Game Over 457 scam?
Well in ATC- ASA hires overseas controllers and offers them higher salaries and signup bonuses. If you are an equally/more qualified Australian, your offer is far less.
It is well known in ATC circles that this is the case.
It is well known in ATC circles that this is the case.
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I wonder if there is any direct connection between the recent lack of wage growth and increased 457s?
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I was of the understanding that airlines in Australia had pay scales as part of approved EBA's.
These pay scales are based on position held, aircraft size and years of service within the company.
Certainly in large companies these are neither flexible or negotiable salary amounts.
I would also love any anti 457 persons to produce any evidence that any person employed by any airline in Australia, is paid less than the EBA stipulates.
These pay scales are based on position held, aircraft size and years of service within the company.
Certainly in large companies these are neither flexible or negotiable salary amounts.
I would also love any anti 457 persons to produce any evidence that any person employed by any airline in Australia, is paid less than the EBA stipulates.
How's this for sobering reading, the RBA's wage growth forecasts vs reality for the last few years
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In Medical fields, 457 holders get paid the same contract and payments as Australians. they cover essential parts/areas that Australians can't and don't want to cover.
They are subjected to stringent international standard testing and scrutiny that they even get downgraded initially from their original position (just in case). There are still much needed vacancy in specific medical and nursing specialities in certain areas used to be called (Area of Need).
In other fields, it should have been illegal to be getting paid less than permanent residents or Australians, constitutional point of view.
Also, it is true 457 visa is cancelled but those professionals will get entry under different visa name. There are still in Occupational shortage lists. It might not be as easy to get Citizenship after, which might reduce the incentive to those skilled professional to come over.
(I'm not sure about citizenship pathway to the new visa holders now).
They are subjected to stringent international standard testing and scrutiny that they even get downgraded initially from their original position (just in case). There are still much needed vacancy in specific medical and nursing specialities in certain areas used to be called (Area of Need).
In other fields, it should have been illegal to be getting paid less than permanent residents or Australians, constitutional point of view.
Also, it is true 457 visa is cancelled but those professionals will get entry under different visa name. There are still in Occupational shortage lists. It might not be as easy to get Citizenship after, which might reduce the incentive to those skilled professional to come over.
(I'm not sure about citizenship pathway to the new visa holders now).
For my money these are in fact sensible changes to the system. Where there are indeed legitimate areas of need then employers will be required to demonstrate market testing.
It demonstrates that the government doesn't have a tin ear on wages growth and it happens to protect them against one nation to some degree where people like George Christiansan is polling them neck and neck.
It is a little odd though that Tony Abbott was in fact the one that removed penalties that had previously been put in by Labor to penalise employers that exceeded their approved quota.
Rort fears as 457 visa loophole reopened
Why would anyone do that if they in fact though that there should be a quota in the first place. What a waste of oxygen that man was.
It demonstrates that the government doesn't have a tin ear on wages growth and it happens to protect them against one nation to some degree where people like George Christiansan is polling them neck and neck.
It is a little odd though that Tony Abbott was in fact the one that removed penalties that had previously been put in by Labor to penalise employers that exceeded their approved quota.
Rort fears as 457 visa loophole reopened
Why would anyone do that if they in fact though that there should be a quota in the first place. What a waste of oxygen that man was.
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"I wonder if there is any direct connection between the recent lack of wage growth and increased 457s?"
"There absolutely is, and it's not just 457s but all types of skilled migration including skilled migrants moving to Australia permanently."
I doubt there is any connection. When the largest employer sector (small business) has generally been doing it very tough for a good number of years due to things including high Ozzie $, weather events and flow on effects of the GFC. There has been genuinely a lack of money for pay increases for many. More recently the slump in the mining sector took of demand for all types of workers, so competing sectors have not had to increase salaries to retain staff. Then the massive employer our government/s Public Service sector, have not in most cases had pay increases for 3 or more years (why the recent strikes by boarder staff). If the government are not increasing salaries at all then it is not likely the private sector will need to either.
Both the 457 and other skilled migration visas are for listed occupations only - there is no indication that occupations that are not listed or never have been listed, have any higher wage growth rate than any listed one.
