MERGED: Air Asia Turnback Perth 25 Jun 17
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Air Asia is Malaysian. Predominant religion in Malaysia is Islam. Now, when it comes to faith and beliefs in religion and prayer in Islam, prayer is an ingrained way of life which some of you fail to understand whilst sitting in a predominantly white, christian country. Through ignorance, you'd all be sitting there venting rage and disbelief if he had said 'Insha'Allah', or worse 'Allahu akbar' and again you would fail to understand or respect other's faith, religion or prayer. If he wants to call to prayer, so be it...at least he respected all faiths, in English.
...In any case, prayer isn't what saves a plane in trouble - its good airmanship. Well done to the pilot for getting the plane back on the ground safely but I doubt it had anything to do with any of the prayers of the pilot or pax.
I'm not sure if it's been mentioned, but YPLM has very little in the way of emergency/ARFF resources, let alone ability to handle PAX etc. I've never flown an A330 so can't comment on it from a type specific point of view, but Learmonth can't have been the ideal place to land if it was safe to go elsewhere.
Whether it was safe or not I'll leave up to the experts.
Whether it was safe or not I'll leave up to the experts.
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Surely it's the IAS you want to reduce- that's what's driving the windmilling. Stay up high if you've decided you want to get back to PH in a reasonable time at low IAS but reasonable TAS.
Last edited by bekolblockage; 26th Jun 2017 at 03:51.
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My lack of religious belief contrasted with a firm grip on reality would tell me not to get on the damned thing in the first place.If you can't afford the extra 200 bucks - don't go.
Mixing religion with aviation. Now there's an oxymoron. Returning to Perth was questionable when Learmonth was so close. You must also consider the possibility of any further degradation of the aircraft systems. The longer the exposure the greater the risk. From the video the vibration was significant. It was severe engine damage.......LAND at the nearest suitable.
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It would be interesting to compare the list of indiscretions that Tiger did in the lead up to them being grounded, versus those of Air Asia in Australia over the past few years.
Mixing religion with aviation. Now there's an oxymoron. Returning to Perth was questionable when Learmonth was so close. You must also consider the possibility of any further degradation of the aircraft systems. The longer the exposure the greater the risk. From the video the vibration was significant. It was severe engine damage.......LAND at the nearest suitable.
The vibration that is shaking things is a function of specific frequencies, higher speed would likely be less vibration.
There is no indication that critical aircraft structures are involved.
best we await the pilot report of sensed vibration vs AC speed points before judging how soon he should have landed.
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The issue seems to be that the aircraft is now down to a single engine, and has flown past a perfectly suitable alternate airport. Yes, he "could" continue on one engine to Perth, but what if he lost the other one? Not unheard of. Better to be safe on the ground nearby than in the air hundreds of kms from your destination and then there is that silence . . .
Don't take it personally, yours was the last post mentioning religion and I simply replied to that. If indeed the Captain was/is Muslim, he has been a Muslim longer than he has been a pilot. Some comments lack understanding and appreciation of other's religion and life. Islam is also a way of life and there are some fundamental misunderstandings of Islam and being a Muslim.
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There are some remarkably bad takes here. Many implying this was a simple decision and 'obviously' the wrong one was made.
Why is YPLM automatically considered by many as nearest suitable? It's isolated, limited RFF, limited hospital facilities, limited ATC, etc They weren't flying a Cessna. The AirAsia guys are thinking about all that and also considering Customs, hotels, maintenance and on it goes. Not to mention that the aeroplane is perfectly capable of flying on one engine. Many here are comfortable because they understand what it would be like at Learmonth (or somewhere similar in Oz) But it wouldn't have been that simple to these guys.
Take this scenario:
400nm out of Manilla an engine fails. 200nm ahead is an uncontrolled/isolated airport with few facilities. You've never been to this airport but heard about it and it's listed as an emergency in your company's manual. Manilla is about an hour behind you but that's a destination with all the bells and whistles. About half way back to Manilla there's a small airport you COULD use if absolutely necessary just for a bit of concrete if it gets very quiet all of a sudden.
It's a 'no-brainer' that you'd land at that isolated airport 200nm ahead? OK. Unbelievably, you stuff up the single engine landing (undoubtedly your first ever on the A330 outside a sim) into the isolated airport and end up with a collapsed gear off the end of the runway followed by a fire. Now you're evacuating with little support and virtually no medical assistance. Multiple fatalities. I can see the pprune thread now...
