Terrorist plot thwarted?
Would ISIS exist without violent Muslim dogma? No chance.
Would ISIS exist without America? In its identical state maybe not. But Islamic doctrine compels all Muslims to continue the struggle towards a world ruled by sharia law by whatever means available. So while ISIS might not exist in its present form, something else would. Using the same tried and true methodology of blaming somebody else while playing the role of victim.
Would ISIS exist without America? In its identical state maybe not. But Islamic doctrine compels all Muslims to continue the struggle towards a world ruled by sharia law by whatever means available. So while ISIS might not exist in its present form, something else would. Using the same tried and true methodology of blaming somebody else while playing the role of victim.
Im not contending anything except the invasion by us and the seppos was poorly handled and was the catalyst for isis. Major power vacuum, disbanded troops and cops well funded by the usual arabian suspects and.... t
Only to the extent that they were buoyed by popular uprising in the Middle East and a power vacuum. Whereas in the past the likes of Saddam would have put down such a threat to his power with matching levels of atrocity.
It's a bit like blaming the allies for the rise of Nazism, by removing the Wilhelm aristocracy (dictatorship) and instilling the Weimar Republic.
It's a bit like blaming the allies for the rise of Nazism, by removing the Wilhelm aristocracy (dictatorship) and instilling the Weimar Republic.
Notice the americans played differently with the Germans and japanese afterwards and look at em now
quite the success story
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Im not contending anything except the invasion by us and the seppos was poorly handled and was the catalyst for isis. Major power vacuum, disbanded troops and cops well funded by the usual arabian suspects and.... t
Transformers!
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Notice the americans played differently with the Germans and japanese afterwards and look at em now quite the success story
Forget all this talk of whether or not western foreign policy or religion caused extremism.
It is highly hypocritical to claim the west is fighting radicals whilst supporting and selling billions of dollars worth of weapons to the most severe wahabbist regimes on the planet, prime being Saudi Arabia. Maybe stop supporting them and start backing the actual Muslims who are fighting the Islamists in the region (Iran and Syria).
Maybe then we can have a lesser threat to our workplaces (and after mandating full screening for all airside workers as well).
It is highly hypocritical to claim the west is fighting radicals whilst supporting and selling billions of dollars worth of weapons to the most severe wahabbist regimes on the planet, prime being Saudi Arabia. Maybe stop supporting them and start backing the actual Muslims who are fighting the Islamists in the region (Iran and Syria).
Maybe then we can have a lesser threat to our workplaces (and after mandating full screening for all airside workers as well).
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Forget all this talk of whether or not western foreign policy or religion caused extremism.
It is highly hypocritical to claim the west is fighting radicals whilst supporting and selling billions of dollars worth of weapons to the most severe wahabbist regimes on the planet, prime being Saudi Arabia. Maybe stop supporting them and start backing the actual Muslims who are fighting the Islamists in the region (Iran and Syria).
Maybe then we can have a lesser threat to our workplaces (and after mandating full screening for all airside workers as well).
It is highly hypocritical to claim the west is fighting radicals whilst supporting and selling billions of dollars worth of weapons to the most severe wahabbist regimes on the planet, prime being Saudi Arabia. Maybe stop supporting them and start backing the actual Muslims who are fighting the Islamists in the region (Iran and Syria).
Maybe then we can have a lesser threat to our workplaces (and after mandating full screening for all airside workers as well).
If the west were serious about stopping terrorism we would severely curtail movement from Islamic countries,use racial profiling for security screening and deport the families of terrorists.
Last edited by psycho joe; 6th Aug 2017 at 02:10.
Fighting American hypocracy with hypocracy. (The enemy of my enemy is my friend.) both Iran and Syria are dictatorships, Syria gasses their own people, Iran wants nukes to destroy the "great satan" (U.S) and they are both driven to destroy Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East.
If the west were serious about stopping terrorism we would severely curtail movement from Islamic countries,use racial profiling for security screening and deport the families of terrorists.
If the west were serious about stopping terrorism we would severely curtail movement from Islamic countries,use racial profiling for security screening and deport the families of terrorists.
The improvised homemade device - which was fashioned out of a meat mincer - was stopped from being taken on the flight when the passenger carrying it was told his bag was too heavy to be stored in the overhead cabin, The Sydney Morning Herald reported.
