So you need a new fleet Leigh?

[Rated De]

Originally Posted by dragon man

Don’t need to IMO they got that with the 787, so this time the same pay as the 787 and they will be happy I think.

When all you have is a hammer, every problem is a nail.

Crew costs are actually so irrelevant considering the capital expense. However, to equate crew costs to 'a robust business case' it serves individual conformation bias to suggest that the determining factor is pilot salary.
'Ultra long haul' on a 30% cost saving to the existing A380 contract is a marvellous own goal....for the pilots.

Qantas need a new fleet...

[blow.n.gasket]

Passed to me by a close confidant :
When you have a recently retired AIPA executive that has sprouted numerous times
“ We are a third tier of Qantas management “
you then know just how wasted your union dues are !

[Rated De]

Originally Posted by blow.n.gasket

Passed to me by a close confidant :
When you have a recently retired AIPA executive that has sprouted numerous times
“ We are a third tier of Qantas management “
you then know just how wasted your union dues are !

Precisely.

Qantas need a new fleet.

[Capt Colonial]

Originally Posted by dragon man

I’m hearing AIPA and Qantas are in discussions on a deal for the A350. I hope they do a better job this time and get the crew toilet and rest issues sorted before they agree to the money side of things.

Dragon Man, I doubt such necessities will eventuate on what I was just told!

Yes, I have a bad habit of drinking with Engineers! However as was reported by Mateusz Maszczynski – 21 March 2019 (PYOC.com) Qantas Mainline Engineering are confirming that the Jetstar B787-8 is coming to Qantas Mainline (Destined for a Repaint and Cabin Refurbishment) for Mainline Regional Operations.

That’s 11 hulls! Jetstar is to get the A321LR that Joyce pre-ordered (do we remember Red Q?) replacing all of Jetstar's B787-8 hulls and which will cover their regional operations however the word is that this will also gear-up Jetstar to be able to fly the A350-1000 from 2026!

So, with 14 ordered +11 from Jetstar that will give Qantas Mainline 25 B787 Hulls. Whether the A350-1000 will come to Qantas Mainline or are flown by Jetstar (Or yet another Qantas subsidiary) Pilots will depend on what may be the competitive new “Business Case’!.

[ZebraFlyer]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but as it stands in both the regulations and the QF LH EBA they are unable to roster duties as long as they want for Project Sunrise or whatever it’ll be called.

Why would AIPA and/or the pilot body accept a longer maximum tour of duty allowable? Aside from compensation commensurate with the insane duty time, who would want to go to work for for 22+ hours + transport from home/to hotel with the presumed drastic time zone changes to boot.. seems like hell on earth!

[Capt Colonial]

Originally Posted by ZebraFlyer

Correct me if I’m wrong, but as it stands in both the regulations and the QF LH EBA they are unable to roster duties as long as they want for Project Sunrise or whatever it’ll be called.

Why would AIPA and/or the pilot body accept a longer maximum tour of duty allowable? Aside from compensation commensurate with the insane duty time, who would want to go to work for 22+ hours + transport from home/to a hotel with the presumed drastic time zone changes to boot.. seems like hell on earth!

In the FWC (Fair Work Commission) allegedly Qantas Captain Duggan and Qantas Captain Woods advised the commission that under the NABS (North American Bidding System) 65 to 70 % of Pilots had a lifestyle choice (comparative to seniority) and 30 to 35% did not (Blank Line holders). As the Pilots on the B-787 are finding, Qantas scheduling's unique equation of mixing Blank Lines into PSN (Squirrel Cage) is not having good results in lifestyle and time at home.

So, it’s not about the flight time on ULHO (Ultra Long-Haul Operations) and it is all about your time-off at home in between such flights and the ability to have some discretion over what flights one does and when one does them.

So Yes, you are correct. I suspect that few Pilots really want to conduct such punishing duties (Hell on Earth ...Maybe?) however the facts are that Qantas wants to operate ULHO and someone must crew those flights. So, if Pilots accept that is the outcome then what they need to write is the equation of how this work is achieved.

