Network aircraft to be crewed by JQ pilots

[Lezzeno]

Perhaps just a short term self righteous glow of venting?

Perhaps.

Ultimately that feeling is achieved by venting at the wrong people though

That depends on the source of my frustration. I expect the company to try on what they are after all trying to continuously drive down costs is all they have but I also expect my association to vigorously fight against their efforts to do so in cases such as this that is why I am a member.

The AIPA exec shouldn’t have gone to the IFALPA conference because of the optics of how that looks shortly after the SGM??

I understand the benefits of attendance at such conferences but in this case I think it was inappropriate. As Rated De mentioned, not a good look.

Have you spoken to any of the AIPA exec?

Did they get back to you?

The response was along the lines of

Well your expensive legal representation would need the juice to re-draft the Fair Work Act. Because as it stands, there ain't **** in there that can prevent QF from doing exactly what they have with Network and J Connect.


No point on spending time and money in FWC ("C" for Commission "A" for Act) arguing a losing position.

delivered dripping with the same arrogance

When I suggested their legal opinion was only opinion and therefore not automatically correct and could be argued against I was hit with

Well come on Lez', show us your depth of IR knowledge and strategy, tell us all what should be done?

And what do you achieve not being a member of AIPA?

Looks like about the same as being an AIPA member

What does AFAP or TWU membership achieve in these specific circumstances?

As I mentioned in my previous post I'm not suggesting the AFAP (or TWU) would be any better just comparing AIPA's response to the two different threats

Personally I thought the SGM achieved very little, perhaps some of the pilots experienced a

short term self righteous glow of venting

Still waiting for the lotto numbers

[ExtraShot]

In fairness to AIPA, there has been a press release on the Visa issue, but thanks to the Australian Cricket Team, Easter, and a general apathy in the media at the ongoing abuse of the ‘457 visa program, or whatever it’s called this week’, it’s gone largely unseen.

Again thanks to the Easter break, meetings with sympathetic Ministers and/or Senators are also probably very hard to come by.

Unfortunate timing has struck again, that or excellent timing by Qf again.

[*Lancer*]

Lezz, taking the company to court over issues that are legally unwinnable gets very expensive and achieves nothing. It’s been done before.

[Rated De]

Lezz, taking the company to court over issues that are legally unwinnable gets very expensive and achieves nothing. It’s been done before.

Would it be auspicious to consider that instead of accepting that nothing can be done, based upon the word of one legal practictioner, to consider gaining a second opinion? Personalities aside the firm concerned may need a rest and new eyes look at things.

Whilst Qantas tie up lots of the top end firms with retainers, as this is standard Status Quo management, there are plenty of creative and well credentialed firms that just may have a different opinion to the incumbents.

[goodonyamate]

I dont think AIPA’s release even made the Australian news. Poor timing or are the endless chairman’s lounge priveleges etc influencing what is printed? Personally I think ‘journalists’ don’t exist anymore. Just idiots that regurgitate press releases and lies.

[Keg]

Three days ago on ABC.

Qantas pushes for visa extensions, more foreign pilots amid critical staff shortage - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

It’ll need a bit more to gain traction.

[Iron Bar]

Fortunately the lightweights and trolls don't appear to have much influence in the actual issues, (other than apparently annoying AIPA with stupid demands and posting on PPrune with ill informed sniping).

So I'll arrogantly say, why don't you leave the serious people at AIPA alone. By all means bitch away on PPrune if it makes you feel better. (Doesn't do any good) But don't worry the grownups will deal with the important issues.

[Beer Baron]

Sniping from the sidelines is easy. Criticising the company’s decisions, the union’s actions or playing Monday morning quarterback and pretending you saw something coming when no one else did does not make you smarter than the people in the drivers seat.

The notion that you can just get a better lawyer or speak to a minister and solve all our problems is wilfully naive.

These issues are complicated. The solutions do not come overnight. The path to the best achievable outcome can often not be spelt out in open forums for fear of derailing the strategy. Qantas have made it abundantly clear that they monitor AIPA’s communications to their members and react to them. So perhaps it is prudent that not every plan is splashed across the internet.

I’d personally put my faith in guys who have spent hundreds of hours a year, for year upon year working to better the situation of their fellow pilots rather then those who sling criticism far and wide on internet forums.

