PR preparation for the Borghetti replacement underway
This is a country, where as a sample, I have witnessed the following:
1. A family visiting Disneyland on the trip of a lifetime failed to notice that on the mother's passport which included one of the children had a valid US Visa but a 'handwritten' almost unnoticeable biro mark through the S on 'bearers'.
The entire family were taken under armed guard to a hotel, guarded overnight by an officer who watched them go to the toilet, etc then were escorted back the next day and deported.
2. A country like the United States, POST 9/11 wondering why it happened maintained as their records of entry/exit of the country a small green stub from the I94 card stapled to a passport page. The system was totally reliant on a low paid check in agent remembering to remove the stub and passing it to immigration.
An airline employee escorting a group of travel industry personnel to promote the US as a destination who had previously visited the US had left and the check-in agent had obviously lost the stub on her last trip.
The employee traveling on this occasion, was bullied and reduced to tears in front of the guests of the airline and accused of illegally living in the United States. She was hounded and accused of being an illegal immigrant and at no point did it occur to the officious, overbearing imbecile that was putting her through the ringer that the boarding pass she was holding, the exit stamp from Australia, the evidence of crew on the aircraft and any number of their own damn video surveillance could have verified that she arrived on the flight that day from Sydney but NOOOO let's not think, let's just act like a bunch of fascists and do the same as to the family above, assign an armed guard to watch her shower, toilet and strip search her then deport her the next day leaving a group of agents stranded on their own. It was only after representations from the Australian government to the US Embassy in Canberra after the airline (a foreign airline that back then operated SYD-LAX) that she was allowed to return a day later and received an apology from the US.
These are not isolated incidents I saw many examples of this in my years. How does the most powerful nation on earth have the gall to act like this while maintaining a system from the 19th century for recording departures from the country.
On top of this, when visiting Washington DC I was standing drinking a coffee talking to my then wife, next to the seat she was sitting on in the middle of a concourse that was at least 25 metres wide and a DC Cop come barrelling down the concourse and gave me a mouth full of abuse because she had to take one step of about 6 inches to the right to walk around me... I remember thinking at the time "and they let that person carry a firearm???".
I'm not saying that it's like this in every neighborhood and at every shopping mall but if you think that 13,000+ gun deaths every year and a Police shooting (usually of a non-white person) for no apparent reason isn't a sign of (and I acknowledge there are many good Police I'm sure) something seriously wrong with the general law enforcement culture and the culture in general then you are the idiot.
And it's been like this for decades. My father visited for the first time in 1973. He was held up at Customs because he had a bottle of Duty Free Scotch which he had bought to consume at night before bed in his hotel room... the Customs office held him for 20 minutes trying to convince him to admit that it was a gift for someone which it wasn't... I mean, this was a case of 'Don't you have something more important to do???' and in the end he let him go because he said "Look, we can discuss this for the next week if you like but the story is not going to change, I bought it for my own consumption".
The really laughable thing is, if that makes us a nanny State where we spend approximately 9% of GDP on health and everyone is covered as opposed to the US who spend nearly 20% and nearly a tenth of the population isn't covered, then I'll go with the moniker happily.
The only developed Western country without universal health care and at least regional pilots, many on 'food stamps' must make you so proud. Certainly Sully isn't a big fan from his testimony to Congress.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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while the good Doctor elected not to do it, and was physically fighting a lawful ejection from the aircraft.
Red jet and Icarus:
Both of you make the case that the passenger was required by law to comply with what was purported to be a lawful instruction from aircrew (or cabin crew).
However the instruction itself was sufficiently bizarre enough for the passenger to challenge it and that triggered an overly aggressive response from the airport police.
I say "bizarre" because this type of behaviour is unheard of (until now) on an already loaded aircraft although it is not unknown before boarding. To put that another way, every passenger seated on that aircraft had a valid ticket and boarding pass and the expectation that they would be carried to their destination, or as close as possible, etc. etc. United messed with passengers expectations and this is going to hurt them in future.
My experience with overbooking is that the standard tactic is either a hotel phone call or counter suggestion that "we can't find your name on the passenger list" followed by an offer to book you on the next available flight. The standard response to this, as my father taught me was; "Try someone else, here is my booking confirmation and ticket". I always carry documents in duplicate for just this reason.
I would have reacted exactly the same as the doctor in question - "try someone else".
The only sane responses to this situation would be
(a) Not overbooking - which is a disgraceful policy, visible at any American airport..
(b) Unloading all pax and then reboarding selected pax and compensating the others.
(c) Auctioning seats until enough people took the money.
As for the suggestion that the passenger should have complied with the instruction and then complained to ground staff, pull the other one. Once he was back in the terminal it's "mission is accomplished" for the airline staff. He can threaten to sue, but you and I know that the fine print on the ticket protects the carrier and he has a snowballs chance in hell of recompense.
All he would get is; "here is your new ticket and if you keep complaining I'll have you thrown out or arrested". There is no customer service in the USA, instead there are company peasants inflicting draconian corrupt company policy on customer peasants. That is why I'm never going back.
Had he got out of his seat and exited the aircraft as asked and as the other three passengers did then none of that would have occured.
Self inflicted.
Self inflicted.
However the instruction itself was sufficiently bizarre enough for the passenger to challenge it and that triggered an overly aggressive response from the airport police.
I say "bizarre" because this type of behaviour is unheard of (until now) on an already loaded aircraft although it is not unknown before boarding. To put that another way, every passenger seated on that aircraft had a valid ticket and boarding pass and the expectation that they would be carried to their destination, or as close as possible, etc. etc. United messed with passengers expectations and this is going to hurt them in future.