That is the challenge for the Pilots and the various representative Pilot organisations, AIPA, AFAP and QPA in regards to the fundamental type and mix of Scheduling, Remuneration and Time-Off.

Challenging to say the least!

[thec172man]

Originally Posted by Capt Colonial

Dragon Man, I doubt such necessities will eventuate on what I was just told!

Yes, I have a bad habit of drinking with Engineers! However as was reported by Mateusz Maszczynski – 21 March 2019 (PYOC.com) Qantas Mainline Engineering are confirming that the Jetstar B787-8 is coming to Qantas Mainline (Destined for a Repaint and Cabin Refurbishment) for Mainline Regional Operations.

That’s 11 hulls! Jetstar is to get the A321LR that Joyce pre-ordered (do we remember Red Q?) replacing all of Jetstar's B787-8 hulls and which will cover their regional operations however the word is that this will also gear-up Jetstar to be able to fly the A350-1000 from 2026!

So, with 14 ordered +11 from Jetstar that will give Qantas Mainline 25 B787 Hulls. Whether the A350-1000 will come to Qantas Mainline or are flown by Jetstar (Or yet another Qantas subsidiary) Pilots will depend on what may be the competitive new “Business Case’!.

Mateusz Maszczynski from (PYOC.com), isn’t he some cabin crew guy with a blog that talks about cabin crew recruiting?

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

Originally Posted by Capt Colonial

Dragon Man, I doubt such necessities will eventuate on what I was just told!

Yes, I have a bad habit of drinking with Engineers! However as was reported by Mateusz Maszczynski – 21 March 2019 (PYOC.com) Qantas Mainline Engineering are confirming that the Jetstar B787-8 is coming to Qantas Mainline (Destined for a Repaint and Cabin Refurbishment) for Mainline Regional Operations.

That’s 11 hulls! Jetstar is to get the A321LR that Joyce pre-ordered (do we remember Red Q?) replacing all of Jetstar's B787-8 hulls and which will cover their regional operations however the word is that this will also gear-up Jetstar to be able to fly the A350-1000 from 2026!

So, with 14 ordered +11 from Jetstar that will give Qantas Mainline 25 B787 Hulls. Whether the A350-1000 will come to Qantas Mainline or are flown by Jetstar (Or yet another Qantas subsidiary) Pilots will depend on what may be the competitive new “Business Case’!.

The JQ A321LRs only have a range of approx 2500nm due to only 1 additional centre tank and a dense 232 pax config. Hence only the Bali flights are capable of being replaced. With new routes for the 787 being announced literally within the past fortnight (OOL-SEOUL) and around 50 787 S/Os being recruited into the JQ long haul operation this year I doubt there would be plans to give the 787s to QF. Don’t believe everything you read

[dr dre]

Originally Posted by Capt Colonial

However as was reported by Mateusz Maszczynski – 21 March 2019 (PYOC.com) Qantas Mainline Engineering are confirming that the Jetstar B787-8 is coming to Qantas Mainline (Destined for a Repaint and Cabin Refurbishment) for Mainline Regional Operations.

That website is a cabin crew gossip site. Hardly authoritative. Added to the fact in that post there’s no confirmation of anything by engineering, just repeating of a rumour from another Facebook gossip site from an anonymous source.

however the word is that this will also gear-up Jetstar to be able to fly the A350-1000 from 2026!

Since when is anything planned 7 years in advance?

Whether the A350-1000 will come to Qantas Mainline or are flown by Jetstar (Or yet another Qantas subsidiary) Pilots will depend on what may be the competitive new “Business Case’!.

Looks like it’s EBA time again....

[Global Aviator]

Who would want to go to work twice a month?

Ok yes this would only happen if you only flew Sunriserarma.

22 hours each way, 3 days off in port? 44 hours for 5/6 day tour (with 2 full crew?). By 2 is 88 hours for the month 12 days away. Ahhh ok slip in a few domestic sectors or a ??? Seriously though. Would not seniority/ unions push to only operate ULH if this was a good thing? Even a Sunriserama flight plus a PER/LHR slip would be 2 duties for the month.

Whilst Singapore flight and duty no doubt diff has anyone seen a current ULH roster? Most likely diff from yesteryear as the 340 was certainly less frames than the 350.