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Sounds like a perfect neocon fantasy. Without turning this into a political discussion thread, there's plenty of doubt who was responsible for gas attacks in Syria (and is that different to western countries using agent orange and white phosphorus or even conventional bombs?), Iran's nuclear ambitions were never certain and have been curtailed via an agreement that most neocons hated anyway (and they get away with calling the Americans the great satan considering what US foreign policy towards Iran in the 20th century), and Israel the only democracy? Maybe but a lot of people don't like their actions towards the Palestinians, and that's certainly a debate that is beyond this thread.
Assad has form on using chlorine gas on his own people in the past and stands to gain most by continuing that policy, it quacks like a duck. This is different to conventional weapons in so far as it is specifically outlawed. The mode of death is from inland drowning caused by severe blistering of the lungs and often causes blindness to those unfortunate enough to survive. This is entirely different to agent orange, as agent orange was a defoliant. Noone tries to commit a genocide with weed killer.
Not sure what you're specifically referring to in regard to US foreign policy toward Iran, other than the fact that the U.K. and the US backed the Shah who was modernising the Iranian economy, he was hated by the hard liners for instilling western liberal values including women's freedom. There are pictures taken after the removal of the Shah showing women protesting in the streets against being forced to cover themselves in public, you don't see that anymore. The Iranian dictatorship hates western values as they are antithetical to Muslim values. The US is viewed as an easy target as an example of a country espousing these western values.
And Israel. Palestine was Israeli long before Islam even existed. Iran and other Muslim states hate Israel because the Koran specifically singles out Jews for destruction. Mohammed demands the beheading of Jews in retaliation for Jewish scholars refusing to recognise him as a prophet in the seventh century. Everything else is just a means to an end, a justification for that destruction.
Last edited by psycho joe; 6th Aug 2017 at 04:14.
lookleft: "real terrorists?" not really. a bomb in a meat mincer in carry on baggage that was too heavy?? Where is the alleged IED now? What was the explosive? C4? TNT? how was that going to get through security? Two of the four arrested are released. A hydrogen sulphide bomb? now that is school chemistry lab stuff. couldn't deliver an IED, how were they going to distribute h2s effectively?
...And they were caught after a heads up from the british police who were monitoring their contact, not by us. sounds like keystone cops chasing abbott and costello.
what worries me as i said, are the smart guys with military training who use covert communications (not the internet) are well resourced and well trained in remainig undetected. if this pair were like that they would not have been taken alive and would have tried to take plenty of us with them. as far as i can tell Australian terrorism has been inexperienced home grown nutters and self radicalisers, not the A team. let's hope that it stays that way.
...And they were caught after a heads up from the british police who were monitoring their contact, not by us. sounds like keystone cops chasing abbott and costello.
what worries me as i said, are the smart guys with military training who use covert communications (not the internet) are well resourced and well trained in remainig undetected. if this pair were like that they would not have been taken alive and would have tried to take plenty of us with them. as far as i can tell Australian terrorism has been inexperienced home grown nutters and self radicalisers, not the A team. let's hope that it stays that way.
So our vast and expensive security service network prevented nothing.
They were thwarted by their own incompetence, an over weight bag.
Priceless.
They were thwarted by their own incompetence, an over weight bag.
Priceless.
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No fantasy.
Assad has form on using chlorine gas on his own people in the past and stands to gain most by continuing that policy, it quacks like a duck. This is different to conventional weapons in so far as it is specifically outlawed. The mode of death is from inland drowning caused by severe blistering of the lungs and often causes blindness to those unfortunate enough to survive. This is entirely different to agent orange, as agent orange was a defoliant. Noone tries to commit a genocide with weed killer.
Not sure what you're specifically referring to in regard to US foreign policy toward Iran, other than the fact that the U.K. and the US backed the Shah who was modernising the Iranian economy, he was hated by the hard liners for instilling western liberal values including women's freedom. There are pictures taken after the removal of the Shah showing women protesting in the streets against being forced to cover themselves in public, you don't see that anymore. The Iranian dictatorship hates western values as they are antithetical to Muslim values. The US is viewed as an easy target as an example of a country espousing these western values.
