Airline Seniority Question
There is a old saying, “You never turn down a command.” Even going from jet down to turboprop you still took it as that was when your career really started.
As always there were a few exceptions, older pilots who were on a desirable fleet with a good base who didn’t want the bother of a upgrade and conversion together with moving house. With various allowances factored in you could be worse off financially and not have the seniority to get back on your desired fleet.
Three trips a month in a wide body vs multi sector days in a turboprop could swing it for some people.
As always there were a few exceptions, older pilots who were on a desirable fleet with a good base who didn’t want the bother of a upgrade and conversion together with moving house. With various allowances factored in you could be worse off financially and not have the seniority to get back on your desired fleet.
Three trips a month in a wide body vs multi sector days in a turboprop could swing it for some people.
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I heard that Pan Am SFO's, based in Hawaii on the B747 gave up a shot at a command that would base them in New York, may just be anecdotal but the life style change would be quite large, I would think.
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Seniority only works for the Company and weak pilots.
If we had no seniority system and instead worked like doctors/lawyers/accountants etc then pilots would have a lot more industrial power. As it stands the Company know full well that no pilot is leaving. Having seniority as the standard across the industry has done far more harm to us than anything else.
Weak pilots are becoming more common as they know that the standard is low and that there is no point in acieving anything more than a minimum pass. Just wait your turn, take a couple goes at the upgrade, easier to pass you than get you out of the Company.
If we had no seniority system and instead worked like doctors/lawyers/accountants etc then pilots would have a lot more industrial power. As it stands the Company know full well that no pilot is leaving. Having seniority as the standard across the industry has done far more harm to us than anything else.
Weak pilots are becoming more common as they know that the standard is low and that there is no point in acieving anything more than a minimum pass. Just wait your turn, take a couple goes at the upgrade, easier to pass you than get you out of the Company.
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Seniority only works for the Company and weak pilots.
If we had no seniority system and instead worked like doctors/lawyers/accountants etc then pilots would have a lot more industrial power. As it stands the Company know full well that no pilot is leaving. Having seniority as the standard across the industry has done far more harm to us than anything else.
Weak pilots are becoming more common as they know that the standard is low and that there is no point in acieving anything more than a minimum pass. Just wait your turn, take a couple goes at the upgrade, easier to pass you than get you out of the Company.
If we had no seniority system and instead worked like doctors/lawyers/accountants etc then pilots would have a lot more industrial power. As it stands the Company know full well that no pilot is leaving. Having seniority as the standard across the industry has done far more harm to us than anything else.
Weak pilots are becoming more common as they know that the standard is low and that there is no point in acieving anything more than a minimum pass. Just wait your turn, take a couple goes at the upgrade, easier to pass you than get you out of the Company.
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If we had no seniority system and instead worked like doctors/lawyers/accountants etc then pilots would have a lot more industrial power.
You assume that airlines won't collude against you to keep salaries down.
Don't forget that Aviation is more akin to professional sports (ie very few buyers of your labour) than it is a real labour market that accountants and doctors operate in.
Last edited by neville_nobody; 12th Feb 2018 at 05:06.
Seniority only works for the Company and weak pilots.
If we had no seniority system and instead worked like doctors/lawyers/accountants etc then pilots would have a lot more industrial power. As it stands the Company know full well that no pilot is leaving. Having seniority as the standard across the industry has done far more harm to us than anything else.
Weak pilots are becoming more common as they know that the standard is low and that there is no point in acieving anything more than a minimum pass. Just wait your turn, take a couple goes at the upgrade, easier to pass you than get you out of the Company.
If we had no seniority system and instead worked like doctors/lawyers/accountants etc then pilots would have a lot more industrial power. As it stands the Company know full well that no pilot is leaving. Having seniority as the standard across the industry has done far more harm to us than anything else.
Weak pilots are becoming more common as they know that the standard is low and that there is no point in acieving anything more than a minimum pass. Just wait your turn, take a couple goes at the upgrade, easier to pass you than get you out of the Company.
Ever flown for an Airline without seniority? I have. You think Commands get awarded on merit? That the average Pilot waiting for "Grandad" to retire will get their shot quicker if they put the work in?
Didn't work that way in my experience. How about a "Command Assessment interview" with HR? Are you a Company Man/Woman? Why should we give you a Command? Why do you deserve one? Do you have the Companies best interests in mind?
Yea, I'll take seniority any day.
Or promotions are awarded to the chief pilot’s mates, or those from the right background or the “old boys club”. Nepotism at its finest.
That only really applies to Legacy Carriers. Plenty of Pilots leave seniority based Airlines for other Seniority based Airlines with better T's & C's.
Ever flown for an Airline without seniority? I have. You think Commands get awarded on merit? That the average Pilot waiting for "Grandad" to retire will get their shot quicker if they put the work in?
Didn't work that way in my experience. How about a "Command Assessment interview" with HR? Are you a Company Man/Woman? Why should we give you a Command? Why do you deserve one? Do you have the Companies best interests in mind?
