Jetconnect ZK aircraft to now be VH registered
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The good example of where it is all going is an abundance of VQ/VP (Bermuda) registered aircraft in Europe. Unties the hands of employers in terms of sourcing the workforce.
There is or was an inter country licensing agreement between NZ and Aus which allowed either licensed pilot to fly the others aircraft
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And what’s it to do with Gissing?
This includes Eastern, Sunstate, Network, Jetconnect, and Cobham.
So announcements regarding Network and Jetconnect have everything to do with him.
DIVOSH!
One daily MEL-SIN and one daily SYD-SIN previously operated by A330 will be A380 from March next year.
As for Jetconnect Pilots, they should go to the bottom of the Q list as of today, they are then quarantined to their current position and base, and if they want to move elsewhere it’s only in accordance with seniority.
As for Jetconnect Pilots, they should go to the bottom of the Q list as of today, they are then quarantined to their current position and base, and if they want to move elsewhere it’s only in accordance with seniority.
And therefore so should Qlink/JQ/Network/EFA Pilots? Or no, because these are "mainline routes"?
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This has been coming for a while now, it's been no secret that the whole Jetconnect arrangement was on the chopping block. The inefficiency of the ZK 737 airframe utilisation is the main driver, I think. They want the airframes to fly domestically after a Tasman sector. Under current arrangements, they can't do it. Reason: Fair Work Act. The minute a Jetconnect pilot flies a domestic sector, they must be employed under Australian conditions (SHWA). It's taken them time to work it out because of it's legal and industrial complexity.
If I recall correctly, some years ago mainline pilots were flying ZK 737's for a period of 6 months or so. They were all issued validation letters to allow this (as required, as Rated De pointed out). This was only allowed as a short term arrangement. I'm sure the same could be arranged to allow NZ crew to do the opposite, but in the long term I would predict they would need an AUS licence and be employed under the SHWA with an NZ basing or whatever other deal is negotiated with AIPA.
Whether the current pilots can be absorbed into QF mainline would also be dependent upon a deal with AIPA. It's been done before, after the Ansett demise. Rated 737 pilots worked under contract on QF 737's for a fixed period then had the option to be employed full time and added into the seniority list. However, I don't think any of them were contracted or employed as Captains, only F/O.
So, I would assume that the status quo will continue (under letters of validation), and the long term solution will be the result of an industrial negotiation/agreement.
The good thing about this for pilots in general is that QF have realised that the dodgy arrangement that was introduced to save on unit pilot costs and increase industrial pressure is not actually saving anything on the bottom line. Hopefully that will be a long term industrial lesson for QF.
Here's hoping this only improves the pay and conditions for the NZ pilots, and also offers them good prospects for the future.
Pure speculation here, but the worst case scenario that I can predict for current NZ Captains, is that they might lose a stripe at some point if they wish to continue. For F/O's I don't predict any downside other than longer time to command, perhaps mitigated by the opportunity to fly mainline widebody while they wait.
If I recall correctly, some years ago mainline pilots were flying ZK 737's for a period of 6 months or so. They were all issued validation letters to allow this (as required, as Rated De pointed out). This was only allowed as a short term arrangement. I'm sure the same could be arranged to allow NZ crew to do the opposite, but in the long term I would predict they would need an AUS licence and be employed under the SHWA with an NZ basing or whatever other deal is negotiated with AIPA.
Whether the current pilots can be absorbed into QF mainline would also be dependent upon a deal with AIPA. It's been done before, after the Ansett demise. Rated 737 pilots worked under contract on QF 737's for a fixed period then had the option to be employed full time and added into the seniority list. However, I don't think any of them were contracted or employed as Captains, only F/O.
So, I would assume that the status quo will continue (under letters of validation), and the long term solution will be the result of an industrial negotiation/agreement.
The good thing about this for pilots in general is that QF have realised that the dodgy arrangement that was introduced to save on unit pilot costs and increase industrial pressure is not actually saving anything on the bottom line. Hopefully that will be a long term industrial lesson for QF.