Real sustainable wage growth required certain conditions, some of those conditions are controllable by the employer, some controllable by our government/s and some are dictated by international conditions.
Personally I also think the big 2 and the big 4 have also had an impact on wages growth (lack of) as well as the tax practices of the google, apple and Microsoft (and others) use to get money offshore.
"There absolutely is, and it's not just 457s but all types of skilled migration including skilled migrants moving to Australia permanently."
I doubt there is any connection. When the largest employer sector (small business) has generally been doing it very tough for a good number of years due to things including high Ozzie $, weather events and flow on effects of the GFC. There has been genuinely a lack of money for pay increases for many. More recently the slump in the mining sector took of demand for all types of workers, so competing sectors have not had to increase salaries to retain staff. Then the massive employer our government/s Public Service sector, have not in most cases had pay increases for 3 or more years (why the recent strikes by boarder staff). If the government are not increasing salaries at all then it is not likely the private sector will need to either.
Both the 457 and other skilled migration visas are for listed occupations only - there is no indication that occupations that are not listed or never have been listed, have any higher wage growth rate than any listed one.
Real sustainable wage growth required certain conditions, some of those conditions are controllable by the employer, some controllable by our government/s and some are dictated by international conditions.
Personally I also think the big 2 and the big 4 have also had an impact on wages growth (lack of) as well as the tax practices of the google, apple and Microsoft (and others) use to get money offshore.
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I received no sign up bonus and, with 13 years prior experience, I discovered I am actually on a slightly lower salary than some of my less experienced local counterparts.
I was employed to fill a position that ASA had chronic difficulties filling locally. Both through Ab Initio training, and by experienced controllers from other sectors.
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Grossly untrue.
I received no sign up bonus and, with 13 years prior experience, I discovered I am actually on a slightly lower salary than some of my less experienced local counterparts.
I was employed to fill a position that ASA had chronic difficulties filling locally. Both through Ab Initio training, and by experienced controllers from other sectors.
I received no sign up bonus and, with 13 years prior experience, I discovered I am actually on a slightly lower salary than some of my less experienced local counterparts.
I was employed to fill a position that ASA had chronic difficulties filling locally. Both through Ab Initio training, and by experienced controllers from other sectors.
Like they get paid more as they have worked more years for the employer than you (even though you have more years total working than them) or some of your competencies are not recognised here.
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ASA wiil try get them for the lowest possible price, and if I was doing the employing I would too.
There was no need for this staffing crisis in ATC, ASA were warned years and years and years ago that this would happen. Truth is, these jobs should be for Australians only. ASA will not invest the required amount of money to resource a training college capable of supplying the ATC's required.
There was no need for this staffing crisis in ATC, ASA were warned years and years and years ago that this would happen. Truth is, these jobs should be for Australians only. ASA will not invest the required amount of money to resource a training college capable of supplying the ATC's required.
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ASA wiil try get them for the lowest possible price, and if I was doing the employing I would too.
There was no need for this staffing crisis in ATC, ASA were warned years and years and years ago that this would happen. Truth is, these jobs should be for Australians only. ASA will not invest the required amount of money to resource a training college capable of supplying the ATC's required.
There was no need for this staffing crisis in ATC, ASA were warned years and years and years ago that this would happen. Truth is, these jobs should be for Australians only. ASA will not invest the required amount of money to resource a training college capable of supplying the ATC's required.
How are they going to solve this crisis if they aren't allowed to hire overseas controllers anymore ?
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A lot of misinformation here?
A 457 worker must be paid at the rate specified in the Award or EBA, or the same rate of pay as an Australian doing the same job with the same employer, or the average rate of pay for the same job in the same geographical region, which ever is the higher.
A 457 worker must receive the same benefits (annual leave, sick leave, public holidays, Superannuation etc) as specified in industrial legislation, an Award or EBA, as any other Australian worker may be entitled to.
A 457 worker has the same access to the Fair Work Australia, as any other worker, including a right to compensation for unfair dismissal.