Yea, I'll take seniority any day.
Ever flown for an Airline without seniority? I have. You think Commands get awarded on merit? That the average Pilot waiting for "Grandad" to retire will get their shot quicker if they put the work in?
Didn't work that way in my experience. How about a "Command Assessment interview" with HR? Are you a Company Man/Woman? Why should we give you a Command? Why do you deserve one? Do you have the Companies best interests in mind?
Yea, I'll take seniority any day.
It’s only positive attribute is that all of the alternatives are worse.
Moderator
Seniority only works for the Company and weak pilots.
Seniority is a terrible system for an airline to use for deciding who will get a promotion.
Rather short-sighted views, methinks, although I note the implied smile in the latter post.
First have a strong union so that most of the time, most of the people, are kept reasonably honest in their employment dealings.
Second, so far as a command upgrade is concerned, seniority only means that Pilot Bloggs gets to have a run at command training in a reasonably predictable sequence .. unless things have changed dreadfully, it doesn't necessarily mean that he/she gets the guernsey, only the opportunity. He/she still has to get over the various bars in the vaulting exercises ... I would be surprised if folk get to have more than 2-3 attempts before they either get the bullet or permanent F/O status ..
As to better ways of doing business .. of course there would be .. provided that everyone were morally honourable .. but that remains a problem.
Seniority is a terrible system for an airline to use for deciding who will get a promotion.
Rather short-sighted views, methinks, although I note the implied smile in the latter post.
First have a strong union so that most of the time, most of the people, are kept reasonably honest in their employment dealings.
Second, so far as a command upgrade is concerned, seniority only means that Pilot Bloggs gets to have a run at command training in a reasonably predictable sequence .. unless things have changed dreadfully, it doesn't necessarily mean that he/she gets the guernsey, only the opportunity. He/she still has to get over the various bars in the vaulting exercises ... I would be surprised if folk get to have more than 2-3 attempts before they either get the bullet or permanent F/O status ..
As to better ways of doing business .. of course there would be .. provided that everyone were morally honourable .. but that remains a problem.
With my mob its 2 attempts then forget about it. Best start looking around as career F/Os are officially first inline for the chop in a down turn.
Some times moving on is the best thing as a different operation provides a fresh start and another go a few years further down the track could result in a first time pass.
I know someone who was told he'd never be Captain in the airforce on transports, same thing in his first airline yet managed the upgrade in Cathay Pacific and rose to a senior position.
Some times moving on is the best thing as a different operation provides a fresh start and another go a few years further down the track could result in a first time pass.
I know someone who was told he'd never be Captain in the airforce on transports, same thing in his first airline yet managed the upgrade in Cathay Pacific and rose to a senior position.
The Heads of Flights Ops I know of want to be able to sleep at night and not have to worry about substandard Captains ruining their day by doing something dumb and trying maim the customers. Very doubtful they'd sanction upgrading rather than by passing somebody.
Seniority only works for the Company and weak pilots.
Seniority is a terrible system for an airline to use for deciding who will get a promotion.
Rather short-sighted views, methinks, although I note the implied smile in the latter post.
First have a strong union so that most of the time, most of the people, are kept reasonably honest in their employment dealings.
Second, so far as a command upgrade is concerned, seniority only means that Pilot Bloggs gets to have a run at command training in a reasonably predictable sequence .. unless things have changed dreadfully, it doesn't necessarily mean that he/she gets the guernsey, only the opportunity. He/she still has to get over the various bars in the vaulting exercises ... I would be surprised if folk get to have more than 2-3 attempts before they either get the bullet or permanent F/O status ..
As to better ways of doing business .. of course there would be .. provided that everyone were morally honourable .. but that remains a problem.
Seniority is a terrible system for an airline to use for deciding who will get a promotion.
Rather short-sighted views, methinks, although I note the implied smile in the latter post.
First have a strong union so that most of the time, most of the people, are kept reasonably honest in their employment dealings.
Second, so far as a command upgrade is concerned, seniority only means that Pilot Bloggs gets to have a run at command training in a reasonably predictable sequence .. unless things have changed dreadfully, it doesn't necessarily mean that he/she gets the guernsey, only the opportunity. He/she still has to get over the various bars in the vaulting exercises ... I would be surprised if folk get to have more than 2-3 attempts before they either get the bullet or permanent F/O status ..
As to better ways of doing business .. of course there would be .. provided that everyone were morally honourable .. but that remains a problem.
First have a strong union so that most of the time, most of the people, are kept reasonably honest in their employment dealings.
Second, so far as a command upgrade is concerned, seniority only means that Pilot Bloggs gets to have a run at command training in a reasonably predictable sequence .. unless things have changed dreadfully, it doesn't necessarily mean that he/she gets the guernsey, only the opportunity. He/she still has to get over the various bars in the vaulting exercises ... I would be surprised if folk get to have more than 2-3 attempts before they either get the bullet or permanent F/O status ..
As to better ways of doing business .. of course there would be .. provided that everyone were morally honourable .. but that remains a problem.
