Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific
Reload this Page >

Dick Smith initiated change to the Civil Aviation Act....

Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Dick Smith initiated change to the Civil Aviation Act....

Old 7th Apr 2018, 01:08
  #101 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 4,955
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
That concept was never intended for trivial regulation infringements and is entirely out of place in that context. JMO.
TFX,
How true, but successive governments have never bothered to enforce their own legislative guidelines.
Tootle pip!!
LeadSled is offline  
Old 7th Apr 2018, 09:30
  #102 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Victoria Australia
Age: 82
Posts: 299
Received 76 Likes on 35 Posts
Originally Posted by LeadSled
TFX,
How true, but successive governments have never bothered to enforce their own legislative guidelines.
Tootle pip!!
I recall Mr Carmody making reference to the issue of strict liability being inappropriate, but obviously its low on priority. Repeating a point, CASA has strong disincentives to make changes that could put GA on a growth path. Loss of fees for all sorts of permissions that don’t exist in the USA for one example. Less power to micro manage by CASA would eventually lead to lower staffing and possibly lower salaries within CASA. Any logical changes might lead to cessation of the everlasting (30 yr so far and still counting) make work program of rule rewriting, a system of great wealth creation which CASA would be loathe to give up. The hubristic egos of the Iron Ring would be assaulted by any winding back of the worst and most unworkable aviation rules in the developed world, one more obstacle in the way of commonsense and practical reform that is desperately needed.
Sandy Reith is offline  
Old 7th Apr 2018, 09:40
  #103 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Australia/India
Posts: 5,274
Received 411 Likes on 203 Posts
Wren: I’m not “pointing the finger” at anyone or expecting Dick to do anything. My point is that if Dick wants to achieve change, there’s a way that is more likely to work than the ones to which he is choosing to devote his energy. If he’s going to choose to devote any energy to achieving outcomes through interactions with politicians, here’s what he should do:

1. Ignore what they say. The only measure of progress is outcomes.

2. Be specific about what outcome you want. In the case of amendments to the Civil Aviation Act, Dick gets a tick against 2.

3. Tell all politicians, or at least the parliamentary members of the major parties, that you will run a public campaign to get them all tossed out, until the outcome you want has been implemented. Politics is about obtaining and retaining power, so if you pose a credible threat to someone who is in a comfy position of power, or to someone who has a sniff of a possibility to get into that position, you will have their attention. (This is where Dick has unique power.)

4. Constantly remind yourself of rule 1.

5. Constantly remind yourself that achieving the outcome has nothing to do with the merits of the issue. That will help you to comply with Rule 1 and understand Rule 3.
Lead Balloon is offline  
Old 8th Apr 2018, 00:34
  #104 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Victoria Australia
Age: 82
Posts: 299
Received 76 Likes on 35 Posts
L Balloon regarding your advice to Dick Smith and your opinion that he has unique power and the inference that he could cause a number of MPs to lose their seats. I don’t see this as realistic when one considers the huge effort by thousands of political party personnel and millions of dollars that go make up a general election. This is a competition that drowns out all but the main issues of welfare money and the maintenance of average lifestyles.
The surest way to get reform for GA is by GA people to engage with their MPs and get political parties together agreeing to policy change. Dick Smith looked to have a fundamental change, agreed surprisingly by both sides, to the CA Act in the bag, a great effort which I’m sure did not come overnight or without considerable effort (unpaid). Too bad BJ took a tumble but maybe the new Minister might carry that forward.
We can can write, ring, email and meet our MPs and exhort them to push that legislative action.
Sandy Reith is offline  
Old 8th Apr 2018, 04:01
  #105 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 4,599
Likes: 0
Received 65 Likes on 26 Posts
Unbelievably bad news for our industry! !

I had a phone call with the Deputy PM Michael McCormack a few days ago. From what I could read into the phone call he will not be supporting the change in the act that is so fundamental for the future of our industry. I think we have another John Anderson- nice bloke but he will take his $400K+ salary each year and make sure he can never be held accountable for anything!

Just like Darren Chester he is a trained journalist so he knows that the media will beat up anything that attempts to tell the truth about aviation safety and cost. His training will be “leave the status quo- and you can never be held responsible”.

I suppose the only hope is a change of government with Mr Albanese then changing the act. He has told me he will do this.

Then again Lead will point out that I should not believe such a claim. So where should we go from here?