Chuboy, many factors distort any relationship between your graph and the influx of 457 workers, including the fact that 457 workers may only be employed in selected ANZSCO level 400000 positions and above. Statistically, you can not compare a group of 95,000 workers who are employed exclusively in qualified trades, professional and managerial positions, with the total Australian work force in general where at least 30% are employed in ANZSCO level 500000 positions and below.
With apprentice numbers 40% below the number in training a decade ago, the next few years are going to be interesting. We may well see doctors and lawyers taking up plumbing apprenticeships as they chase even higher incomes........... Our national skills deficit is at crisis level, but the politicians are not interested in serious investment in vocational training.
A 457 worker must be paid at the rate specified in the Award or EBA, or the same rate of pay as an Australian doing the same job with the same employer, or the average rate of pay for the same job in the same geographical region, which ever is the higher.
A 457 worker must receive the same benefits (annual leave, sick leave, public holidays, Superannuation etc) as specified in industrial legislation, an Award or EBA, as any other Australian worker may be entitled to.
A 457 worker has the same access to the Fair Work Australia, as any other worker, including a right to compensation for unfair dismissal.
Chuboy, many factors distort any relationship between your graph and the influx of 457 workers, including the fact that 457 workers may only be employed in selected ANZSCO level 400000 positions and above. Statistically, you can not compare a group of 95,000 workers who are employed exclusively in qualified trades, professional and managerial positions, with the total Australian work force in general where at least 30% are employed in ANZSCO level 500000 positions and below.
With apprentice numbers 40% below the number in training a decade ago, the next few years are going to be interesting. We may well see doctors and lawyers taking up plumbing apprenticeships as they chase even higher incomes........... Our national skills deficit is at crisis level, but the politicians are not interested in serious investment in vocational training.
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Can you supply a reason for the "slightly lower salary" is it for a valid reason?
Like they get paid more as they have worked more years for the employer than you (even though you have more years total working than them) or some of your competencies are not recognised here.
Like they get paid more as they have worked more years for the employer than you (even though you have more years total working than them) or some of your competencies are not recognised here.
Also my OJTI and Supervisory competencies are not recognised as such.
I highly doubt that you will see people who have just spent 10 years at uni leaving to go to TAFE to be plumbers. Doctors actually have numerous career paths and the AMA ensures that they don't get white anted by being both a pusedo union and regulator.
The issue everywhere else is that nobody wants to be responsible for training. Tradesmen don't want apprentices, Companies like Sydney Harbour Seaplanes mentioned above won't risk junior pilots, you can get all the training you want but if you can't get entry level jobs and have something resembling a career path what's the point?
Aviation has always been a fine example of this, it's just now with the destruction of GA, and the isolation of experience as shown by the AFR article there will be a continual drain of pilots because ultimately people aren't going to waste their money and time.
The issue everywhere else is that nobody wants to be responsible for training. Tradesmen don't want apprentices, Companies like Sydney Harbour Seaplanes mentioned above won't risk junior pilots, you can get all the training you want but if you can't get entry level jobs and have something resembling a career path what's the point?
Aviation has always been a fine example of this, it's just now with the destruction of GA, and the isolation of experience as shown by the AFR article there will be a continual drain of pilots because ultimately people aren't going to waste their money and time.
Last edited by neville_nobody; 24th Apr 2017 at 01:24.
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Thanks for the reply, the 457 type visa is needed in Australia (a few have abused it)
But this paid less bit gets to me, as it is not true (in MOST cases).
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I highly doubt that you will see people who have just spent 10 years at uni leaving to go to TAFE to be plumbers.
There are many applications for the numerous apprentice and trainee vacancies. Sadly many are driven by the requirement to apply for employment positions in order to continue to receive the dole. And it shows in their applications.......
There are continuing high numbers of very good mature age applicants for apprentice positions. Sadly, in the Modern Awards FWA have set the wage for mature age apprentices so high that tradies are reluctant engage with this group.
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Coupled with the getting rid of any that will/can not cut it, after the probation period. With increasing wage cost over 3-3.5 years until end of apprenticeship.
In the new World of 145 employment, apprentices should also be "performance based"