QFA7 dumping gas off YSSY, now
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QFA7 dumping gas off YSSY, now
QFA7 (A390) appears to be dumping/burning fuel off Sydney right now.
https://www.flightradar24.com/QFA7/e587a97
https://www.flightradar24.com/QFA7/e587a97
It would be interesting to break down the cost of an event like this.
I don't know the answer to your question but imagine the cost of putting the pax in hotels, transporting them to and from the hotels, and dealing with the pax in Dallas that were due to jump on that airframe in 18hours time , would be even greater than the wasted gas.
Anyone have any experience with the costs involved when this sort of thing happens? Do the Airlines even bother analysing each event and costing it?
I don't know the answer to your question but imagine the cost of putting the pax in hotels, transporting them to and from the hotels, and dealing with the pax in Dallas that were due to jump on that airframe in 18hours time , would be even greater than the wasted gas.
Anyone have any experience with the costs involved when this sort of thing happens? Do the Airlines even bother analysing each event and costing it?
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It would be interesting to break down the cost of an event like this.
I don't know the answer to your question but imagine the cost of putting the pax in hotels, transporting them to and from the hotels, and dealing with the pax in Dallas that were due to jump on that airframe in 18hours time , would be even greater than the wasted gas.
Anyone have any experience with the costs involved when this sort of thing happens? Do the Airlines even bother analysing each event and costing it?
I don't know the answer to your question but imagine the cost of putting the pax in hotels, transporting them to and from the hotels, and dealing with the pax in Dallas that were due to jump on that airframe in 18hours time , would be even greater than the wasted gas.
Anyone have any experience with the costs involved when this sort of thing happens? Do the Airlines even bother analysing each event and costing it?
I'd wouldn't be blown away if it's a million dollar event once all aspects are taken into account
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The aircraft is certified for this - preferred auto land - and a quick analysis by Airbus through the aircraft systems and would soon be released back into service if nothing untoward found.
Originally Posted by framer
It would be interesting to break down the cost of an event like this.
1) Fuel: both the used and the dumped portions. Assuming near MTOW take-off around 175 tons will have been used up to get down to MLAW, some of it (~15-20) burned, the balance dumped. At the current price of ~$500 per metric ton, the fuel will have cost ~$ 85-90k
2) Because of the Australian quarantine laws any food (even untouched) coming off an arriving international flight must be incinerated. Knowing the rather thick-headed approach of Oz authorities on this matter, I assume this was enforced in this case too (does not apply to bottled drinks with unbroken seal, those can be re-used). For such a long flight there is at least $20 worth of catering on board per pax (averaged accross classes), for ~350 pax that is $7k
3) Rough rule of thumb is that with financing included monthly ownership cost is around 1% of asset acquisition cost. Don't have the details but as launch customer QF would have received the 380s for a big discount, lets say $150 million each. That translates into 1.5/month. Assuming an average daily utilisation of around 18 hours, that comes to to roughly $3k per hour for the privilege of a sight-seeing flight over the pacific. The flight took 2.5 hours (FR24) so that is another $7.5k
4) Big ticket maintenance items like engines and landing gear tick on the cycle, not the hour. This flight used up an available cycle before shop visit for all, I am not privy to QF figures but based on my experience I'd dare guess around $3000 per engine and another $1000 per main gear strut, so that is another $16k
5) Sydney airport is not run as a charity, this flight will have incurred the same landing and terminal navigation charges as any other, though this may have been counted as a technical rather than a commercial landing, in which case a 50% discount applies. Still, that will be around $10k for a 380.
6) Crew costs. Both filght and cabin crew will have used up 2.5 hours of their annual 900 limit. Again without knowing actual salaries I'd dare guess that total annual salaries for all crew on board (together with all taxes and employer contrbutions) would reach $1million, rounded that is another $3k. Add to that the need to position this crew (or another) to Dallas as they will be missing for a future return leg, and we're talking at least another $5k.
7) Accommodating passengers. Assuming that a replacement aircraft could be organised this "only" means a night's hotel plus meals. Given that airlines have contracts with hotels for such eventualities this would not be at rack rates, but probably at around $50-60 per passenger (I'm sure there are hotels on both ends who base their business on such flight disruptions. At big airports there is always a cancelled or delayed flight every other day. S**t hits the fan when due to weather ALL flights are delayed and everything fills up). Assume 700 pax at the higher rate, that will be $42k.
8) Rerouting passengers on another airline. This is the one that hurts the most, as in this case the collected revenues need to be forfeited. Assuming that only 200 of the 700 needed to be re-routed, and an average fare of $1k per direction, that is still $200k lost revenue (but probably more, as the time sensitive F & C customers will need to be re-accommodated in a higher proportion.)
Summing it up, IF the flight will be able to depart with a delay, the direct cost of this little glitch will be in the magnitude of $150k (135 listed above, plus at least another 15 I did not think of), rising to 200k if passangers need to be accommodated for the duration of the delay, PLUS at least another 200k in lost revenues if a part of the pax need re-routing on other airlines.