In the meantime. Get out of General Aviation in Australia before you lose everything

Last edited by Dick Smith; 8th Apr 2018 at 04:30.
Dick Smith is online now  
Old 8th Apr 2018, 06:03
  #106 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Victoria Australia
Age: 82
Posts: 299
Received 76 Likes on 35 Posts
Bad news from Dick Smith

Not happy Jan.
It would be easy enough to slip into Lead Balloon’s incipient despair but to hell with that we will redouble effort.
The political cycle is on our side, the balance is finely weighted between the main parties. This dynamic is able to be shaped and directed if we take the issues directly to our MPs and cite the coming avalanche of criticism in publicity.
The Australian has run many articles in the last few months which run towards our reform requirements, this is the other driver to be exploited, to make one Minister irrelevant and to be overtaken by the political imperatives of severe critiques by publicity.
Might too hopeful but it is possible by motivating the GA community.
Sandy Reith is offline  
Old 8th Apr 2018, 22:48
  #107 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 4,599
Likes: 0
Received 65 Likes on 26 Posts
“You cannot rush policy outcomes, especially when it involves people’s safety. If changes are possible, they will be properly considered and broad consultation will be held before any decision is made.”
So goes a quote from an article in The Australian this morning. See here.

This statement is clearly "John Anderson speak" for doing nothing. It worked for John Anderson for over 6˝ years – he was one of our longest serving aviation Ministers ever and managed to stay there without making any material change that would assist the industry by using such statements.

Of course, what is left out of the article is that the present Act is a lie. The most important consideration is not safety in many cases when CASA is dealing with powerful airlines. They only use the Act when it is to destroy the weaker general aviation industry.

I despair.
Dick Smith is online now  
Old 8th Apr 2018, 23:39
  #108 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Victoria Australia
Age: 82
Posts: 299
Received 76 Likes on 35 Posts
Originally Posted by Dick Smith
So goes a quote from an article in The Australian this morning. See here.

This statement is clearly "John Anderson speak" for doing nothing. It worked for John Anderson for over 6˝ years – he was one of our longest serving aviation Ministers ever and managed to stay there without making any material change that would assist the industry by using such statements.

Of course, what is left out of the article is that the present Act is a lie. The most important consideration is not safety in many cases when CASA is dealing with powerful airlines. They only use the Act when it is to destroy the weaker general aviation industry.

I despair.
It’s pretty sad but we have to keep on, its a duty. Get a few hundred GA people to Can’tberra as is the plan of the AGAA group will give us valuable publicity. The 30 bad news polls can be good news because sooner or later the penny will drop, both major parties will be scrounging for every vote.
We can help them.
Sandy Reith is offline  
Old 9th Apr 2018, 00:56
  #109 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 4,599
Likes: 0
Received 65 Likes on 26 Posts
“I don’t think that you should ever regard aviation safety as what is affordable. Safety is something which has the highest priority – it is not a question of cost.”

John Anderson, Australia’s longest serving transport Minister, in the Namoi Valley Independent newspaper, Thursday 5 October 2000.
So here we have a Deputy Prime Minister basically stating a lie and getting away with it.

Have a look at Mr Anderson’s Wikipedia entry.

It raves on about what a fantastic Deputy Prime Minister he was and how he was praised when he eventually retired. There is not one mention in the entry of him actually doing anything for the aviation side of the Transport portfolio.

As we know, he propagated these “lies” that you don’t need to have affordable aviation regulations. He got away with that and by the look of it, the next Minister has been advised (by bureaucrats earning $600,000 or $700,000 per year) to do the same thing.

It is almost as if our democracy is not working any more.
Dick Smith is online now  
Old 9th Apr 2018, 02:30
  #110 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Victoria Australia
Age: 82
Posts: 299
Received 76 Likes on 35 Posts
Democracy not working for GA

Originally Posted by Dick Smith
So here we have a Deputy Prime Minister basically stating a lie and getting away with it.

Have a look at Mr Anderson’s Wikipedia entry.

It raves on about what a fantastic Deputy Prime Minister he was and how he was praised when he eventually retired. There is not one mention in the entry of him actually doing anything for the aviation side of the Transport portfolio.

As we know, he propagated these “lies” that you don’t need to have affordable aviation regulations. He got away with that and by the look of it, the next Minister has been advised (by bureaucrats earning $600,000 or $700,000 per year) to do the same thing.

It is almost as if our democracy is not working any more.
By degrees and by definition it is not working as it should because Ministers have been giving up their responsibilities by creating independent Commonwealth corporations to govern in their stead. The great ‘independent umpire’ idea so fancied by politicians and it seems the sports loving populace.
It is also a much beloved and coveted prize for a bureaucracy moving out of the more salary restricted mainstream Public Service into the wider Pubilic Sector and where ‘commercial corporate’ rates of pay are the norm.
When CASA was set loose from direct Ministerial control, some thirty years ago, none of us foresaw the looming disaster, death by a thousand cuts for GA.
As for John Anderson, dishing up the notion that affordability has no place regarding safety was always mindless and completely illogical. That the notion was made into law shows how, for all our supposed educated sophistication, our democracy is far from perfect and the old saying “eternal vigilance,” to keep our freedoms, remains just as true as anytime in the past.
Inroads into our freedom of speech have occurred and the whole apparatus of government has become extremely top heavy thanks in no small part to the handout mentality. In consequence there’s as many voting for a living as working for same making it very difficult for governments to move.
GA has got a battle on it’s hands.
Sandy Reith is offline  
Old 9th Apr 2018, 07:49
  #111 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Sydney
Posts: 429
Received 20 Likes on 6 Posts
1. A regulation rewrite by a government body that has taken decades longer than anticipated and is still ongoing (and NZ who did similar achieved and implemented decades faster). At what cost? To achieve not a simpler system but a more arcane one.

