Reputation of Aussie pilots overseas

[parabellum]

How did the so called 'Austronaught' syndrome come into existence?

Flew with several ex AN FOs in Gulf Air in 1989/90 and found them very good, as was a senior training captain, rather different picture in SIA though. Suddenly being confronted by the European/North American winter, de-icing, Cat2/3, generally crappy weather for days on end came as a bit of a shock after Australian flying and didn't always produce a good result in terms of CRM when flying with FOs who had far more bad weather experience than the Australian captain. In SIA some of the Australian contingent presented a deliberately confrontational approach to management and several were terminated. Others just got on with the job. Heard from fellow captains that just a couple of the ex BA captains were more of a PITA with the, "We didn't do it like that in BA", most of the QF guys also just got on with the job, one tried to split crew rest to LHR etc. into four segments, instead of two and was quickly put straight! Have lived in Australia for seventeen years now and find them to be a good bunch generally but some, just a few, can be complete Chameleons when they get in an aircraft.

[FL400]

"ATC man calmly informed him that the verbal clearance had overall priority in any case."

IMO a controller calmly telling a pilot to ignore all the big red "don't ever cross this line under any circumstances ever ever" lights deserves the contempt it was apparently given

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

Originally Posted by oicur12.again

“You think the distance to be flown to Oz, therefore the max weight take-off near limits might have something to do with it!”

Well, AA were operating a 777 that night and it headed off no questions asked. Same for DL and CX heading for HKG with probably the longest haul of the night!!!!

I don’t think it was sector length.

I’d have thought that LAX-SYD is further than LAX-HKG, and pax and freight load might come into it, but whatever.

[parabellum]

IMO a controller calmly telling a pilot to ignore all the big red "don't ever cross this line under any circumstances ever ever" lights deserves the contempt it was apparently given

Just occasionally a technical problem will prevent the controller from changing the stop bar to green or out. Used LHR a lot, sometimes heard or said myself, (callsign)"we have a red bar coming up" if our clearance was to a point beyond it. No big drama or cause for agitation really.

[FL400]

Originally Posted by parabellum

No big drama or cause for agitation really.

Until the controller makes an error and you sail past the one thing that was correctly telling you that it wasn't safe to enter the occupied runway.

[swh]

Originally Posted by oicur12.again

“You think the distance to be flown to Oz, therefore the max weight take-off near limits might have something to do with it!”

Well, AA were operating a 777 that night and it headed off no questions asked. Same for DL and CX heading for HKG with probably the longest haul of the night!!!!

I don’t think it was sector length.

For a start QF and VA are not FAA 121 operators, they have to comply with CASA requirements they reinvented regulation. I don’t see the problem with this, the numbers say it was not legal. Being the most litigious society on the earth, Americans I would have thought would be the last to bend the rules if the numbers say it is not legal.

CX have paid for the thrust bump on their engines, even out of HKG 2kts tail can be too much on a 777. CX performance numbers factor the wind to provide a further buffer, wouldn’t be surprised if other airlines do the same.

[parabellum]

Until the controller makes an error and you sail past the one thing that was correctly telling you that it wasn't safe to enter the occupied runway.

the cross checking at LHR is such that I doubt very much that would happen, the query alone about the stop bar would start the checking process.

[mrdeux]

Originally Posted by Dufo

Is it true that in Qantas it is forbidden for FO and SO to call captain by the first name?

I find that they use 'arsehole' a fair bit.....I've learnt to answer to it.

[Derfred]

Stop bars:

I believe we have stop bars partly due to one of the worst aviation disasters in history:

Tenerife Airport Disaster - Wikipedia

The main cause of the accident was a breakdown in communications.

On that basis, a “communication” to cross a lit stop bar would surely have to be put down to a complete failure to learn from history. How do you know they are using the correct callsign?

[krismiler]

At some airports they will switch all the ground lights on during the daytime for inspection and broadcast this on the ATIS.

[Derfred]

Originally Posted by krismiler

At some airports they will switch all the ground lights on during the daytime for inspection and broadcast this on the ATIS.

In my airline, crossing a lit stop bar must never occur under any circumstances. Maybe that makes my airline an “Austro-airline”.....

I’m also pretty sure there is no way Australian ATC would ask me to. Maybe that makes them “Austro-ATC”.....

In any case, if I decided to cross one, there is no way my F/O would let me, so we are obviously inundated with “Austro-F/O’s”....

It’s a wonder we ever get airborne... :j

[Capn Bloggs]

Originally Posted by Defred

In my airline, crossing a lit stop bar must never occur under any circumstances. Maybe that makes my airline an “Austro-airline”.....

I’m also pretty sure there is no way Australian ATC would ask me to. Maybe that makes them “Austro-ATC”.....

In any case, if I decided to cross one, there is no way my F/O would let me, so we are obviously inundated with “Austro-F/O’s”....

It’s a wonder we ever get airborne... :j

They might now:
http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/...up/a18-h02.pdf

[Consol]

Originally Posted by Derfred

In my airline, crossing a lit stop bar must never occur under any circumstances. Maybe that makes my airline an “Austro-airline”.....

I’m also pretty sure there is no way Australian ATC would ask me to. Maybe that makes them “Austro-ATC”.....

In any case, if I decided to cross one, there is no way my F/O would let me, so we are obviously inundated with “Austro-F/O’s”....

