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JT leaving Virgin this week

Old 30th Jul 2017, 12:28
  #141 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by AerialPerspective View Post
Well, you can twist the English language if you wish but it remains that Pilots who were already well paid asked for a nearly 30% wage increase and did it in the lead up to Christmas for maximum impact. They did it by WITHDRAWING THEIR LABOR during certain hours of the day - i.e outside 0900 to 1700 (business hours).
Whether you think so or not, this is the very essence of what a 'strike' is - withdrawal of labor during a dispute. Just because they were prepared to work 'as normal' for 8 of the 24 hours in a day did not make it anything less than a strike.
Then, in a stunningly dumb 'strategy' they on the advice of their industrial leadership resigned en masse.
The airlines couldn't believe their luck.
This is the thing and where they lost most of the Australian public who were at that time struggling and weren't interested when they couldn't get a 5% pay increase in someone asking for 30% (just under actually in total).
It was a strike. Calling it anything else is just being pedantic.
Despite what you say, working at Ansett, Pilots still got upgraded on just about every flight. So did TAA/Qantas Domestic Pilots.
A lot of what you say is correct. The pilots resigned on 24/8/89. It was industrial action yes, a work to rule yes but not a strike. Not at anytime did they withdraw their labour whilst employed. There is a big difference between what you get and what you are industrially entitled to.
JBs hang up is " not in any circumstances".
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Old 30th Jul 2017, 12:39
  #142 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ken Borough View Post
Crew dead-heading in the premium classes is a very circular argument with validity no matter which way you put it. From a Company's perspective, the loss of up to four seats for flight crew is a large commercial hit in a cabin of say 14 seats. It would also want to protect the exclusivity of its premium cabins without crew being there in uniform. Like it or not, it isn't good look. OTOH, a company certainly would want its people to be fully rested and as fit as possible prior to operating a flight. Thus, dead-heading in P or J prior to operating is desirable.

If a company doesn't want to jeopardise revenue, an acceptable alternative would be to upgrade on departure if seats were to be available. That costs nothing but would mean a lot to those being upgraded. A win/win situation? With the comfort now offered in J class with genuine lie-flat beds, can anyone justify dead-heading in First Class?
The pilots have the entitlement and it is up to the employer to get it off them. It is simple as that. That except for QF shorthaul(1989 hangover) and Virgin which made sure it wasn't in in the first place. It is interesting that the first VB chief pilot was the Ansett VP of AFAP at the time of the dispute. He oversaw the current provisions for duty travel in the VA pilots EBA.
The entitlement is that if a pilot has to duty travel, it will be First class on such configured aircraft or J class when first class is not available. It does not say that the pilot must travel on a particular flight. For example, if the airline was agile enough, it could offload the pilot from a flight where the seat is needed for someone who wants it and will pay full fare. The airline then has to pay the pilot according to the EBA until it can find him/ Her a first or J class seat.
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Old 30th Jul 2017, 13:11
  #143 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by JamieMaree View Post
A lot of what you say is correct. The pilots resigned on 24/8/89. It was industrial action yes, a work to rule yes but not a strike. Not at anytime did they withdraw their labour whilst employed. There is a big difference between what you get and what you are industrially entitled to.
JBs hang up is " not in any circumstances".
Well we can certainly agree JM I think on the fact that JB is an idiot and this pet fixation of his is stupid.
His logic is total and complete BULL SH-T (capitals intentional) when staff on 10 year free trip on VA International can travel Business Class. What's his logic for that... a freak wormhole in the time space continuum opens up and those staff pax don't dilute the product because of some quantum generator fitted to the 777.
I have been around the industry for 30+ years and in many airlines and it does not matter one jot re product... it's a product of his non-existent imagination... no one cares. If the service is good and value for money, most pax wouldn't give a toss nor know whether they are sitting next to a staff member. If I was on a VA flight in economy class and sitting next to a paxing crew member I certainly would not be impressed... I would be concerned that the person flying the next sector might not be rested enough.
I'd love someone to ask him one day how he justifies flying up there himself but no one else can. Surely if it's about 'staff' travelling in the forward cabin, he is the most recognisable 'staff' member they have.

I think it's more about him being a pretentious ****.

Last edited by AerialPerspective; 30th Jul 2017 at 13:15. Reason: add
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Old 1st Aug 2017, 22:23
  #144 (permalink)  
 
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Anyone know when Virgin announce their End of Financial year results?
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Old 1st Aug 2017, 23:04
  #145 (permalink)  
 
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What! He's Still There?