And Israel. Palestine was Israeli long before Islam even existed. Iran and other Muslim states hate Israel because the Koran specifically singles out Jews for destruction. Mohammed demands the beheading of Jews in retaliation for Jewish scholars refusing to recognise him as a prophet in the seventh century. Everything else is just a means to an end, a justification for that destruction.
Assad has form on using chlorine gas on his own people in the past and stands to gain most by continuing that policy, it quacks like a duck. This is different to conventional weapons in so far as it is specifically outlawed. The mode of death is from inland drowning caused by severe blistering of the lungs and often causes blindness to those unfortunate enough to survive. This is entirely different to agent orange, as agent orange was a defoliant. Noone tries to commit a genocide with weed killer.
Not sure what you're specifically referring to in regard to US foreign policy toward Iran, other than the fact that the U.K. and the US backed the Shah who was modernising the Iranian economy, he was hated by the hard liners for instilling western liberal values including women's freedom. There are pictures taken after the removal of the Shah showing women protesting in the streets against being forced to cover themselves in public, you don't see that anymore. The Iranian dictatorship hates western values as they are antithetical to Muslim values. The US is viewed as an easy target as an example of a country espousing these western values.
And Israel. Palestine was Israeli long before Islam even existed. Iran and other Muslim states hate Israel because the Koran specifically singles out Jews for destruction. Mohammed demands the beheading of Jews in retaliation for Jewish scholars refusing to recognise him as a prophet in the seventh century. Everything else is just a means to an end, a justification for that destruction.
Anyway what is happening in the Middle East is no different than what has happened throughout history. When the hell has it even been a stable region?
Not really. Germany and Japan were decimated to an unprecedented level by the end of ww2. Those countries turned around when the population gave up their idiological faith in their dictators and associated pseudo-religious political movements. They threw away their copies of Mein Kampf and realised that the emperor was just a mortal dork like everyone else. So too, only when Muslims put aside their instruction manuals on subjugation and murder will there be hope.
It's a well known fact that after the Luftwaffe were ordered to start using the Nazi Salute toward the end of the war, they were standing next to their aircraft out of earshot of their leaders, raising their hands and shouting at each other "The sh-t in Germany is now piled this high" so I think the German people or a sizeable proportion were well and truly over Mr Hitler by the end of the war. I dare say the Japanese had enough of firebombing and being irradiated too.
The truth about the Middle East is that it was first stuffed up by the British with their damn colonial nonsense, then leaving and arbitrarily dividing the area up in to countries knowing nothing about the culture, religion and subtle differences and arrogantly insisting they were right, followed by both the US and Britain interfering in the region constantly, including the 1953 overthrow of the democratically elected and immensely popular government of Mossadeq, installing and supporting the murderous Shah which led Iran from a country that was very pro-US and pro-West to one that despises the West in many ways... the Persian people didn't just wake up one morning and decide to hate the US, these things take years of simmering under the surface.
Let's say Japan had invaded Australia in WWII and had got enough of a foothold and we had then been 'liberated' by the US who set up a new government and occupied the country for years, stole our resources and aribtrarily divided the country into different independent States - don't think for one minute we wouldn't have an undercurrent of hatred that would lash out at some point. Who is to say, we wouldn't have used passages in the Bible that referred to murdering all the people of the village if they not believe in god if we perceived their 'gods' to be heathen???
Top it off with the people of a region being treated or looked upon by the West for years as lesser peoples in the eyes of their colonising powers and the theft of priceless artifacts and you pretty much have the reason the region is how it is now.
Islam and the Middle East and Egypt were for centuries, centres of science and study. The numerals we use today and the concept of zero didn't exist until we adopted it from Arabic. A region like that didn't go rogue because it seemed like a good idea.
Last edited by AerialPerspective; 6th Aug 2017 at 21:56. Reason: add
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Oh rubbish, Japan being an occupied country from one end to the other under virtual Marshall Law administered by the Allies and the Russians and Americans and British taking control of Germany perhaps had just a little to do with the Germans 'throwing away their copies of Mien Kampf... not to mention Allied Commanders insisting on tours of the concentration camps by ordinary Germans so they could see and smell up close what had been done in their name(s).