Well said, Sir. You're a wordsmith. Your last statement sums it up very succinctly.
And, if I may say so, those who find a seniority system an affront to their sensitivities are under no obligation to seek employment where one exists.
Seniority is a bit of a sugar pill really.
99% of pilots in an airline are just your average, capable, unknown to management operators who would pretty much get a crack at promotion based on time of service regardless of a seniority system.
The other 1% still manage to bypass seniority and get the “jobs for the boys” in the form of manager, assistant manager, technical expert, etc roles.
For the airline, seniority ensures a stable senior workforce that is pretty much going to do as they are told.
If it all becomes too difficult for the airline to fulfill their obligations to seniority, they simply start or buy a splinter group to get around it.
The answers (perhaps):
No seniority, but a powerful industry body like the AMA, with some control over the supply of pilots (limiting license numbers)
Or;
An industry wide seniority - you get a number when you get your CPL or ATPL.
99% of pilots in an airline are just your average, capable, unknown to management operators who would pretty much get a crack at promotion based on time of service regardless of a seniority system.
The other 1% still manage to bypass seniority and get the “jobs for the boys” in the form of manager, assistant manager, technical expert, etc roles.
For the airline, seniority ensures a stable senior workforce that is pretty much going to do as they are told.
If it all becomes too difficult for the airline to fulfill their obligations to seniority, they simply start or buy a splinter group to get around it.
The answers (perhaps):
No seniority, but a powerful industry body like the AMA, with some control over the supply of pilots (limiting license numbers)
Or;
An industry wide seniority - you get a number when you get your CPL or ATPL.
Industry wide seniority, I like the sound of that!
There are many of us who through no fault of our own, missed the boat when the airlines were in a hiring boom mid 2000’s. As such, we found ourselves locked out of the ‘seniority system’ in Australia. Then eventually when things were on again, we were at the bottom of the list, with no chance to get anywhere near a command for a long time, and trying to raise families in expensive Australian cities on crappy low cost airline wages.
Thus, for me, the decision was to leave Australia and chase commands overseas instead, and earn better money so my kids could have a good education in the future.
Unfortunately this leaves people like me out of the seniority system back home, and makes it difficult to return.
Thus, it becomes clearer why I don’t like the seniority system!
morno
There are many of us who through no fault of our own, missed the boat when the airlines were in a hiring boom mid 2000’s. As such, we found ourselves locked out of the ‘seniority system’ in Australia. Then eventually when things were on again, we were at the bottom of the list, with no chance to get anywhere near a command for a long time, and trying to raise families in expensive Australian cities on crappy low cost airline wages.
Thus, for me, the decision was to leave Australia and chase commands overseas instead, and earn better money so my kids could have a good education in the future.
Unfortunately this leaves people like me out of the seniority system back home, and makes it difficult to return.
Thus, it becomes clearer why I don’t like the seniority system!
morno
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Seniority only works for the Company and weak pilots.
An FO awaiting upgrade has to achieve a number of prerequisits. Sufficient hours, appropriate licence, suitability, including a satisfactory training and disciplinary record, pass a command assessment and, if a seniority based airline, have sufficient seniority, but all seniority does is give a pilot a go in their due turn, it certainly doesn't guarantee a pass.
I’m not in the airline industry but have worked in organisations where seniority was the 1st determinant for promotion and have also worked organisations that were (largely) merit based.
Neither is optimal.
Under both methods there will always be those who should have received advancement, and didn’t; and those who shouldn’t have received advancement, and did – despite the best efforts spent evaluating their capabilities.
Seniority sucks when people who are “adequate” for promotion are selected ahead of other, more capable people, due to that seniority e.g. I’m sure there would be a FOs who would be better captains than some already in that role, and some FOs who would more suited to still being SOs …
Perhaps the process should retain the current pre-requisites for ‘promotion’ (as noted by parabellum in #37), and include some form of "peer" assessment e.g. from captains flown with; check captains; Sim evaluators; etc?
Also, from a quick trawl around the ‘net, the seniority system may be open to legal challenge. It would appear that, in Canada at least, some seniority systems have been the subject of court action due their perceived discriminatory effect.
regards
layman
Neither is optimal.
Under both methods there will always be those who should have received advancement, and didn’t; and those who shouldn’t have received advancement, and did – despite the best efforts spent evaluating their capabilities.
Seniority sucks when people who are “adequate” for promotion are selected ahead of other, more capable people, due to that seniority e.g. I’m sure there would be a FOs who would be better captains than some already in that role, and some FOs who would more suited to still being SOs …
Perhaps the process should retain the current pre-requisites for ‘promotion’ (as noted by parabellum in #37), and include some form of "peer" assessment e.g. from captains flown with; check captains; Sim evaluators; etc?
Also, from a quick trawl around the ‘net, the seniority system may be open to legal challenge. It would appear that, in Canada at least, some seniority systems have been the subject of court action due their perceived discriminatory effect.
regards
layman