Here's hoping this only improves the pay and conditions for the NZ pilots, and also offers them good prospects for the future.
Pure speculation here, but the worst case scenario that I can predict for current NZ Captains, is that they might lose a stripe at some point if they wish to continue. For F/O's I don't predict any downside other than longer time to command, perhaps mitigated by the opportunity to fly mainline widebody while they wait.
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Interesting post Derfred. Unfortunately Jetconnect pilots have been told since the original announcement today that there will be no change to terms/conditions & pay and no joining QF mainline seniority.
It'll be status quo but flying with VH registered aircraft. Be interesting to see if AIPA do have any influence in this. Spare a thought also for some of the other JC staff who may not survive these changes.
It'll be status quo but flying with VH registered aircraft. Be interesting to see if AIPA do have any influence in this. Spare a thought also for some of the other JC staff who may not survive these changes.
Last edited by Steve Zissou; 22nd Nov 2017 at 08:39. Reason: Stating th obvious
I would have thought it would mirror what Virgin did a few years ago ie Maintain the advantage of having crew based in NZ but lose the overheads of a separate AOC.
How did that work out for the NZ based Virgin pilots?
How did that work out for the NZ based Virgin pilots?
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No thoughts are to be spared for anybody unless they are a mainline pilot.
Serves every other non mainline pilot right for not having the patience to stay in GA earning nothing until qantas opened the employment door every few years or more. Shame on anyone that had no other choice than to take the only jobs that were on offer.
Serves every other non mainline pilot right for not having the patience to stay in GA earning nothing until qantas opened the employment door every few years or more. Shame on anyone that had no other choice than to take the only jobs that were on offer.
All this talk of Jetconnect pilots finding themselves on a Qantas seniority list on Australian T&Cs is a pipe dream. The preferred model already exists in the form of VH registered A320's and Dash 8s with orange stars on the tail flying around New Zealand now. The people flying these machines in NZ are operating under Australian AOCs. They are paid under local NZ conditions with no hope of easy transfer to their Australian based equivalent because the NZ operation is desperate enough for crew as it is. Surely the Jetconnect model will simply move to a version of this set up?
There is no connection between an aoc and an eba.
It has the potential to get untidy but there is no barrier to qf paying the nz guys exactly what they are paying them now to fly the vh tailed 73’s.
There is nothing from a (casa) regulatory perspective, once everyone is checked into the qf system (under the qf aoc), stopping a jetconnect first officer for example jumping into a jet with a qf skipper and doing a perth return (or vice versa).
The thing stopping that “operationally convenient” but industrially untidy behaviour is the eba.
Not saying it wont cause a huge ****fight because once the nz guys/gals are checked into the qf training and checking system they are for all intents and purposes qf pilots (from a licencing/regulatory perspective, not industrially)
It has the potential to get untidy but there is no barrier to qf paying the nz guys exactly what they are paying them now to fly the vh tailed 73’s.
There is nothing from a (casa) regulatory perspective, once everyone is checked into the qf system (under the qf aoc), stopping a jetconnect first officer for example jumping into a jet with a qf skipper and doing a perth return (or vice versa).
The thing stopping that “operationally convenient” but industrially untidy behaviour is the eba.
Not saying it wont cause a huge ****fight because once the nz guys/gals are checked into the qf training and checking system they are for all intents and purposes qf pilots (from a licencing/regulatory perspective, not industrially)
I think there’s still a lot of things to fall into place before anything happens. Note the email said ‘our preferred option’...this is far from set in stone.
The scenario you refer to is covered by ‘transfer of business’ legislation
Perhaps this adds weight to the argument that Jetconnect is here purely to avoid paying Australian terms and conditions, and maybe this could be revisited.
The scenario you refer to is covered by ‘transfer of business’ legislation
Perhaps this adds weight to the argument that Jetconnect is here purely to avoid paying Australian terms and conditions, and maybe this could be revisited.