It's a well known fact that after the Luftwaffe were ordered to start using the Nazi Salute toward the end of the war, they were standing next to their aircraft out of earshot of their leaders, raising their hands and shouting at each other "The sh-t in Germany is now piled this high" so I think the German people or a sizeable proportion were well and truly over Mr Hitler by the end of the war. I dare say the Japanese had enough of firebombing and being irradiated too.
The truth about the Middle East is that it was first stuffed up by the British with their damn colonial nonsense, then leaving and arbitrarily dividing the area up in to countries knowing nothing about the culture, religion and subtle differences and arrogantly insisting they were right, followed by both the US and Britain interfering in the region constantly, including the 1953 overthrow of the democratically elected and immensely popular government of Mossadeq, installing and supporting the murderous Shah which led Iran from a country that was very pro-US and pro-West to one that despises the West in many ways... the Persian people didn't just wake up one morning and decide to hate the US, these things take years of simmering under the surface.
Let's say Japan had invaded Australia in WWII and had got enough of a foothold and we had then been 'liberated' by the US who set up a new government and occupied the country for years, stole our resources and aribtrarily divided the country into different independent States - don't think for one minute we wouldn't have an undercurrent of hatred that would lash out at some point. Who is to say, we wouldn't have used passages in the Bible that referred to murdering all the people of the village if they not believe in god if we perceived their 'gods' to be heathen???
Top it off with the people of a region being treated or looked upon by the West for years as lesser peoples in the eyes of their colonising powers and the theft of priceless artifacts and you pretty much have the reason the region is how it is now.
Islam and the Middle East and Egypt were for centuries, centres of science and study. The numerals we use today and the concept of zero didn't exist until we adopted it from Arabic. A region like that didn't go rogue because it seemed like a good idea.
It's a well known fact that after the Luftwaffe were ordered to start using the Nazi Salute toward the end of the war, they were standing next to their aircraft out of earshot of their leaders, raising their hands and shouting at each other "The sh-t in Germany is now piled this high" so I think the German people or a sizeable proportion were well and truly over Mr Hitler by the end of the war. I dare say the Japanese had enough of firebombing and being irradiated too.
The truth about the Middle East is that it was first stuffed up by the British with their damn colonial nonsense, then leaving and arbitrarily dividing the area up in to countries knowing nothing about the culture, religion and subtle differences and arrogantly insisting they were right, followed by both the US and Britain interfering in the region constantly, including the 1953 overthrow of the democratically elected and immensely popular government of Mossadeq, installing and supporting the murderous Shah which led Iran from a country that was very pro-US and pro-West to one that despises the West in many ways... the Persian people didn't just wake up one morning and decide to hate the US, these things take years of simmering under the surface.
Let's say Japan had invaded Australia in WWII and had got enough of a foothold and we had then been 'liberated' by the US who set up a new government and occupied the country for years, stole our resources and aribtrarily divided the country into different independent States - don't think for one minute we wouldn't have an undercurrent of hatred that would lash out at some point. Who is to say, we wouldn't have used passages in the Bible that referred to murdering all the people of the village if they not believe in god if we perceived their 'gods' to be heathen???
Top it off with the people of a region being treated or looked upon by the West for years as lesser peoples in the eyes of their colonising powers and the theft of priceless artifacts and you pretty much have the reason the region is how it is now.
Islam and the Middle East and Egypt were for centuries, centres of science and study. The numerals we use today and the concept of zero didn't exist until we adopted it from Arabic. A region like that didn't go rogue because it seemed like a good idea.
Last edited by psycho joe; 6th Aug 2017 at 22:24.
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I think before you jump to conclusions about Iran and backing the Shah, you should do some research and understand how Khomeini came to power and what the 'Anglo-Persian' oil company was all about.
Anyway what is happening in the Middle East is no different than what has happened throughout history. When the hell has it even been a stable region?
Anyway what is happening in the Middle East is no different than what has happened throughout history. When the hell has it even been a stable region?
Firstly I think its a bad idea to back the dictatorships of Iran and Syria as though they are the good guys, they aren't. It's a case of scumbags fighting scumbags. A case of dictators who gained their position through bloody violence fighting against rebels who wish to gain power through bloody violence. It's a failed philosophy and in the end they all hate us as the Koran commands them to do.