2. An aviation industry that is struggling to survive. Closures of maintenance, charter and training organisations across the country. Loss of facilities, skills, corporate knowledge. Loss of public benefit that having a viable GA industry provides.

3. A shortage of pilots in the airlines. Australian flying schools disappearing and talk of having to get overseas pilots to fill vacancies because we are not able to train our own. We used to train not just our own pilots but large numbers of overseas pilots.

4. Regional aviation industries, jobs and services disappearing. Higher costs to regional residents for transport and closures of local business and loss of employers.

5. The body responsible for overseeing the industry keeps growing larger and is imposing more and more onerous restrictions on the industry and there is much doubt within the industry about the actual safety value of those restrictions.

6. Huge antipathy and distrust between the regulatory body and the industry it serves.

7. An industry in crisis that wants a regulatory body that includes in its charter some responsibility for assisting maintain the viability of the industry it serves instead of its current narrow focus on imposing regulation without any need to consider the practical impact of those regulations on the viability of the industry.

8. An industry whose health and viability depends on maintaining a high level of safety but that feels it is having onerous and often poorly thought out regulations imposed on it that are not so much about practical safety outcomes as the appearance and ease of enforcement by the regulator.

9. Governments over decades that have washed their hands and allowed the regulator to continue to act without regard for the viability of the industry because they are too scared to make decisions that may impact safety (or the perception of safety).

10 Handing over of commonwealth aviation assets that have served a vital role in the aviation industry (and its benefit to the community) to private hands who then develop and those assets to maximise their profits in ways that reduce or remove aviation from the facility.

Surely this would make for a great 4 corners program. Particularly close to an election.
jonkster is offline  
Old 9th Apr 2018, 08:21
  #112 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Victoria Australia
Age: 82
Posts: 299
Received 76 Likes on 35 Posts
Election material to encourage reform

Jonkster that is on the money, the main ills of the current trajectory and the way forward. Material for the media and any venue that gives us a platform.
I think one important ingredient in the debate is a new attitude towards the whole mechanism of government control over our freedoms.
We used to accept by acquiescence that government, ie the Crown, gave us privileges to fly. This is rubbish. We have a right to fly and the ‘privilege’ idea out of the medieval concept of the Monarch holding all rights, to be dispensed as Royal favour, must be discarded.
We accept simple rules for flight in the same way as we all accept the road rules. Those rules might be more complex than road rules but the principle is the same.
In the past we accepted all sorts of restrictions and costly procedures, which are now far worse, but commonsense and some liberal reading of the rules allowed GA to thrive.
Not so today and this must change.
Sandy Reith is offline  
Old 9th Apr 2018, 12:00
  #113 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Australia/India
Posts: 5,274
Received 411 Likes on 203 Posts
Originally Posted by wren 460
...The surest way to get reform for GA is by GA people to engage with their MPs and get political parties together agreeing to policy change.
I wish that were true but, alas, it’s demonstrably naive.
Dick Smith looked to have a fundamental change, agreed surprisingly by both sides, to the CA Act in the bag, a great effort which I’m sure did not come overnight or without considerable effort (unpaid). Too bad BJ took a tumble but maybe the new Minister might carry that forward.
The new Minister won’t take it forward. There’s nothing in it for the Minister to do so. The bipartisan agreement to fundamental change was balloon juice.
We can can write, ring, email and meet our MPs and exhort them to push that legislative action.
Yep we can.

At least I can say I tried really hard to get the horse to drink.
Lead Balloon is offline  
Old 9th Apr 2018, 18:09
  #114 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Victoria Australia
Age: 82
Posts: 299
Received 76 Likes on 35 Posts
Lead B., the thirst for votes is our major hope. It took more than 40 years to get the Berlin Wall down and no one saw that coming.
Thatcher revolutioned how Britain does business and set that country on a pathway to much greater prosperity, and no one saw that coming.
Unfortunately with privatisation all the rage some bright spark in government thought up Government Business Enterprises (GBEs) and coupled that with ‘user pays.’ Such monopolies, illegal in the real world and enterprising only in the sense of finding new ways of extorting fees from a reeling aviation industry, dropped the GBE title as too pointedly a deceptive ploy.
There’s no alternative but to continue to put the case, the current trajectory is costing the Commonwealth untold $millions in forgone taxation receipts far in excess of the fees gouged out of the declining GA industry. This factor goes to the deficit problem quite apart from the direct disadvantages succinctly put by Jongster, and, not to be overlooked, our freedom to pursue happiness.
Its an obligation, our civic duty, to state a case.
Sandy Reith is offline  
Old 9th Apr 2018, 21:47
  #115 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Australia/India
Posts: 5,274
Received 411 Likes on 203 Posts
There’s no alternative but to continue to put the case.
I agree.