In Virgin terms, a week seems never ending
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Old 2nd Aug 2017, 06:50
  #146 (permalink)  
 
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From a Company's perspective, the loss of up to four seats for flight crew is a large commercial hit in a cabin of say 14 seats.
Just to clarify Ken, space available is all the unions or pilots have asked for.

And FYI a pilot staff traveller will be left behind with business totally empty. (No they wouldn't upgrade someone to get the pilot on and yes pilots also pay to sit in the jump seat on staff travel). Its a totally different culture to QF. It is what it is.

Personally I think way too much air is given to this topic as it simply is not going to change in the near future. The focus should be on what we can change.
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Old 2nd Aug 2017, 07:03
  #147 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Berealgetreal View Post
Just to clarify Ken, space available is all the unions or pilots have asked for.

And FYI a pilot staff traveller will be left behind with business totally empty. (No they wouldn't upgrade someone to get the pilot on and yes pilots also pay to sit in the jump seat on staff travel). Its a totally different culture to QF. It is what it is.

Personally I think way too much air is given to this topic as it simply is not going to change in the near future. The focus should be on what we can change.
Probably true... it's not going to change while you know who is there with his intellectually moribund ideas.
However, even if one agreed with the business class rule... it descends to absolute bloody mindedness when a company that is losing money hand over fist will not upgrade a commercial pax to get a staff member on duty on and would rather pay accommodation overnight if it means letting the last flight go.
This is just rank stupidity and no wonder the company is going down the toilet.
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Old 2nd Aug 2017, 12:44
  #148 (permalink)  
 
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I think we are at cross-purposes Berealgetreal! My post was about duty travel while you appear to be posting about staff travel at the cost of the employee.
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Old 3rd Aug 2017, 09:23
  #149 (permalink)  
 
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Duty travel: can be empty business and pilots in economy.

My post was to give an idea of how the issue is handled to an outsider. The first line in my previous post is referenced to Duty Travel (Union request for space available+deidentified only).

Again, with an absolute NO from the CEO I say bigger fish to fry elsewhere.

Last edited by Berealgetreal; 3rd Aug 2017 at 11:00.
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Old 15th Aug 2017, 14:21
  #150 (permalink)  
 
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Air Berlin going tits-up, Alitalia not far behind. Air Serbia down-sizing by leasing out airframes, Darwin Airlines sold to Slovenians for a song…...
The common thread here is Etihad invested companies are not good investments.
Is VA in the same boat?

halas
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Old 16th Aug 2017, 10:32
  #151 (permalink)  
 
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The barely disguised glee of some posters,despite protestations that the last thing they'd like to see is Virgin go,is a little unedifying.Some of these people seem to have pretty short memories,especially when the Q allegedly appeared to be in a fair bit of strife not so long ago,and all the stress that caused everybody,not just those who looked like they were under direct threat.I can say from personal experience that there was no schadenfreude going on in the VA flight decks at the time..it was more like a 'what's bad for them is bad for everyone' kind of tone,and 'hope it turns out okay' kind of thing.
I think most decent flight crew colleagues would be of a similar mind,regardless of which uniform they wear.Makes me wonder about what happened to these people,that they can take such apparent pleasure from others misfortune,or a competitors perceived hard times.
Perhaps those worst offenders are not actually flight crew anyway?Because anybody who has actually had a company disappear out from under them knows what a horrible experience that is...and that would include many if you've been in the game longer than 5 mins.
The big wheel turns,the only sure thing is it will turn again..and no one is completely immune.
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Old 16th Aug 2017, 12:05
  #152 (permalink)  
 
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The barely disguised glee of some posters,despite protestations that the last thing they'd like to see is Virgin go,is a little unedifying.Some of these people seem to have pretty short memories,especially when the Q allegedly appeared to be in a fair bit of strife not so long ago
Yes, I remember very well a VA pilot expressing with immense satisfaction that the "stuck up" QF pilots might be made redundant, and they won't be welcome at VA either.
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Old 16th Aug 2017, 12:47
  #153 (permalink)  
 
