So you need a new fleet Leigh?
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Not anti the aircraft however what Qantas want to do will be hard flying on the body. If you think 23 hour work days leaving at night is easy then your viewpoint disagrees with the science otherwise it would be legal. Regardless No one has flown it so anyone that says it’s easy is full of S$&*. If your (sic) potentially flying this kind of operation for many years consecutively, potentially to 65 and beyond it needs to be safe and sustainable. I believe CASA are of the viewpoint it’s not safe as other countries don’t allow it.
It is not as any such study fails to meet benchmarks for established statistical modelling.
Instead, Little Napoleon stresses "efficiencies" need to advance by the pilots, otherwise, ever the one trick pony, the aircraft go somewhere else.
Such TOD extensions may not meet with member state approvals.
Aircraft capability may limit the operation, but health outcomes over the long term ought be the prime focus. They are not as the study is not long of sufficient size or duration from which any meaningful inference can be drawn.
Seriously cry me a river.........
QF need a new fleet... ok here’s a new fleet idea with a new route... Hang on no as pilots we don’t want that cause it’s never been done before. Ahhh if Wilbur and Orville had that thought.
Yes it’s going to be a tough duty, no I’ve never done ULH nor do I really want to. However push vote standup for a roster that says that’s all you do and I reckon the doors will be knocked down.
Grab the SQ roster for EWR, although as stated very different FDP, but let’s have a look.
A mate of mine once said, what’s the diff between a pilot and a whining dog? Yep eventually the dog will stop whining! Yes he knew he was one of them (as we all are).
Now what will the crew complement be? 2 Capt, 2 FO? SO? Whatever it will be will be overkill as that’s no doubt what you will demand, but seriously stop harping on about this. It will happen if the aircraft can do it so get over it and make it work for you.
Rant over... for now!
QF need a new fleet... ok here’s a new fleet idea with a new route... Hang on no as pilots we don’t want that cause it’s never been done before. Ahhh if Wilbur and Orville had that thought.
Yes it’s going to be a tough duty, no I’ve never done ULH nor do I really want to. However push vote standup for a roster that says that’s all you do and I reckon the doors will be knocked down.
Grab the SQ roster for EWR, although as stated very different FDP, but let’s have a look.
A mate of mine once said, what’s the diff between a pilot and a whining dog? Yep eventually the dog will stop whining! Yes he knew he was one of them (as we all are).
Now what will the crew complement be? 2 Capt, 2 FO? SO? Whatever it will be will be overkill as that’s no doubt what you will demand, but seriously stop harping on about this. It will happen if the aircraft can do it so get over it and make it work for you.
Rant over... for now!
“Yes it’s going to be a tough duty, no I’ve never done ULH nor do I really want to. However ...”
Mate of mine said some pilots can't help themselves arguing about things they have no idea about.
Mate of mine said some pilots can't help themselves arguing about things they have no idea about.
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Seriously cry me a river.........
QF need a new fleet... ok here’s a new fleet idea with a new route... Hang on no as pilots we don’t want that cause it’s never been done before. Ahhh if Wilbur and Orville had that thought.
Yes it’s going to be a tough duty, no I’ve never done ULH nor do I really want to. However push vote standup for a roster that says that’s all you do and I reckon the doors will be knocked down.
Grab the SQ roster for EWR, although as stated very different FDP, but let’s have a look.
A mate of mine once said, what’s the diff between a pilot and a whining dog? Yep eventually the dog will stop whining! Yes he knew he was one of them (as we all are).
Now what will the crew complement be? 2 Capt, 2 FO? SO? Whatever it will be will be overkill as that’s no doubt what you will demand, but seriously stop harping on about this. It will happen if the aircraft can do it so get over it and make it work for you.
Rant over... for now!
QF need a new fleet... ok here’s a new fleet idea with a new route... Hang on no as pilots we don’t want that cause it’s never been done before. Ahhh if Wilbur and Orville had that thought.
Yes it’s going to be a tough duty, no I’ve never done ULH nor do I really want to. However push vote standup for a roster that says that’s all you do and I reckon the doors will be knocked down.