Why is YPLM automatically considered by many as nearest suitable? It's isolated, limited RFF, limited hospital facilities, limited ATC, etc They weren't flying a Cessna. The AirAsia guys are thinking about all that and also considering Customs, hotels, maintenance and on it goes. Not to mention that the aeroplane is perfectly capable of flying on one engine. Many here are comfortable because they understand what it would be like at Learmonth (or somewhere similar in Oz) But it wouldn't have been that simple to these guys.
Take this scenario:
400nm out of Manilla an engine fails. 200nm ahead is an uncontrolled/isolated airport with few facilities. You've never been to this airport but heard about it and it's listed as an emergency in your company's manual. Manilla is about an hour behind you but that's a destination with all the bells and whistles. About half way back to Manilla there's a small airport you COULD use if absolutely necessary just for a bit of concrete if it gets very quiet all of a sudden.
It's a 'no-brainer' that you'd land at that isolated airport 200nm ahead? OK. Unbelievably, you stuff up the single engine landing (undoubtedly your first ever on the A330 outside a sim) into the isolated airport and end up with a collapsed gear off the end of the runway followed by a fire. Now you're evacuating with little support and virtually no medical assistance. Multiple fatalities. I can see the pprune thread now...
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Interesting thread single engine vs two engine.
SE cut and dry = land át nearest suitable airport!
Define suitable? 5000ft elevation with terrain issues vs 10 min further on at sea level and no terrain?
Nearly SE, ie running one engine at less than full thrust due to a problem, it doesn't say land at nearest suitable airport because airlines didn't want that in a checklist (managment like grey areas they can manoeuvre here)
But consider one engine that can only produce 50% thrust and the other engine going from 100% thrust to 0% you will not maintain altitude !!
So consider landing at nearest suitable airport!!
Management via ACARS or Sat Phone will ask you to go to an airport that's suitable for them, and if it goes wrong it's your arse and remember they only asked you, not told you!
The captain on the Swiss 777 did the right thing, landed in the snow in the middle of winter in northern Canada and handed the companies broken aircraft back to them to sort out their own problems.
SE cut and dry = land át nearest suitable airport!
Define suitable? 5000ft elevation with terrain issues vs 10 min further on at sea level and no terrain?
Nearly SE, ie running one engine at less than full thrust due to a problem, it doesn't say land at nearest suitable airport because airlines didn't want that in a checklist (managment like grey areas they can manoeuvre here)
But consider one engine that can only produce 50% thrust and the other engine going from 100% thrust to 0% you will not maintain altitude !!
So consider landing at nearest suitable airport!!
Management via ACARS or Sat Phone will ask you to go to an airport that's suitable for them, and if it goes wrong it's your arse and remember they only asked you, not told you!
The captain on the Swiss 777 did the right thing, landed in the snow in the middle of winter in northern Canada and handed the companies broken aircraft back to them to sort out their own problems.
Surprised no one has mentioned the cockpit gradient that is so often referred to with Asian carriers. The Captain made a decision based upon experience and knowledge and safely got it on the deck. If it was a crash a lot would still pile **** on him. Professional respect anyone???
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Rolls Royce Engines Shaking?
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Pretty unprofessional on the pilots part to suggest prayer...
On local news coverage the passengers hears a loud bang, followed by the vibrations.
The local news went on to say an engine 'seized', though that would not seem consistent with shaking continuing on for over 90 minutes.
Would have though shutting down the engine would be sufficient to stop the shaking though...
Anyone have some actual information as to what happened?
From :
The Australian Article
Brenton Atkinson said the plane started vibrating and shaking after what sounded like a small explosion.
“It was literally like you were sitting on top of a washing machine,” he told ABC radio.
“You could see the engine out the window which was really shaking on the wing.
“It was a little unnerving, everyone handled it pretty well, no one freaked out too much.”
On local news coverage the passengers hears a loud bang, followed by the vibrations.
The local news went on to say an engine 'seized', though that would not seem consistent with shaking continuing on for over 90 minutes.
Would have though shutting down the engine would be sufficient to stop the shaking though...
Anyone have some actual information as to what happened?
From :
The Australian Article
Brenton Atkinson said the plane started vibrating and shaking after what sounded like a small explosion.
“It was literally like you were sitting on top of a washing machine,” he told ABC radio.
“You could see the engine out the window which was really shaking on the wing.
“It was a little unnerving, everyone handled it pretty well, no one freaked out too much.”
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Concours 77 has just updated an old saying to 'A You Tube is worth a thousand words' It was an excellent demonstration of a serious problem.