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Yeah,fair point John,but there's always a few in every bunch,even yours I would wager..they sneak in with the humans.
I never saw any of that [personally[/U],which I think I said in my post...
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Old 16th Aug 2017, 23:50
  #154 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Renton Field View Post
The barely disguised glee of some posters,despite protestations that the last thing they'd like to see is Virgin go,is a little unedifying.Some of these people seem to have pretty short memories,especially when the Q allegedly appeared to be in a fair bit of strife not so long ago,and all the stress that caused everybody,not just those who looked like they were under direct threat.I can say from personal experience that there was no schadenfreude going on in the VA flight decks at the time..it was more like a 'what's bad for them is bad for everyone' kind of tone,and 'hope it turns out okay' kind of thing.
I think most decent flight crew colleagues would be of a similar mind,regardless of which uniform they wear.Makes me wonder about what happened to these people,that they can take such apparent pleasure from others misfortune,or a competitors perceived hard times.
Perhaps those worst offenders are not actually flight crew anyway?Because anybody who has actually had a company disappear out from under them knows what a horrible experience that is...and that would include many if you've been in the game longer than 5 mins.
The big wheel turns,the only sure thing is it will turn again..and no one is completely immune.
I do not agree with you... 35 years in the industry, including being at AN when it collapsed means I for one certainly understand what it's like. To be fair I think a lot of the comments are lamenting the stupidity and incompetence of current management in wrecking what should be a stable and well managed competitor in the Australian landscape. DJ was a good competitor and a well run airline in many respects, it's only the current crop running VA that are inviting these comments.

No one is responding with 'glee' that VA might fail and please don't try and tell us that no one was negative toward QF a few years ago when they made that loss, many were saying 'good, I hope they go down the drain' and among them were people that work for VA that I was in contact with - mostly uninformed people were saying this who had no long-term background in the industry.

The difference of course is that QF had one bad year and most of it a write-down of assets whereas VA has been a steady decline from a once profitable airline. I sincerely hope that doesn't happen but observing that it won't under the current leadership is not expressing 'glee', it's stating a fact.

Last edited by AerialPerspective; 16th Aug 2017 at 23:52. Reason: corr
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 00:28
  #155 (permalink)  
 
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Yes, I remember very well a VA pilot expressing with immense satisfaction that the "stuck up" QF pilots might be made redundant, and they won't be welcome at VA either.
I didn't see that, quite the opposite in fact. The idea that Skywest, Tiger or QF group pilots would be poorly treated by Virgin pilots is total nonsense.

Say what you want about company and management but dare not speak of the pilots like that. I can't speak highly enough of them, they are excellent people. The camaraderie is excellent, if its not helping a pilot you've never met with an upcoming sim its lending a hand on the weekend to shift house. That includes the check and training department, done hundreds of checks and sims and never had a bad experience. Thats my experience.

It was intact this that drew me to the company in the first place and on that front I've not been disappointed.

Top notch.

Last edited by Berealgetreal; 17th Aug 2017 at 00:41.
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 01:49
  #156 (permalink)  
 
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Hmm... yes I thought AP might respond,but that's cool,that's what the forum is for.
"No one is responding with glee"??..(in no particular order,and nothing against the posters,just making the point about the general tone of the thread.)
'Amateur hour..'
'The fun never stops at VA!'
'It's been good,best of luck to the next competitor..Virgin out'
'sincerely hope that doesn't happen'
Really...?
I agree the strategy looks confused,and there's no denying some big errors have been made.And someone with AP's obviously extensive experience in the game is probably more qualified than most to comment..but geeez,are things really that awesome and secure from your own position that you can sink the slipper in with such gusto,just because you can,and no one at some point will say 'steady on..'
Comment on the shambles that it appears to be(a bit like it appeared to be at the Q not so long ago) by all means,but it can start to sound like there may be other issues going on.
Most flight crew from any company that I'd like to have a beer and a chinwag with don't operate this way...The point is there doesn't have the nasty undertone to the discussion,doesn't do anyone any good.
Might also make the observation that our friends from the Middle East,China and Singapore are not renowned for throwing good money after bad,if they were getting involved with VA as a pure profit making enterprise, they probably would have shut it down a few years back.
So it's possibly about other things,who knows,I sure don't...and there's no doubt much smarter people than myself will make those calls.I'll probably be the last to find out if it goes bad,so I'm gonna try not to lose too much sleep over shit I can't control.
Oh ...and agree completely Bereal..
Anyhoo I'm off to do some sectors,and will enjoy it immensely on such a lovely day..what're you doing today AP?
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 02:39
  #157 (permalink)  
 
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Perhaps those worst offenders are not actually flight crew anyway?
Would be interesting to see the breakdown on PPRuNe between actual flight crew vs flight sim/hobbiest/enthusiasts...