Edit:Just saw Wally777's post that landing may have been above MLAW, in that case of course the corresponding fuel cost figures are reduced.
Last edited by andrasz; 4th Aug 2017 at 08:38.
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Slight correction on the rerouting cost: QF can reroute the pax onto other IATA OAL without any additional cost, the OAL gets the value associated to the ticket coupon only. So it's 'just' lost revenue.
And I doubt qf carries 700 pax on an A380 my guess max 450-500.
And I doubt qf carries 700 pax on an A380 my guess max 450-500.
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Olivier, that was then. There is no obligation for other IATA members, or any other airline, to accept QF's passengers for the face value of the ticket. No doubt QF has agreements in place in anticipation of these events - they could end up paying more, or perhaps even less, than the punter paid it.
And they do need to have space on their flights.
And they do need to have space on their flights.
Oliver, the figure I quoted was the lost revenue only, with no additional cost. ExXB is correct, aside oneworld partners who will, other arlines need not accept face value, however I presume most reroutings will have been done with oW partners CX/JL/AA.
The 700 pax is twice the capacity, it is not only SYD departing passengers who will need to be accomodated or re-routed, but also the passengers on the DFW end. So I assumed a load of 350 each way.
The 700 pax is twice the capacity, it is not only SYD departing passengers who will need to be accomodated or re-routed, but also the passengers on the DFW end. So I assumed a load of 350 each way.
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Originally Posted by Wally777
and a quick analysis by Airbus through the aircraft systems and would soon be released back into service if nothing untoward found
Summing it up, IF the flight will be able to depart with a delay, the direct cost of this little glitch will be in the magnitude of $150k (135 listed above, plus at least another 15 I did not think of), rising to 200k if passangers need to be accommodated for the duration of the delay, PLUS at least another 200k in lost revenues if a part of the pax need re-routing on other airlines.
Edit:Just saw Wally777's post that landing may have been above MLAW, in that case of course the corresponding fuel cost figures are reduced.
The dumped fuel is just the tip of the iceberg. Essentially all the costs related to this flight are 'wasted' as this flight will have generated no revenues. (All figures US$)
1) Fuel: both the used and the dumped portions. Assuming near MTOW take-off around 175 tons will have been used up to get down to MLAW, some of it (~15-20) burned, the balance dumped. At the current price of ~$500 per metric ton, the fuel will have cost ~$ 85-90k
2) Because of the Australian quarantine laws any food (even untouched) coming off an arriving international flight must be incinerated. Knowing the rather thick-headed approach of Oz authorities on this matter, I assume this was enforced in this case too (does not apply to bottled drinks with unbroken seal, those can be re-used). For such a long flight there is at least $20 worth of catering on board per pax (averaged accross classes), for ~350 pax that is $7k
3) Rough rule of thumb is that with financing included monthly ownership cost is around 1% of asset acquisition cost. Don't have the details but as launch customer QF would have received the 380s for a big discount, lets say $150 million each. That translates into 1.5/month. Assuming an average daily utilisation of around 18 hours, that comes to to roughly $3k per hour for the privilege of a sight-seeing flight over the pacific. The flight took 2.5 hours (FR24) so that is another $7.5k
4) Big ticket maintenance items like engines and landing gear tick on the cycle, not the hour. This flight used up an available cycle before shop visit for all, I am not privy to QF figures but based on my experience I'd dare guess around $3000 per engine and another $1000 per main gear strut, so that is another $16k
5) Sydney airport is not run as a charity, this flight will have incurred the same landing and terminal navigation charges as any other, though this may have been counted as a technical rather than a commercial landing, in which case a 50% discount applies. Still, that will be around $10k for a 380.
6) Crew costs. Both filght and cabin crew will have used up 2.5 hours of their annual 900 limit. Again without knowing actual salaries I'd dare guess that total annual salaries for all crew on board (together with all taxes and employer contrbutions) would reach $1million, rounded that is another $3k. Add to that the need to position this crew (or another) to Dallas as they will be missing for a future return leg, and we're talking at least another $5k.
7) Accommodating passengers. Assuming that a replacement aircraft could be organised this "only" means a night's hotel plus meals. Given that airlines have contracts with hotels for such eventualities this would not be at rack rates, but probably at around $50-60 per passenger (I'm sure there are hotels on both ends who base their business on such flight disruptions. At big airports there is always a cancelled or delayed flight every other day. S**t hits the fan when due to weather ALL flights are delayed and everything fills up). Assume 700 pax at the higher rate, that will be $42k.
8) Rerouting passengers on another airline. This is the one that hurts the most, as in this case the collected revenues need to be forfeited. Assuming that only 200 of the 700 needed to be re-routed, and an average fare of $1k per direction, that is still $200k lost revenue (but probably more, as the time sensitive F & C customers will need to be re-accommodated in a higher proportion.)
Summing it up, IF the flight will be able to depart with a delay, the direct cost of this little glitch will be in the magnitude of $150k (135 listed above, plus at least another 15 I did not think of), rising to 200k if passangers need to be accommodated for the duration of the delay, PLUS at least another 200k in lost revenues if a part of the pax need re-routing on other airlines.