[V-Jet]

The fundamental issue is that ‘The workers’ are trying to force ‘Management’ to make decisions for the longevity of ‘The Company’ that they are supposedly already paid huge bucks to make. The problem is, those paid the huge bucks have worked out they get even more for destroying the place.

I turn up to work each time I have to, fully expecting and almost wanting to be fired for some transgression. I don’t even wear the uniform (I was once so proud to) as even close to mandated because it is an insult and its’ implementation was gross waste of precious resources. Turns out few others (including those on the EGLL ‘walk of fame’) do either - though I’m proud to say I do it worse And trust me, being fired would be a relief, I WOULD enjoy that discussion! Where I grapple with myself is that simply by turning up, I enrich the guys even more, that are causing the problem.

[Street garbage]

V-Jet, management IS detached from reality, there is a complete dis-connect from what happens in Coward St (the irony is AMAZING) to those who deal with customers at the coal face is total. Unfortunately, the 5000 people who were retrenched were in the main front line staff, forcing that remain to work twice as hard with half the resources. How many staff would have been retrenched if Mr Joyce didn't gouge $25mil, Andrew David $10m..etc etc. As I said previously, QF management are not interested in the long term viability of the Airline, in their 3 years in the Company they are only interested in achieving their KPI's, "whats in it for me", and their first class travel.
The thing that confirmed this was Andrew David and Tino at the SGM, I really shouldn't have been surprised, but there was total diconnect.

[JPJP]

Originally Posted by Arthur D

I find it somewhat hilarious that AIPA are expending so much energy (and money) on defending AFAP’s application to cover Qantas pilots.

What are they so afraid of?

Never mind the fact that AIPA did the same thing to the AFAP some years ago. Apparently the Feds have had enough and returned serve.

Wonder if that was discussed on the junket......

If you had to make a short list of things that would make FLID (Frank Lorenzo in Drag) happy - Qantas pilots bickering over representation, and divided between two unions would be very high on it.

[Rated De]

If you had to make a short list of things that would make FLID (Frank Lorenzo in Drag) happy - Qantas pilots bickering over representation, and divided between two unions would be very high on it.

Yes on first examination this may appear the case, but in actual fact Qantas and AIPA both OPPOSED the application by the AFAP.


No doubt a discussion challenges some. For those grown ups here 'handling this' you may want to ask yourselves what really is Qantas doing?

• Network and Jetconnect cannot find crew at the rate of remuneration (this is closely guarded but well known in IR/HR)
• Qantas link cannot attract crew at the current level of remuneration
• The 'cadet academy' wants 600 pilots a year. Ask why?
• The 457 visa is quietly being lobbied to be extended to five years.

This is correlated to the emerging scale of a demographic shortage. Qantas domestic will increasingly feel the shortage, flight cancellations are increasing. That is flights scheduled to be operated by Qantas domestic 737 pilots on the Domestic pilot award. IATA had a recent conference where responses to the structural shortage were discussed. Ask whether Qantas was there? They do not think this up by themselves.

• There are insufficient Qantas pilots 'bidding' to go to 737
• The directive is that all Qantas Q seniority will be 'pushed through' the 737 fleet.

The target of all this positioning is the control of domestic flying by Australian domiciled, remunerated, union covered Qantas pilots.

Direct entry on to 737 by contract 457 pilots( perhaps) may well be the target

Management are playing chess, the response to date suggests at best checkers...again

[GA Driver]

I thought this topic was about network and jq pilots???

Anyway, seeing it’s now swung to Qantas pilots and Aipa, I’ll chime in.

Why oh why aren’t aipa lobbying as loud as Qf are? I understand there IS probably significant work going on internally, and I am not simply trying to take a stab at the people who are working hard behind the scenes. BUT, whenever I asked this question to aipa about responding or lobbying, the response would be a trembling voice saying something along the lines of ‘we..... dont.... we don’t want the public...... to know...... how much we earn.....’
Seriously.......

I think the public already know, AJ and co voiced it at every opportunity and I hardly think the management team will want to bring too much attention to the subject of pay packets!
The voice from aipa is VERY quiet when it comes to anything media/lobbying/public domain. I can understand taking an aggressive line isn’t always a good idea with big business but jeeez you have to at least take a line!