My experience with overbooking is that the standard tactic is either a hotel phone call or counter suggestion that "we can't find your name on the passenger list" followed by an offer to book you on the next available flight. The standard response to this, as my father taught me was; "Try someone else, here is my booking confirmation and ticket". I always carry documents in duplicate for just this reason.
I would have reacted exactly the same as the doctor in question - "try someone else".
The only sane responses to this situation would be
(a) Not overbooking - which is a disgraceful policy, visible at any American airport..
(b) Unloading all pax and then reboarding selected pax and compensating the others.
(c) Auctioning seats until enough people took the money.
As for the suggestion that the passenger should have complied with the instruction and then complained to ground staff, pull the other one. Once he was back in the terminal it's "mission is accomplished" for the airline staff. He can threaten to sue, but you and I know that the fine print on the ticket protects the carrier and he has a snowballs chance in hell of recompense.
All he would get is; "here is your new ticket and if you keep complaining I'll have you thrown out or arrested". There is no customer service in the USA, instead there are company peasants inflicting draconian corrupt company policy on customer peasants. That is why I'm never going back.
Porch Monkey:
Glad to hear it Monkey, but wait until you do. The change for "Would Sir like this?" to "do what you are told" is fast frightening and usually accompanied by the threat of violence or jail or both.
To put that another way; ever been in an American hotel or store and noticed the instant change in customer service when your credit card is declined?
I'm sure they'll miss you and all your mates. Travel there regularly. NEVER have I had that kind of lack of service, from anyone.
To put that another way; ever been in an American hotel or store and noticed the instant change in customer service when your credit card is declined?
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Sunfish. Nope, never. But then, I take some easy precautions for things like that. For all the tales of woe, I can provide just as many of exceptional service, even from Law Enforcement. I'm just adding my perspective because you only ever hear about the bad things on these types of website. It isn't all doom and gloom as some of you would make out. You have 1 person's experiences. How many people have a different experience from yours every day? How much is a media beat up? Please, can we go back to original programming?
I think it started looking back when someone mentioned the UA incident and that JB could go over there and teach them a thing or two... my response is maybe, but they'd all be making a loss after he'd been there a while LOL
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Let's face it, JB's been missing in action for months, a CEO in name only.
Staff can't wait for him to announce his resignation for whatever bull**** reason. (spend more time with family, pursue other opportunities, blah blah blah)
It's to be hoped that the damage he has caused during his tenure can be repaired, but it may be too little too late.
There will certainly be a lift in morale once JT assumes the role but unless there is any real substance associated with the change, that morale boost will be shortlived.
Staff can't wait for him to announce his resignation for whatever bull**** reason. (spend more time with family, pursue other opportunities, blah blah blah)
It's to be hoped that the damage he has caused during his tenure can be repaired, but it may be too little too late.
There will certainly be a lift in morale once JT assumes the role but unless there is any real substance associated with the change, that morale boost will be shortlived.
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And I don't live in a nanny-State thank you very much. I live in a decent society that doesn't think it is acceptable in the 21st Century (or the 20th for that matter) to see any of its citizens die on the steps of a hospital or be refused treatment because of a dispute between insurance companies.
The really laughable thing is, if that makes us a nanny State where we spend approximately 9% of GDP on health and everyone is covered as opposed to the US who spend nearly 20% and nearly a tenth of the population isn't covered, then I'll go with the moniker happily.
The only developed Western country without universal health care and at least regional pilots, many on 'food stamps' must make you so proud. Certainly Sully isn't a big fan from his testimony to Congress.
Santa Barbara doesn't mean I'm from the States, I'm an Australian (an embarrassed one).
Your previous load of tripe regarding the police state is absolute garbage. I've never experienced the rubbish you try and pass off as a police state, law enforcement in the States is a breath of fresh air compared to the brainwashed garbage we put up with here.
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Have two threads been inadvertently merged, or are half the people on this thread cracked in the head?
What in God's name has that got to do with the 'Nanny State?'
Yet again, nothing to do with the 'Nanny State'
Yet again, nothing to do with the 'Nanny State'
Santa Barbara doesn't mean I'm from the States, I'm an Australian (an embarrassed one).
Your previous load of tripe regarding the police state is absolute garbage. I've never experienced the rubbish you try and pass off as a police state, law enforcement in the States is a breath of fresh air compared to the brainwashed garbage we put up with here.
Yet again, nothing to do with the 'Nanny State'
Yet again, nothing to do with the 'Nanny State'
Santa Barbara doesn't mean I'm from the States, I'm an Australian (an embarrassed one).
Your previous load of tripe regarding the police state is absolute garbage. I've never experienced the rubbish you try and pass off as a police state, law enforcement in the States is a breath of fresh air compared to the brainwashed garbage we put up with here.
Secondly - quote - "...or you just love your nanny state existence." which was obviously a reference to the fact that since my location is Australia, it was a crack about it.
The definition of 'nanny State' (which originated in Britain btw) is a State that is overprotective of it's population, providing things like universal health care.
Then you say it's "...nothing to do with nanny State" so what did you write it for???
Yeh, I'm embarrassed too, embarrassed for the same reasons as you but in reverse. Part of my family is from the United States, you wouldn't know that because you obviously assume things and I don't personally care what your experience is, I was talking about mine and mine is that many American law enforcement are overbearing and trigger happy and the sort of attitude that that imbues is precisely what led to the treatment of Dr Dao.
You claim to be an embarrassed Australian, well, if you are in the US (and not Santa Barbara in QLD), it's a pity your concern for Australia doesn't actually extend to living here. If you do live here, so what, everyone has different experiences and just because yours doesn't accord with others, doesn't mean we all have to agree with you.
Last edited by AerialPerspective; 20th Apr 2017 at 09:54. Reason: sp