My point is that, in parallel with that demonstrably failed tactic, Dick could focus his energies on the tactic that is most likely to get results. I’ve led him to the water...
Lead Balloon is offline  
Old 9th Apr 2018, 22:55
  #116 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Victoria Australia
Age: 82
Posts: 299
Received 76 Likes on 35 Posts
Failed tactic?

Originally Posted by Lead Balloon
I agree.

My point is that, in parallel with that demonstrably failed tactic, Dick could focus his energies on the tactic that is most likely to get results. I’ve led him to the water...
“Failed tactic?” I think the picture is far more complex, will we ever achieve every ideal and are those ideals shared by all?
The amount of publicity adverse to current aviation policy, especially from the Oz, is many times increased thanks in great measure to the efforts of Dick Smith and many others.
There’s a build up of knowledge within the aviation community, and change of attitude towards such critical areas such as independent instructors and medical requirements. CASA is actually moving to reforms in the AVMED space. Without GA pushing no such movement would be likely.
Its very important to get our philosophies right, to assert our freedom to fly and to change the notion that we have to have micro management by our betters (the “Crown”). We now see that there must be change to the way government administers aviation.
All of this is necessary background to a reset in our own collective attitude to the basics. Part of this is to put aside all sorts of pet theories about the minutiae of flying, to recognise that simple rules work and we rely on proven techniques by experienced people to further and improve aviation in all it’s variations.
True we haven’t yet achieved game changing reform, but the only absolute failure would be giving up the fight.

Last edited by Sandy Reith; 9th Apr 2018 at 22:57. Reason: Typo
Sandy Reith is offline  
Old 10th Apr 2018, 01:45
  #117 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: OZ
Posts: 256
Likes: 0
Received 6 Likes on 1 Post
On this one I agree with the thrust of Dick's strategy. A top-down amendment the Aviation Act is the only avenue that could change CASA from the statute-law-building behemoth it has become. The lawyers in CASA have been steering the ship for a long time and increasingly towards shallow waters. Dick - Better luck with Albo!
Roller Merlin is offline  
Old 10th Apr 2018, 11:09
  #118 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Victoria Australia
Age: 82
Posts: 299
Received 76 Likes on 35 Posts
Roller Merlin, ref Dick Smith getting Albo onside, advice from a former Minister to me is to frame the matter as beyond party politics, not so much by describing the current trajectory, but to show the great prospects for growth if there is real change and reforms for growth. Could be seen as radical in the current Australian context but normal and demonstrably safe and efficient in, for example, the USA.
If possible to find one or two Members from the Nats, Libs and Labor to help. Again pretty much as Dick Smith has had with some success. But now to carry through with more MPs if they can be found. Not easy but entirely possible.
Sandy Reith is offline  
Old 14th Apr 2018, 03:23
  #119 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 4,599
Likes: 0
Received 65 Likes on 26 Posts
I have been told by experts in the Canberra scene that the legislative change could be completed in weeks if the minister wanted the result.

A week or so in legislative drafting and then to the house. It appears such quick change has been made before when both sides are in agreement.

The urgent action is needed because of the dire straights of the training industry. That’s going to effect Airline passengers and growth!
Dick Smith is online now  
Old 19th Apr 2018, 07:41
  #120 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: OZ
Posts: 256
Likes: 0
Received 6 Likes on 1 Post
Wren - I think you are on the money - and this being an election year could be utilised to an advantage - the issue would need a cause to bubble towards the top of an already crowded political agenda, and remain on the table just long enough to be seen as a minor policy advantage point of difference for the Labour Party.

My view is that the public are tired of all nanny state legislation and would view positively the benefits of red tape-ripping in aviation that preserves current levels of safety. Especially with Baggerys Creek/ Melb and Brisbane Airports expansion/ and the QF Academy being current media topics. Some political traction could be gained through the message of this simple legislative change - it may appear is a positive-no-brainer for the public and the shadow minister without eroding opinions over public safety.

Since the next federal election must be called between Aug18 and May19, the timing of any campaign and announcement would be paramount.

Dick - if Albo is on side with this, do you believe there is the political goodwill to make this a minor point of (good) aviation policy difference for the Labour Party going into the next election?

RM
Roller Merlin is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.