Grab the SQ roster for EWR, although as stated very different FDP, but let’s have a look.
A mate of mine once said, what’s the diff between a pilot and a whining dog? Yep eventually the dog will stop whining! Yes he knew he was one of them (as we all are).
Now what will the crew complement be? 2 Capt, 2 FO? SO? Whatever it will be will be overkill as that’s no doubt what you will demand, but seriously stop harping on about this. It will happen if the aircraft can do it so get over it and make it work for you.
Rant over... for now!
That they need a new fleet is axiomatic.
The "study" they propose does not meet established benchmarks.
Shiny metal jet syndrome is a well known, successful yet unstudied phenomena too..
Mate of mine said some pilots can't help themselves arguing about things they have no idea about.
Ought not crew health be first and foremost? A longitudinal study of sufficient duration with sufficient sample size would provide an idea of what is presently unknown.
Now what will the crew complement be? 2 Capt, 2 FO? SO? Whatever it will be will be overkill…...
At the moment the proposed crew complement is that currently used; 1 Captain, 1 F/O and 2 S/Os. SQ used 2 Captains and 2 F/Os.
The significance of this is that for one crewmember to rest in the latter part of the cruise, the other front seat pilot will have been in the seat for 4 or 5 hours prior to commencing the approach, having had probably 3 rest breaks comprising maybe two continuous periods of sleep of 3 to 4 hours at best. If the suggested ETD is that mentioned previously, the crew may not have slept 'normally' in a convention bed for around 36 hours. That sounds adequate if your at home and going to spend a day doing whatever you do, but not if your are required to be adequately rested for an approach that is routine most days but potentially challenging on others.
It's not that the pilots don't want to do these trips, it's that they want scientifically based information and an appropriate crew complement to ensure that they are able to operate it safely with the minimum impact on their health.
They also believe there are significant efficiencies by the very nature of the operation without, for example, intervening layovers and the associated costs, that further efficiencies sought by the company are unnecessary given the huge efficiencies gained with the 787 award.
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I wouldn't give Global Aviator too much oxygen people, they are just looking for someone to blame for when they shelve the whole project..blame the pilots, it's EBA time. His opening line.."it's an idea" ...sums up Qantas management "strategy" (LMAO) of the last decade..an idea like Red Roo, Jetstar HK, etc etc. When due process occurs with those "ideas"..how many a/c have we ordered in that time frame people??
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The sunrise pilots won’t be the first humans to spend 24 hours at work.
NSW firefighters do 24 on 24 off 24 on 5 days off and it sure seems popular. A lot more days at home than a short haul pilot.
https://amp.smh.com.au/national/nsw/...15-gjn1sk.html
NSW firefighters do 24 on 24 off 24 on 5 days off and it sure seems popular. A lot more days at home than a short haul pilot.
https://amp.smh.com.au/national/nsw/...15-gjn1sk.html
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I too work 24 hour shifts at a Central Queensland Helicopter Rescue base.
Like the NSW firefighters, I get to sleep at work. In a proper bed, at sealevel. Not in a big long tube at 36000 feet with a lot of ambient noise. The quality of sleep would be questionable.
We have a 15 minute response time during the day, therefore must be awake. Then being called out at midnight for a 5 - 6 hour task is hard work. Even though I may have had a few hours sleep. I have gone offline due to fatigue with plenty of "duty hours" remaining. Because I felt I was a danger to myself and the crew. Probably don't have that luxury at 36000 feet.
Like the NSW firefighters, I get to sleep at work. In a proper bed, at sealevel. Not in a big long tube at 36000 feet with a lot of ambient noise. The quality of sleep would be questionable.
We have a 15 minute response time during the day, therefore must be awake. Then being called out at midnight for a 5 - 6 hour task is hard work. Even though I may have had a few hours sleep. I have gone offline due to fatigue with plenty of "duty hours" remaining. Because I felt I was a danger to myself and the crew. Probably don't have that luxury at 36000 feet.
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I too work 24 hour shifts at a Central Queensland Helicopter Rescue base.