Considering the ammunition available about management remuneration whilst slashing 5000 jobs and now looking at the 457 virus, I could image a tabloid along the lines of ‘QANTAS ATTEMPTING TO EMPLOY FOREIGN LABOUR -LOCAL JOBS AT STAKE’ as a good start.

[Icarus2001]

I am not convinced that "foreign labour" is anything more than a bandaid anyway. As Rated De keeps on pointing out this issue is world wide.
Sure there may be a sudden influx of foreign pilots but in reality how many are out there? Willing to move and be long term prospects?
Look at the advertising all around the world now for crews.

[GA Driver]

I am not convinced that "foreign labour" is anything more than a bandaid anyway. As Rated De keeps on pointing out this issue is world wide.

I agree with you and Rated De, my point was about AIPA and perhaps getting some information out there from the industry point of view, not Alans.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Why oh why aren’t aipa lobbying as loud as Qf are?

I’m being very general when I say this, but I’m my recent experience unions are scared to death of airline management.

[Beer Baron]

AIPA have been briefing the media. This was their media release:

The Australian and International Pilots Association (AIPA) is deeply concerned about moves by Qantas to recruit a large number of pilots overseas.

In response to an article headlined “Qantas Plea For Foreign Pilots,” published today in The Australian, AIPA President, Captain Murray Butt said the Association does not accept the premise that Australian pilots are not available to fill the positions of pilot and simulator instructors.

“There is no evidence that Qantas, Eastern, Sunstate or Network have tested the market with increased salary packages to see if Australian pilots either currently residing in Australia or working overseas are available to fill the positions,” Capt Butt said.

“Qantas should be offering salary packages that are attractive to Australian pilots. The airline needs to set salaries at a level where it is worthwhile moving more experienced crew such as second officers with 13,000 hours experience into these entities, without taking a huge pay drop.”

“Given the Reserve Bank Governor, Philip Lowe’s comments on employer resistant to wages growth, every Australian should be watching the Turnbull Governments reaction to this request.”

“If corporate Australia’s answer to upward pressure on wages growth is to sell off Australian residency, it’s hard to envisage any real wage growth in Australia in the coming years.”

Capt Butt said the shortage of pilots within the Qantas Group was a product of the airline’s own making.

“Qantas has manipulated the labour market through varying entities and low-cost carriers and set wages in these entities at such low rates, they are no longer competitive on the world market.”

“Qantas is now seeking to supplement these wage rates by offering the inducement of Australian residency.”

“As a result, low wages and the high cost of training has resulted in aviation no longer holding the attraction it once did for younger Australians.”

Capt Butt said Australia ran the risk of becoming a net importer of aviation professionals after years of being a net exporter.

[Rated De]

Thank you Beer Baron!

Could you please put a link up, our feed didn't see it.

I agree with you and Rated De, my point was about AIPA and perhaps getting some information out there from the industry point of view, not Alans.

We would content that you are correct, this is what is needed, Mr Joyce has junkets and family upgrades and Chairman's lounge with which to 'massage' opinion. In other countries that is called soft corruption. As some posters have alluded, there is little unions can do, the deck is stacked. This has happened in Europe (UK) with both 'sides' in charge.

I am not convinced that "foreign labour" is anything more than a bandaid anyway. As Rated De keeps on pointing out this issue is world wide.
Sure there may be a sudden influx of foreign pilots but in reality how many are out there? Willing to move and be long term prospects?
Look at the advertising all around the world now for crews.

Spot on. This is standard IR response. The scale of the shortage is unheard of, however the Qantas response is typical and predicated on unlimited supply. Network CANNOT crew flights, Jetconnect is the same. Applicaitons to both entities and indeed the regional subsidiaries are in the single digits.
Convincing pilots in Australia the 'sky is falling in' is the management intent(after all it worked for decades), the rebuttal (pun intended) needs to be just as vigorous.

[Street garbage]

Can anyone from Air North tell us if your Chief Pilot has resigned? And yes, this is related to Network...

[Rated De]

Just received a little correspondence.
It would appear that Network has escaped!

It is no longer confined to charter work, is it the case that it is now replacing Qantas 737 flying on the West Coast?

Gee that didn't take long!

Can any QF pilots confirm?