Edit:Just saw Wally777's post that landing may have been above MLAW, in that case of course the corresponding fuel cost figures are reduced.
1) Fuel: both the used and the dumped portions. Assuming near MTOW take-off around 175 tons will have been used up to get down to MLAW, some of it (~15-20) burned, the balance dumped. At the current price of ~$500 per metric ton, the fuel will have cost ~$ 85-90k
2) Because of the Australian quarantine laws any food (even untouched) coming off an arriving international flight must be incinerated. Knowing the rather thick-headed approach of Oz authorities on this matter, I assume this was enforced in this case too (does not apply to bottled drinks with unbroken seal, those can be re-used). For such a long flight there is at least $20 worth of catering on board per pax (averaged accross classes), for ~350 pax that is $7k
3) Rough rule of thumb is that with financing included monthly ownership cost is around 1% of asset acquisition cost. Don't have the details but as launch customer QF would have received the 380s for a big discount, lets say $150 million each. That translates into 1.5/month. Assuming an average daily utilisation of around 18 hours, that comes to to roughly $3k per hour for the privilege of a sight-seeing flight over the pacific. The flight took 2.5 hours (FR24) so that is another $7.5k
4) Big ticket maintenance items like engines and landing gear tick on the cycle, not the hour. This flight used up an available cycle before shop visit for all, I am not privy to QF figures but based on my experience I'd dare guess around $3000 per engine and another $1000 per main gear strut, so that is another $16k
5) Sydney airport is not run as a charity, this flight will have incurred the same landing and terminal navigation charges as any other, though this may have been counted as a technical rather than a commercial landing, in which case a 50% discount applies. Still, that will be around $10k for a 380.
6) Crew costs. Both filght and cabin crew will have used up 2.5 hours of their annual 900 limit. Again without knowing actual salaries I'd dare guess that total annual salaries for all crew on board (together with all taxes and employer contrbutions) would reach $1million, rounded that is another $3k. Add to that the need to position this crew (or another) to Dallas as they will be missing for a future return leg, and we're talking at least another $5k.
7) Accommodating passengers. Assuming that a replacement aircraft could be organised this "only" means a night's hotel plus meals. Given that airlines have contracts with hotels for such eventualities this would not be at rack rates, but probably at around $50-60 per passenger (I'm sure there are hotels on both ends who base their business on such flight disruptions. At big airports there is always a cancelled or delayed flight every other day. S**t hits the fan when due to weather ALL flights are delayed and everything fills up). Assume 700 pax at the higher rate, that will be $42k.
8) Rerouting passengers on another airline. This is the one that hurts the most, as in this case the collected revenues need to be forfeited. Assuming that only 200 of the 700 needed to be re-routed, and an average fare of $1k per direction, that is still $200k lost revenue (but probably more, as the time sensitive F & C customers will need to be re-accommodated in a higher proportion.)
Summing it up, IF the flight will be able to depart with a delay, the direct cost of this little glitch will be in the magnitude of $150k (135 listed above, plus at least another 15 I did not think of), rising to 200k if passangers need to be accommodated for the duration of the delay, PLUS at least another 200k in lost revenues if a part of the pax need re-routing on other airlines.
Edit:Just saw Wally777's post that landing may have been above MLAW, in that case of course the corresponding fuel cost figures are reduced.
It's more likely the food would be destroyed if it were coming off the aeroplane if the aeroplane was staying... I can't remember whether QF's A380s use ATLAS or KSSU but I know there are incompatibilities in galley standards across their fleet which would be another reason it could be uneconomical to reload the food, re-cool it, etc.
If it was incinerated that would basically be because the food was taken to the offload section of the catering centre and in the same environment as other food off international flights, hence the destruction.
Last edited by AerialPerspective; 5th Aug 2017 at 14:31. Reason: add
Olivier, that was then. There is no obligation for other IATA members, or any other airline, to accept QF's passengers for the face value of the ticket. No doubt QF has agreements in place in anticipation of these events - they could end up paying more, or perhaps even less, than the punter paid it.
And they do need to have space on their flights.
And they do need to have space on their flights.
On the point of transfer of pax, if it's an FIM and the original fare basis is entered on the FIM (Flight Interruption Manifest) then the delivering carrier still keeps a percentage of the ticket value so the receiving carrier never gets the full whack.
In the old days of paper coupons they were transferred at 'face value' which meant the value of the segment in the fare construction, usually in NUC (Neutral Units of Currency - not sure what they're called now) but the only difference with electronic coupons is that they are digital records, they still have all the elements of a paper coupon when displayed.
Interline agreements can be entered into which consist of a standard rate for exchange of pax and no, other airlines are not obligated to take QF's pax but they are obligated to take them under the standard terms if they accept them - they can't say for instance "Yes, we'll take your pax but we want full J class prevailing fare value for them".
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OAL is an abbreviation for Other Air Line. Typically used by bean counters when transferring charges after a passenger transfer. Used to see it on the route cost analysis reports from time to time and asked the same question.