Like the NSW firefighters, I get to sleep at work. In a proper bed, at sealevel. Not in a big long tube at 36000 feet with a lot of ambient noise. The quality of sleep would be questionable.
We have a 15 minute response time during the day, therefore must be awake. Then being called out at midnight for a 5 - 6 hour task is hard work. Even though I may have had a few hours sleep. I have gone offline due to fatigue with plenty of "duty hours" remaining. Because I felt I was a danger to myself and the crew. Probably don't have that luxury at 36000 feet.
Like the NSW firefighters, I get to sleep at work. In a proper bed, at sealevel. Not in a big long tube at 36000 feet with a lot of ambient noise. The quality of sleep would be questionable.
We have a 15 minute response time during the day, therefore must be awake. Then being called out at midnight for a 5 - 6 hour task is hard work. Even though I may have had a few hours sleep. I have gone offline due to fatigue with plenty of "duty hours" remaining. Because I felt I was a danger to myself and the crew. Probably don't have that luxury at 36000 feet.
The effects on long term health are unknown-unknowns at 36,000'.
The effects of long term repeated exposure are also unknown.
Qantas need new aircraft, they need a direction that isn't inward looking, solely focused on unit cost reductions.
I was surprised to read it won’t be 2 Capt & 2 FO, next they will push to make crew rest in the bunk not count like a sandy airline.....
So that is my point fight for what you want and you can’t tell me that only doing the 3 ULH in the bid period (as mentioned above) would not be fantastic.
Mix in Asia’s with ULH and I agree it would not be nice!
So that is my point fight for what you want and you can’t tell me that only doing the 3 ULH in the bid period (as mentioned above) would not be fantastic.
Mix in Asia’s with ULH and I agree it would not be nice!
It would be pretty tough being the only Captain if it was a challenging flight. Most flights.....routine, once or twice a year it seems that if something can go wrong it will. On those rare flights I think I would burn out mentally prior to TOD!
Apologies as I haven't read this thread in it's entirety, but I flew QF10 last year not long after the route launched and whilst waiting to clear immigration in Perth, the flight crew caught up with the mainstream pax which consisted of 1 Capt, 1 FO and 2 SO's, absolutely no disrespect to the drivers up front but that surprised me a little for an ULH.
It doesn’t matter if there is 1 Capt or 4 Capts. Only one of them is the PIC for the whole flight. I doubt changing the makeup of the 4 crew is going to change the fatigue levels.
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Okay bear with me. Was thinking a while ago how to do this flight and can only really come up with one way which is a bit outside the box but then again so is all of the Sunrise stuff. So thought I’d share it on here after reading the previous posts if only for another point of view.
Doubt we will see 2 Cpts and 2 F/Os on Qantas ULH. My theory here involves 1 Cpt 2 F/Os and 2 S/Os which would be a similar cost and in my opinion safer as much less time will be spent on the deck vs 4 pilot and it gives the ability to plan long breaks and more beneficial sleep periods much better.
Re dealing with the regulator and the pilots association. At the moment the longest planned flight deck time allowed is 8.5 hours in Qf Long Haul. Running Sunrise 4 pilot smashes that out of the park. What I propose keeps it reasonably close whilst still being reasonably cost effective especially vs 2 Cpts 2 F/Os.
There must always be at least one pilot with a command endorsement on the flight deck at any one time. At the moment a Cpt and F/O (Long Haul) in Qantas hold that endorsement. S/O does not. As such always need a Cpt or F/O on the flight deck.
Also one of the most challenging things about this flight will be the fatigue in the second half and maintaining concentration. The below roster would ensure that towards the end of the flight there is always one pilot who has been on the flight deck for a period longer than the other so someone is always in the “loop” rather than just having the crew both swap at the same time. Also towards the end of the flight the rest/change over periods are shorter so less risk of errors due to the fatigue of long stints at the controls involving controlled rest etc. Doing it this way ensures there is a fresh crew member is at the controls on average every 2.8 hours (with longer breaks at the start and shorter toward the end).
The last comment that I would make is for this to work everyone would need to know their role beforehand and turn up for work accordingly. More about that later.