It’s a wonder we ever get airborne... :j

My point was just why he was so worked up on air when a simple query would have done the job, no one is suggesting ignoring stop bars. (It was on a ramp not to a runway). Most of us don't feel the need to call out LHR ATC loudly over the air as they are rather good at their job.

However since we have thread drifted imagine yourself on a CAVOK and well controlled airport with no conflicting traffic and the red bars from one taxiway to another are on.
Do you,

A, check and receive an assurance from ATC that the bars are inoperative stuck on and that you may procede which you then do after double checking carefully?

B, receive the same but refuse to cross them until you have run out of duty hours/used up flight plan fuel?

I'd be an A man myself. Looking forward to replies about shocking disregard for safety.

[Derfred]

Haha Bloggs, good pickup

Hadn’t caught up with that one yet!

They must have been reading this thread.

Maybe we’re just catching up with the rest of the world.

Bloody Austronaughts

[Derfred]

Originally Posted by Consol

Taxing along in LHR last week I heard an excited and somewhat vexed antipodean voice calling out ATC over some minor stop bar issue twice, seemed to be from a CX. ATC man calmly informed him that the verbal clearance had overall priority in any case. No biggie, it just seemed an over the top reaction in a very well controlled airport but I couldn't help thinking what a long flight that must have been for the other mortal pilot.

Consol, this post wasn’t clear on the circumstances, and I latched onto your comment that “verbal clearance had overall priority in any case”.

Verbal clearance can’t possibly have overall priority “in any case”. All you need is callsign confusion and you might as well not have installed the stop bars in the first place.

I can understand special cases where it is clear that there is a stop bar failure and SOP’s allow an override given special phraseology as has just been mentioned above. CASA has only just reached that level of maturity - an “Austro-regulator?”....

P.S. no excuse for being excited or vexed on R/T.

[Consol]

Originally Posted by Derfred

Consol, this post wasn’t clear on the circumstances, and I latched onto your comment that “verbal clearance had overall priority in any case”.

Verbal clearance can’t possibly have overall priority “in any case”. All you need is callsign confusion and you might as well not have installed the stop bars in the first place.

I can understand special cases where it is clear that there is a stop bar failure and SOP’s allow an override given special phraseology as has just been mentioned above. CASA has only just reached that level of maturity - an “Austro-regulator?”....

Fair point Derfred, I did say it was in LHR but I should have been clearer. The guidance green lights and stop bars are used to facilitate taxiing, they are not the runway hold short bars which of course are extremely important. If recollection serves me correctly our CX Oz mate was rather pompously objecting to a stop bar not backing up a taxi clearance and the controller informed him that the verbal clearance took priority anyway. E.g. You are still supposed to stop in accordance with your verbal clearance even if the lights indicate you may procede.

I didn't intend to start a thread drift on stop bars, once again my point was merely an observation on why this guy felt the need to loudly call out (twice) a very efficient ATC operation when a simple query would have done the job and been easier on our ears. I query ATC clearances most days without a ceremony and get on with the job.

[Derfred]

Originally Posted by Consol

Fair point Derfred but I did say it was in LHR but I should have been clearer. The guidance green lights and stop bars are used to facilitate taxiing, they are not the runway hold short bars which of course are extremely important. If recollection serves me correctly our CX Oz mate was rather pompously objecting to a stop bar not backing up a taxi clearance and the controller informed him that the verbal clearance took priority anyway. E.g. You are still supposed to stop in accordance with your verbal clearance even if the lights indicate you may procede.

I didn't intend to start a thread drift on stop bars, once again my point was merely an observation on why this guy felt the need to loudly call out (twice) a very efficient ATC operation when a simple query would have done the job and been easier on our ears. I query ATC clearances most days without a ceremony and get on with the job then.

I hear you loud and clear!

Prior to your response I actually just edited my post “no excuses for vexed or excited R/T”, and it’s probably this that was the Austronaught problem rather than the stop bars.

I don’t know that vexed and excited R/T is a particular Austronaught problem, but they do have a habit of questioning questionable ATC clearances, which is a highly admirable trait.

For example:

ATC: Turn left heading 090, descend 3000 (into a mountain)
Not good pilot: Left heading 090, descend 3000
Austronaught: Negative
ATC: CORRECTION, TURN RIGHT, REPEAT RIGHT...

[exeng]

Cannot speak for reputation overseas but can speak as an expat working for QF in OZ

By and large the QF Pilots and F/E's I worked with were very decent and professional individuals.

Of course there were the odd individuals as I have found in all airlines - there were certainly a number in BA/BOAC.

I was seconded to QF from BA in the mid 1980's as an F/E. Very happy days.

QF Pilots and F/E's have earned a reputation for which they should be proud.


Kind regards
Exeng

[krismiler]

These days there is much more emphasis on CRM and recruiting someone who can fit in to a team. Modern training programs instill the correct flight deck culture from the beginning into new trainees and interviewers reject unsuitable experienced applicants who won’t adapt.

The days of the ex WW2 Squadron Leader bomber pilot flying a B707 for BOAC before SOPs were developed are thankfully long gone.

[mostlytossas]

Well we can't have pilots thinking for themselves now can we?
Further I would suggest in Asia especially this same "culture" is why some crews will watch on while the captain flies straight into the end of the runway wall.