Or should you fight to be like EK where fury time in the bunk?

Or am I oversimplifying?

[ScepticalOptomist]

I think some would like a 5 day trip worth around 38hrs credit - do 4 of them in 8 weeks. 20 days at work out of 56.

Im not for or against yet - details of how they will be crewed / rostered / remunerated will be important.

[crosscutter]

Originally Posted by dr dre

Looks like it’s EBA time again....

Indeed.

Whether the A350-1000 will come to Qantas Mainline or are flown by Jetstar (Or yet another Qantas subsidiary) Pilots will depend on what may be the competitive new “Business Case’!.

It all sounds so obvious and simple yet if only that pesky legislation wouldn’t get in the way again. Qantas want pilots to have that fear. Reality though, QF can’t employ in one entity whilst making pilots in Mainline redundant. This means they would have to pull out of London and LA (A380 flights) because they’re not profitable (and prove it) and offer VR and/or retrench the juniors on the 787....and then at sometime later restart those routes with the A350 with the new lower cost entity.

So Jetstar, EFA, and whoever else can put in all the business cases they like to fly the A350. For Qantas, it’s far more complicated than that.

[Vindiesel]

I don't follow your logic. Why would they need to make anyone redundant?

[crosscutter]

Originally Posted by Vindiesel

I don't follow your logic. Why would they need to make anyone redundant?

If I said straight out QF won’t be setting up another operation to fly project sunrise people would say what about this, what about that.

I tried to to create a hypothetical scenario to prove how difficult it would be for QF to legally achieve a way for another entity to fly the A350. Simultaneously dropping A380 services and having another entity replace that flying with A350’s is nigh on impossible based on current legislation and crewing requirements.

I appreciate the ageing demographic of QF. We have seen in the past what happens when a fleet retires and is not replaced.

Look at the number of people out of the system training at the moment...look at the numbers coming in at the bottom every month. When/if the music stops and if there was no fleet replacement there will be a surplus. The same script will be followed as last time and look what happened then. Long service leave is not what it was, retirements will drop, and it makes no economic sense to retrench from the bottom (Korda Mentha logic not mine).

Mainline will get the Project Sunrise aircraft because the conditions agreed to will be within ballpark

[SandyPalms]

What does a JQ 787 captain get paid in comparison to a QF one? I understand the a320 and 737 comparison is fairly close.

There would have to be some financial incentive to go that way and I can’t see any upside for QF, as it would surely cost more than simply a few percent on wages. This isn’t 2004, and unless another Australian Airline goes broke in the next 12 months, they won’t have the same desperate for a job (that’s not a shot at the AN pilots, that’s just the way it was) pilot pool to choose from either.

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

JQ 787 base pay (base hours 75 per month) capt $228,927 FO $148,843, SO $82,414

As you can see, across all ranks the JQ 787 pilots get paid significantly less than their QF counterparts

Also worth noting that the agreement states that this pay is for ‘Wide Body single deck.’ So an A350 or 777x could be introduced without the need to renegotiate for a new type

[crosscutter]

I’m sure the A350’s in Jetstar colours will look as good as any other. Whether the required seat config and premium pricing requirement will suit the Jetstar business model is another question.

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

I think the hypothetical scenario is that they wouldn’t be in JQ colours but JQ crew operating QF flights. You’ve got network operating A320s in QF colours in the west, Jetconnect operating QF 737s on the Tasman... Don’t underestimate QF managements ability to do some dodgy sh#t in the endless pursuit to reduce costs.

[Rated De]

Originally Posted by crosscutter

I’m sure the A350’s in Jetstar colours will look as good as any other. Whether the required seat config and premium pricing requirement will suit the Jetstar business model is another question.

Precisely. It is of course contract season. Insert subsidiary.

At least one JQ CEO was shown the door for a flash of honesty regarding the long haul IR wet dreams of Little Napoleon et al. They failed to accept a reality in the Low Airfare space: It remains low airfares. Stretch the stage length and unit costs rise too. Unless an airline can grow revenues (increase prices) then operating margins decline. That they persist is more about ideology than economics.
There is no yield premium in JQ brand, their market niche is to stimulate leisure travel, thus they are forever demand elastic.