Secondly it's fallacious to think that on the human timeline, something that we the west may have done to offend Islam ten minutes ago has caused their angst toward us. The Koran goes to great detail in outlining which body parts should be removed from what specific group and how they should die. Jews, Christians, other beliefs, atheists and apostates, roll up roll up everyone gets a mention as Mohammed exhorts true believers to kill. These texts predate America by a thousand years, and on the question of Israel the Koran takes Muslim hate toward Jews back to the time of Abraham, which predates modern Israel by several thousand years. America and Israel are just an excuse to perpetuate murder.
Last edited by psycho joe; 6th Aug 2017 at 22:29.
You may have misinterpreted me then.
Unfortunately Psycho Joe, history is against you. The Ottoman Empire lasted a long time and like the Persians, tolerated jews, Christians, Zoroastrians, alawites, Copts, etc. alike.
You have no understanding whatsoever about Islam, only what you obviously read on right wing hate websites.
Take Indonesia for example, the largest Muslim nation in the world. Do you see them beheading anyone? Can you buy a beer in Medan, Bali, Jakarta? Are there women driving cars? Wearing bikinis? In politics? Seen the Christian missionaries in Sulawesi?
Islam is not a single religion with a Pope. it is multi confessional, there are only very loose 'authorities" (self appointed) who carry little sway outside their communities.
To put it another way, if you want to quote the Koran, then in the same breath you had better quote the Old Testament which has equally bloodcurdling commands in it.
To put it slightly more unkindly, take your hate speech BS and stick it where the sun don't shine.
You have no understanding whatsoever about Islam, only what you obviously read on right wing hate websites.
Take Indonesia for example, the largest Muslim nation in the world. Do you see them beheading anyone? Can you buy a beer in Medan, Bali, Jakarta? Are there women driving cars? Wearing bikinis? In politics? Seen the Christian missionaries in Sulawesi?
Islam is not a single religion with a Pope. it is multi confessional, there are only very loose 'authorities" (self appointed) who carry little sway outside their communities.
To put it another way, if you want to quote the Koran, then in the same breath you had better quote the Old Testament which has equally bloodcurdling commands in it.
To put it slightly more unkindly, take your hate speech BS and stick it where the sun don't shine.
Or, more specifically, the rejection of a calendar that is accepted by pretty much all "scientifically advanced" nations and religions.
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Unfortunately Psycho Joe, history is against you. The Ottoman Empire lasted a long time and like the Persians, tolerated jews, Christians, Zoroastrians, alawites, Copts, etc. alike.
You have no understanding whatsoever about Islam, only what you obviously read on right wing hate websites.
Take Indonesia for example, the largest Muslim nation in the world. Do you see them beheading anyone? Can you buy a beer in Medan, Bali, Jakarta? Are there women driving cars? Wearing bikinis? In politics? Seen the Christian missionaries in Sulawesi?
Islam is not a single religion with a Pope. it is multi confessional, there are only very loose 'authorities" (self appointed) who carry little sway outside their communities.
To put it another way, if you want to quote the Koran, then in the same breath you had better quote the Old Testament which has equally bloodcurdling commands in it.
To put it slightly more unkindly, take your hate speech BS and stick it where the sun don't shine.
You have no understanding whatsoever about Islam, only what you obviously read on right wing hate websites.
Take Indonesia for example, the largest Muslim nation in the world. Do you see them beheading anyone? Can you buy a beer in Medan, Bali, Jakarta? Are there women driving cars? Wearing bikinis? In politics? Seen the Christian missionaries in Sulawesi?
Islam is not a single religion with a Pope. it is multi confessional, there are only very loose 'authorities" (self appointed) who carry little sway outside their communities.
To put it another way, if you want to quote the Koran, then in the same breath you had better quote the Old Testament which has equally bloodcurdling commands in it.
To put it slightly more unkindly, take your hate speech BS and stick it where the sun don't shine.
Fortunately whilst your ignorance of history and tenants of Islam may make you feel warm and fuzzy, indeed you may well believe that the biggest existential threat to our civilisation is Judaism or the militant wing of the Salvation Army, or that every would be terrorist should hugged or that every actual muslim terrorist isn't really Muslim. Meanwhile here in reality whilst you're agog in your warm fuzzy delirium, blowing kisses to yourself in the mirror at how righteous you are, there are people working hard behind the scenes and quietly cutting through the pc bs in an effort to stop a mass breakout of Muslim peace.