it was cheap.
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Old 31st Mar 2018, 02:34
  #194 (permalink)  
 
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Garuda, or Korean? You may be shocked how really good they are in 2018.
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Old 31st Mar 2018, 02:37
  #195 (permalink)  
 
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Why not all roll the dice and fly Garuda, or Korean, may not make it, but at least it was cheap.
Don, do agree with your point, but you may be surpised how much the industry moved on whilst Qantas went to war with itself (staff)

The problem with Qantas is very much self induced.
The modern airline 'manager' comes from a very broad discipline of 'management'. To make these MBA style course widely accepted, the underlying tone, driven to a degree by the prevalence of accounting subjects is that COST is the one thing that management can easily focus on. So in they come, with the MBA and drive cost down, it is easily identifiable, oftentimes is human (labour) and for managers without real industry insight it becomes a norm; find a cost, reduce it. For what it is worth, we suspect that Qantas is readying itself for the next proxy war with staff; pilots.

The Low Fare Airline really was the accountant driven business. Forgive me if I am wrong but haven't all JQ CEO's been accountants?

The consumer bombarded with the same messages on price, expects (from a consumer point of view) the same 'value' at lesser price. We all demand cheap Chinese goods then complain when there are no real jobs left! ( I digress)

The problem with this is logically it cannot proceed below a given level (fixed cost) so by the time the 'management' re-orientate to growing revenue again (value) it is often too late.

This is the modern corporate cycle. Airlines with their high fixed cost are not necessarily well suited to this approach. Sadly though the 'management' class all read the same textbook.

Real good airline management keeps control of unit costs but equally focuses on driving revenue growth and building a brand value.
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Old 31st Mar 2018, 03:02
  #196 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
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If you look at those prices posted I would probably take the second one.


The first was a glance at the prices down to about 8th.
Then was a look at airlines - that scrubbed a few.
Then it was flight duration.


I would then look into probably next aircraft type - A380 wins every time, then I rather a Boeing 747 followed by a 777.


Flight arrival and departure times do have an influence.


Any required stopover in Singapore would be a plus.
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Old 31st Mar 2018, 04:31
  #197 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
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I just did a check for my next block of days off Perth to London 20-30 April (was and are flexible).


Singapore Airlines won.


Depart 22 April [Sun] at 14:05 on a B777 (nice time) arrive SIN 19:35 with about a 4 hour break. A bit of a stretch see what's on show in the terminals and beer in the Cactus Bar maybe a snack.


Board the A380 for London at 23.30 after a round of snacks and a beer or two, there is a chance of some sleep on this craft and the airline economy standard. Arrive London at a reasonable 6:00 in the morning [Mon].


Now for the return - Depart 22:05 on the 30th [Mon] on the A380 again after a snack and a couple of drinks there is a chance of some sleep early on when it is dark. You will arrive at SIN at 16:10 on the 1st of May [Tue], I chose the longest layover that was actually the cheapest (free) but would have anyway. This is a 13 and a half hour layover in Singapore.


I booked a $139 room at the Transit Hotel in T2 for 12 hrs inc breakfast.


So on arrival at Singapore it will be to check-in and grab a shower and change of clothes. Then a beer around the pool and go get a meal at one of the many outlets. Depending on how the previous flight went I can decide on getting 6 to a good 10 hors of sleep in the room.


Get up have breakfast (included) and head off for boarding the 777 for a 7:40 departure 2nd May [Wed] arriving about lunch time the same day in Perth.


Cost $1,163.73 + $139 room


Pretty sure I could pay for the beers in Singapore with the savings from the direct flight cost & turn up for work on Thursday.
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Old 31st Mar 2018, 05:08
  #198 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
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Of course PER LHR isn’t for everyone and of course there are plenty of options. Qantas only needs a few hundred per day, not the whole Australia Europe market.

Have a great trip
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Old 31st Mar 2018, 05:27
  #199 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Oz
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Most comfortable economy class to London would be SIA A380 upper deck. There is a small economy cabin located at the rear of the business cabin which is very quiet.

Not much further behind would be the Qatar or Etihad A380s all the way through. Product is brilliant and service mostly top notch.

I have not flown Qantas internationally in 30 years and have no intention of doing so. If they bring their A380s up to QR/EY standard then I’ll give them a run.
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Old 31st Mar 2018, 07:42
  #200 (permalink)  
 
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I see IsDon has displayed his compassionate and considerate concern for his customers again. I bet I know which seats the crew rest won't be.
From the Qantas web site:
The experience:
Providing optimal comfort and space for every passenger is at the core of the Qantas Dreamliner design which features 236 seats - less than most other aircraft of its type.

The aircraft is fitted with state-of-the-art technology to reduce turbulence, improve noise quality and reduced aircraft vibrations for a smoother flight. Every seat has been designed to offer the ultimate comfort for long-haul flyers.
My bolding.
Actually, apart from a slightly longer pitch, they've done SFA about and just jammed the standard 9 abreast in. However, they've marketed that they've revolutionized LH travel with the "game-changer". You may as well fly Jetstar, but you are paying more for the QF experience. Even Vietnam Airlines Y seats are 18" wide in their 789's.
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