The following assumes:
22hr flight time. 30 min taxi.
1 hr report. 0.5 hr stand down for 24 hr tour of duty. It can be pretty easily adjusted if required depending on the flight time. But in this example:
TOD 24 hrs
Off blocks 22.5hrs
Captain (obviously there for takeoff and landing) = C1
Take Off and Landing First Officer = F1
Cruise First Officer = F2
Second Officers = S1 & S2
Roster as follows:
C1 & F1
Taxi (20mins) and first 2:40hrs for total 3hrs in seat. (All times below are time in flight deck seat).
C1 or F1 (most tired goes off) & S1
4hrs
F2 & S1
3.5hrs
F2 & S2
3.5hrs
C1 or F1 who went on break first & S2
3.5hrs
C1 or F1 who went on break first & S1
0.5hrs
F2 & S1
1hr
F2 & S2
1-1.5hrs (F2) 1.5hrs (S2)
C1 & F1 One comes back before the other so both not swapping together at their discretion.
2-2.5hrs (C1) 2-2.5hrs (F1) including 10 minute taxi.
Total time in seat:
C1 9-9.5hrs
F1 9-9.5hrs
F2 9-9.5hrs
S1 9hrs
S2 8.5hrs
Longest break in order to get a normal sleep period:
C1: 11hrs or 13hrs depending on 1st or 2nd break taken.
F1: 11hrs or 13hrs depending on 1st or 2nd break taken.
F2: 7 hours at start. 4 hours in middle. More broken as not doing takeoff or landing. Doesn’t drink coffee before flight and knows to turn up to work ready to sleep.
S1: 7 hrs.
S2: 10.5 hrs. Also doesn’t drink coffee before the flight and know to turn up to work ready to sleep.
Total time off each approx at least 13 hrs.
For this to work the roles would need to be designated before the flight with a schedule written similar to what other ULR operators do. The Captain and FO should figure out before the flight who wants to go off first so they know how tired to be at the beginning of the duty. That way everyone knows how to plan their rest.
This is the only way I can see which Sunrise can be crewed. 4 pilot just has everyone in the seat too long with too many broken breaks especially with 1 Cpt 1 F/O and 2 S/Os. 5 crew is complicated but not impossible. Easy spreadsheet app for the iPad and could be adapted slightly on the day depending on flight and departure times. It ensures that all the crew have had someone else on duty for a period when they get on duty so someone is always in the loop and the take off and landing pilots both have a big stretch off to get a proper sleep like in a normal 24 hour period. Hopefully this would satisfy the regulator and the AIPA. Also in the event of a medical diversion there is better opportunities to extend and get still have adequate rest.
Lastly yes this would add slightly more weight needing 3 crew rest areas but as the holds will not have much more than pax bags in them there will be plenty of space considering the size of the jet so perhaps creative use of this space for a crew rest area which doesn’t add much more weight than a 2 crew rest could be devised.
Doubt we will see 2 Cpts and 2 F/Os on Qantas ULH. My theory here involves 1 Cpt 2 F/Os and 2 S/Os which would be a similar cost and in my opinion safer as much less time will be spent on the deck vs 4 pilot and it gives the ability to plan long breaks and more beneficial sleep periods much better.
Re dealing with the regulator and the pilots association. At the moment the longest planned flight deck time allowed is 8.5 hours in Qf Long Haul. Running Sunrise 4 pilot smashes that out of the park. What I propose keeps it reasonably close whilst still being reasonably cost effective especially vs 2 Cpts 2 F/Os.
There must always be at least one pilot with a command endorsement on the flight deck at any one time. At the moment a Cpt and F/O (Long Haul) in Qantas hold that endorsement. S/O does not. As such always need a Cpt or F/O on the flight deck.
Also one of the most challenging things about this flight will be the fatigue in the second half and maintaining concentration. The below roster would ensure that towards the end of the flight there is always one pilot who has been on the flight deck for a period longer than the other so someone is always in the “loop” rather than just having the crew both swap at the same time. Also towards the end of the flight the rest/change over periods are shorter so less risk of errors due to the fatigue of long stints at the controls involving controlled rest etc. Doing it this way ensures there is a fresh crew member is at the controls on average every 2.8 hours (with longer breaks at the start and shorter toward the end).