Last edited by goodonyamate; 22nd Nov 2017 at 17:13.
You can look to Jetstar to see how this may pan out.
All Jetstar Aust/ NZ flying are VH tails. Pilots are EBA or NZ CEA. The Tasman and NZ flying is done by a mix of both contracts, but NZ CEA pilots are not allowed to fly (or even train) domestically in Australia. At the moment this is by agreement only.
See no reason why the QF situation would not use this as a template
All Jetstar Aust/ NZ flying are VH tails. Pilots are EBA or NZ CEA. The Tasman and NZ flying is done by a mix of both contracts, but NZ CEA pilots are not allowed to fly (or even train) domestically in Australia. At the moment this is by agreement only.
See no reason why the QF situation would not use this as a template
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The difference here between the Jetstar NZ model is that JQ NZ crew also do domestic NZ flying not just the Tasman.
With JetConnect crew flying only a very limited trans Tasman network surely there will be huge efficiency gains if those crew can do domestic sectors or wider international ops too?
With JetConnect crew flying only a very limited trans Tasman network surely there will be huge efficiency gains if those crew can do domestic sectors or wider international ops too?
The company can’t crew the 737 fleet properly at the moment. Any talk of some sort of shonky seniority list and watch what happens to engagement once again. Talking about what 80 pilots at best. My heart bleeds.
And in case you’ve all forgotten
https://youtu.be/68f_JdPmvlM
Last edited by Troo believer; 22nd Nov 2017 at 22:32.
You have got to be joking. Jetconnect pilots are contractors which applied knowing that they had a fast path to command wearing a Qantas uniform. If they want mainline T&C apply to mainline meeting the minimum standards. Ask a Jetstar, QLink or Cobham pilot how they got into mainline?
The company can’t crew the 737 fleet properly at the moment. Any talk of some sort of shonky seniority list and watch what happens to engagement once again. Talking about what 80 pilots at best. My heart bleeds.
And in case you’ve all forgotten
https://youtu.be/68f_JdPmvlM
The company can’t crew the 737 fleet properly at the moment. Any talk of some sort of shonky seniority list and watch what happens to engagement once again. Talking about what 80 pilots at best. My heart bleeds.
And in case you’ve all forgotten
https://youtu.be/68f_JdPmvlM
The reality that seems to get lost on people like you, is that Qantas has created many competing streams of employment that employ sporadically and rarely open the door to the mothership. Pilots have had to be content with what is on offer at the time in order to provide for their families. What a wonderful world it would be if it was only Qantas and Virgin and we could work for either one as opposed to (insert ****ty shell/contractor/b scale).
It's your attitude towards your peers, yes peers, that makes the adversarial IR strategies work.
This is the point that I am making, people don't choose to go to the ****ty jobs, they take the opportunities that are available. The difference between the real Qantas pilots and the other scum is that the real pilots were given an opportunity to attempt and pass that process.
Maybe because he passed the Pysch Test/Screening/Sim Ride/Interview and they didn't.
Seriously, some legacy pilots have their heads stuffed so far up their asses that they’ve lost sight of the real world of Aviation outside their own little bubbles... some of them never knew to begin with.
If you can fly a Jet for Jetconnect, Virgin, J* etc you can fly one for QANTAS, Air New Zealand or any other Legacy carrier... all that stands in the way is the red tape.
As pilots, we have no control over who hires when, and after several redundancies I’ll be damned if I was going to sit in the LHS of a turbo-prop in NZ for $50k any longer than I had too when the Aussies in NZ were offering nearly double that to fly a jet while I waited for Air NZ to hire.
Bitch and moan all you like, but it wasn’t your wife and kids being asked to put their lives on hold while daddy “stood on his morals” and turned down promotional opportunities because it might offend someone on the other side of the ditch.
I left Jetconnect a number of years ago, but regardless of the outcome here, none of their pilots deserve some of the vitriol that gets spewed at them on these forums.
Don’t hate the players, hate the game.