Of course, that won't stop the same old stories surfacing about JQ/ Network/Jetconnect etc taking over the 'flying'.

Qantas has not the slightest bit of interest doing it, execution risk is formidable. This is why they needed a narrative of 'terminal decline' last time to make the execution less risky.
Insiders know that it can't work, but of it they will still dream.
In the mean time.

Qantas need a new fleet.

[CurtainTwitcher]

Jetstar Aus/NZ Positions

Interestingly in another thread you post:

Originally Posted by ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE

Acording to the latest seniority list:

787 F/O approx 5 years from date of join.

A320 command currently around 6 years in Sydney.

Rough guides only of course as there are many variables, mainly how many extra airframes the A321LRs will result in.

Which brings up a very important point, there aren't any shortcuts in aviation. An East Coast widebody FO is running at 15+ years, a little more for a 737 command in mainline.

Jetstar are able to offer a lesser deal, as the time for promotion is much more rapid. You can go back to the original observation by the father of modern economics, Adam Smith in 1776 in the Wealth Of Nations for some guidance on these matters:

10.1.25 The probability that any particular person shall ever be qualified for
the employment to which he is educated, is very different in different occupations.
In the greater part of mechanic trades, success is almost certain; but very
uncertain in the liberal professions. Put your son apprentice to a shoemaker,
there is little doubt of his learning to make a pair of shoes: But send him
to study the law, it is at least twenty to one if ever he makes such proficiency
as will enable him to live by the business. In a perfectly fair lottery, those
who draw the prizes ought to gain all that is lost by those who draw the blanks.
In a profession where twenty fail for one that succeeds, that one ought to
gain all that should have been gained by the unsuccessful twenty. The
counsellor at law who, perhaps, at near forty years of age, begins to
make something by his profession, ought to receive the retribution, not only
of his own so tedious and expensive education, but of that of more than
twenty others who are never likely to make any thing by it.
How extravagant soever the fees of counsellors at law may sometimes
appear, their real retribution is never equal to this.

Compute in any particular place, what is likely to be annually gained, and what is likely
to be annually spent, by all the different workmen in any common trade, such as that
of shoemakers or weavers, and you will find that the former sum will generally exceed
the latter. But make the same computation with regard to all the counsellors and students
of law, in all the different inns of court, and you will find that their annual gains bear but a
very small proportion to their annual expence, even though you rate the former as high,
and the latter as low, as can well be done. The lottery of the law, therefore, is very far
from being a perfectly fair lottery; and that, as well as many other liberal and honourable
professions, is, in point of pecuniary gain, evidently under-recompenced.

What Smith is saying is that, all things being equal, the pay matches the circumstances. Many Lawyers train, most don't aren't successful (in his day), those that do are rewarded well. But overall, of all those that study law, there is a net loss of income as a whole. Other jobs are quicker an easier to learn, but the income received is less. In a nutshell, the greater the risk to success, the better the pay.

Six years to command at a lower rate of pay, rather than 15 years as an on better conditions as an SO, which would you choose? I don't think it is any big secret that all the Qantas group entities are losing pilots to mainline.

So arguments about differing rates of pay need to be filtered through the lens of time to promotion as an adjunct to pay. Some will choose quick promotion, for age or the ability to fly as a contractor, others better T&C, but accept a slower career path.

One thing that is assured, if QF could wave a magic want tomorrow, and have all mainline new joiners on JQ T&C at the current extended time for promotion, those on the hold file with any experience would reconsider opportunities elsewhere. They need to offer better T&C to attract, the instant they don't they will struggle to crew aircraft just like everyone else.

I had a group general manager boast to me that he was going to pay 1/3rd less for his NZ Turboprop operation prior to startup. I don't believe they had a single application once they put it to the market. As I said, there are no shortcuts in aviation. Airlines have milked there once off screw-over of the industry, now they are paying the price with a big shortage. Qantas mainline is insulated only while it has better T&C with some semblance of delayed career progression. Remove either of those, things will change.