The last comment that I would make is for this to work everyone would need to know their role beforehand and turn up for work accordingly. More about that later.
The following assumes:
22hr flight time. 30 min taxi.
1 hr report. 0.5 hr stand down for 24 hr tour of duty. It can be pretty easily adjusted if required depending on the flight time. But in this example:
TOD 24 hrs
Off blocks 22.5hrs
Captain (obviously there for takeoff and landing) = C1
Take Off and Landing First Officer = F1
Cruise First Officer = F2
Second Officers = S1 & S2
Roster as follows:
C1 & F1
Taxi (20mins) and first 2:40hrs for total 3hrs in seat. (All times below are time in flight deck seat).
C1 or F1 (most tired goes off) & S1
4hrs
F2 & S1
3.5hrs
F2 & S2
3.5hrs
C1 or F1 who went on break first & S2
3.5hrs
C1 or F1 who went on break first & S1
0.5hrs
F2 & S1
1hr
F2 & S2
1-1.5hrs (F2) 1.5hrs (S2)
C1 & F1 One comes back before the other so both not swapping together at their discretion.
2-2.5hrs (C1) 2-2.5hrs (F1) including 10 minute taxi.
Total time in seat:
C1 9-9.5hrs
F1 9-9.5hrs
F2 9-9.5hrs
S1 9hrs
S2 8.5hrs
Longest break in order to get a normal sleep period:
C1: 11hrs or 13hrs depending on 1st or 2nd break taken.
F1: 11hrs or 13hrs depending on 1st or 2nd break taken.
F2: 7 hours at start. 4 hours in middle. More broken as not doing takeoff or landing. Doesn’t drink coffee before flight and knows to turn up to work ready to sleep.
S1: 7 hrs.
S2: 10.5 hrs. Also doesn’t drink coffee before the flight and know to turn up to work ready to sleep.
Total time off each approx at least 13 hrs.
For this to work the roles would need to be designated before the flight with a schedule written similar to what other ULR operators do. The Captain and FO should figure out before the flight who wants to go off first so they know how tired to be at the beginning of the duty. That way everyone knows how to plan their rest.
This is the only way I can see which Sunrise can be crewed. 4 pilot just has everyone in the seat too long with too many broken breaks especially with 1 Cpt 1 F/O and 2 S/Os. 5 crew is complicated but not impossible. Easy spreadsheet app for the iPad and could be adapted slightly on the day depending on flight and departure times. It ensures that all the crew have had someone else on duty for a period when they get on duty so someone is always in the loop and the take off and landing pilots both have a big stretch off to get a proper sleep like in a normal 24 hour period. Hopefully this would satisfy the regulator and the AIPA. Also in the event of a medical diversion there is better opportunities to extend and get still have adequate rest.
Lastly yes this would add slightly more weight needing 3 crew rest areas but as the holds will not have much more than pax bags in them there will be plenty of space considering the size of the jet so perhaps creative use of this space for a crew rest area which doesn’t add much more weight than a 2 crew rest could be devised.
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It doesn’t matter if there is 1 Capt or 4 Capts. Only one of them is the PIC for the whole flight. I doubt changing the makeup of the 4 crew is going to change the fatigue levels.
The crew should consist of a Capt + F/O operating and a Capt + F/O augmenting and should be rostered as such. The rolls are reversed on the return sector allowing the Augmenting crew of the first sector to be the operating of the second and vis versa. So different PIC for each individual sector. Upside being planning rest for the duty both prior to the pattern and during and also promotional opportunities, downside obviously will be recency issues and CRM with 2 Capt on the flight deck.
1 Capt, 2 FOs, 3 SOs, 4 individual crew bunks with one on the flight deck plus a crew toilet on the flight deck. Remember from getting into the shower at home to getting to a hotel in London will be near 27 hours.
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Untried, untested and without the science to support it Little Napoleon will shriek that it is the pilots who again need to make concessions, otherwise the one trick pony will bull and threaten.