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The Electra had many changes after the fatal inflight wing separation, one change was the advance of phasing the propellers to prevent vibration (prevent multiple blades from crossing the leading edge at the same time).
Air Asia:
I would suspect if the Captain kept the damaged engine running this may produce the vibration seen in the film vs it shut down.
When dealing with Operations at certain airlines information can be demanding to land the aircraft at the base of operations. Obviously you have an engine change but I would be very concerned over continuing a flight with excessive vibration. One person mentioned it was worse than a helicopter, I flew in plenty of those contraptions however never to experience what was referred. Severe vibration can damage all aircraft. I would think the vibration in the center of the aircraft where the engine is mounted is less vibration vs the cockpit. I experienced a moderate vibration from a worn out rudder bellcrank sperical bearing that came on while climbing out of FL 240 up to FL 390. I stopped climb and slowed down. Time to return back to where we started from, Dubai, but the Captain feels we can and should continue to Shanghai? Captain if you walk all the way back to the pressure bulkhead and your ok with this vibration I'm ok with it also. He returns and his eyeballs are wide open. I then inform him that we'll have to dump fuel. He calls operations and next thing we get a phone call from operations and then messages on our printer stating that the head of training has blessed us with a procedure of landing overweight. Really? Why do operations get involved making this **** up? We didn't declare an emergency, were not on fire. We entered an altitude and speed range where the vibration occured, we arrested it and returned but dumped fuel bring us within proper landing weight (limitations). Worked all the checklists and went to the hotel. The tail of a B744 is 64' and they didn't have proper checks on the tail because of the necessity of having a vertical stand. They changed the sperical bearing and problem solved. People that carry broken aircraft screw it up for the next crew. Continuing to China could have brought the flight control into a flutter. Was it a balance weight missing. You don't know.
Air Asia:
I would suspect if the Captain kept the damaged engine running this may produce the vibration seen in the film vs it shut down.
When dealing with Operations at certain airlines information can be demanding to land the aircraft at the base of operations. Obviously you have an engine change but I would be very concerned over continuing a flight with excessive vibration. One person mentioned it was worse than a helicopter, I flew in plenty of those contraptions however never to experience what was referred. Severe vibration can damage all aircraft. I would think the vibration in the center of the aircraft where the engine is mounted is less vibration vs the cockpit. I experienced a moderate vibration from a worn out rudder bellcrank sperical bearing that came on while climbing out of FL 240 up to FL 390. I stopped climb and slowed down. Time to return back to where we started from, Dubai, but the Captain feels we can and should continue to Shanghai? Captain if you walk all the way back to the pressure bulkhead and your ok with this vibration I'm ok with it also. He returns and his eyeballs are wide open. I then inform him that we'll have to dump fuel. He calls operations and next thing we get a phone call from operations and then messages on our printer stating that the head of training has blessed us with a procedure of landing overweight. Really? Why do operations get involved making this **** up? We didn't declare an emergency, were not on fire. We entered an altitude and speed range where the vibration occured, we arrested it and returned but dumped fuel bring us within proper landing weight (limitations). Worked all the checklists and went to the hotel. The tail of a B744 is 64' and they didn't have proper checks on the tail because of the necessity of having a vertical stand. They changed the sperical bearing and problem solved. People that carry broken aircraft screw it up for the next crew. Continuing to China could have brought the flight control into a flutter. Was it a balance weight missing. You don't know.
He not only told the passengers that they better start praying, but he also said that he himself was going to pray as well.
What happened to "relying on your training and experience"?
What happened to trusting the redundancy of the airplane design?
By the way, why would an aircraft manufacturer build in any redundancy, if everything is decided by a higher power anyway?
Seriously. We (humanity) need to start to re-evaluate this reliance on any gods asap.
What happened to "relying on your training and experience"?
What happened to trusting the redundancy of the airplane design?
By the way, why would an aircraft manufacturer build in any redundancy, if everything is decided by a higher power anyway?
Seriously. We (humanity) need to start to re-evaluate this reliance on any gods asap.
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I do not think praying is unprofessional,some people believe in an almighty. If praying helps relieve their stress a bit let them be.
For the second part, shutting down a damaged engine is no guarantee the vibrations will stop. A damaged engine will probably be out of balance and windmilling in the airflow causing the vibrations to continue.
For the second part, shutting down a damaged engine is no guarantee the vibrations will stop. A damaged engine will probably be out of balance and windmilling in the airflow causing the vibrations to continue.