I would suggest professional pilots would be in a small minority.
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 02:40
  #158 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Berealgetreal View Post
I didn't see that, quite the opposite in fact. The idea that Skywest, Tiger or QF group pilots would be poorly treated by Virgin pilots is total nonsense.

Say what you want about company and management but dare not speak of the pilots like that. I can't speak highly enough of them, they are excellent people. The camaraderie is excellent, if its not helping a pilot you've never met with an upcoming sim its lending a hand on the weekend to shift house. That includes the check and training department, done hundreds of checks and sims and never had a bad experience. Thats my experience.

It was intact this that drew me to the company in the first place and on that front I've not been disappointed.

Top notch.
I think the reality is that there are people like that in all organisations and they thankfully are the less informed, immature and in the minority but shouldn't be taken to be representative of an entire group.
On the whole my experience has been positive regardless of which company I've worked for, most decent people have been hardworking and agnostic when it came to commentary on the opposition whomever they may be.
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 03:33
  #159 (permalink)  
 
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My experience has been different. I haven't seen what I've seen at Virgin in other companies. CT was a nightmare in a couple and the camaraderie wasn't there. I've found Virgin on these fronts to be be far the best I've seen anywhere.

My last company nearly made me leave the industry the culture was so poor. Glad things went the way they did.

My wife works in another industry and the politics and back stabbing she speaks of stuns me.
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Old 18th Aug 2017, 06:45
  #160 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Renton Field View Post
Hmm... yes I thought AP might respond,but that's cool,that's what the forum is for.
"No one is responding with glee"??..(in no particular order,and nothing against the posters,just making the point about the general tone of the thread.)
'Amateur hour..'
'The fun never stops at VA!'
'It's been good,best of luck to the next competitor..Virgin out'
'sincerely hope that doesn't happen'
Really...?
I agree the strategy looks confused,and there's no denying some big errors have been made.And someone with AP's obviously extensive experience in the game is probably more qualified than most to comment..but geeez,are things really that awesome and secure from your own position that you can sink the slipper in with such gusto,just because you can,and no one at some point will say 'steady on..'
Comment on the shambles that it appears to be(a bit like it appeared to be at the Q not so long ago) by all means,but it can start to sound like there may be other issues going on.
Most flight crew from any company that I'd like to have a beer and a chinwag with don't operate this way...The point is there doesn't have the nasty undertone to the discussion,doesn't do anyone any good.
Might also make the observation that our friends from the Middle East,China and Singapore are not renowned for throwing good money after bad,if they were getting involved with VA as a pure profit making enterprise, they probably would have shut it down a few years back.
So it's possibly about other things,who knows,I sure don't...and there's no doubt much smarter people than myself will make those calls.I'll probably be the last to find out if it goes bad,so I'm gonna try not to lose too much sleep over shit I can't control.
Oh ...and agree completely Bereal..
Anyhoo I'm off to do some sectors,and will enjoy it immensely on such a lovely day..what're you doing today AP?
Amateur hour... a number of people I know in VA have said this... it's an expression
The fun never stops at VA... again, just an expression alluding to the change of direction and non-profitability.
It's been good, best of luck to the next competitor... Virgin out' (OK, a little nasty on the surface but I think there's a bit of sarcasm in that line... that's how I took it when I read it first anyway.
'sincerely hope that doesn't happen' - ??? So, are people now to be categorised as 'glee' when someone says they genuinely don't want it to happen.

I think you're being a little precious which is fine, people are allowed to express their reactions and opinions in whatever way they like, it all adds to the discussion.

If I were to say about the current citizenship issues in Canberra - "Oh, gee, if this keeps going they'll have to install a queue system at the High Court but hope it doesn't happen" am I showing 'glee' in the light of the current woes of the Senate and House of Reps?

The strategy is 'somewhat confused' - mmm - OK, if that's what you want to call it I guess that's one way of putting it but isn't it a little bit of a stretch to be told year after year that 'net positive cash flow is up' and similar but the company hasn't made a profit for 5 years or more and it all coincides with one person's tenure.

The difference I think with QF is that it was profitable for a time under Joyce, it then had one or two years of problems financially and then went back to profitability. Sounds more like a bit of 'game playing' to get sympathy from the government to me rather than 'dire concerns'.

I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that if it were not for the major owners/shareholders of VA it wouldn't be around.

Air NZ is one of the best performing and highly rated airlines in the world and they 'exited' Virgin in a flurry of public statements including leaked claims they wanted the CEO of VA out. A major shareholder (the largest at the time) exiting in that manner is no small matter and many see it as a indictment of the company's management not the employees.
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