Will demographics kill IR?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Everywhere
Posts: 159
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2016/03/pilot-light?fsrc=scn/fb/te/bl/ed/pilotlightamericaisrunningoutofpeopletoflyitsplanes
''The carrier’s boss cited several reasons for the bankruptcy filing, but chief among them was the “grounding aircraft due to a lack of pilot resources”. But Australia is different right?
''The carrier’s boss cited several reasons for the bankruptcy filing, but chief among them was the “grounding aircraft due to a lack of pilot resources”. But Australia is different right?
Republic Airways | Home
In the arcane world of US commerce, they are still trading and expect to be out of bankruptcy soon (?)
So they clearly have enough pilots to operate their aircraft.
In the arcane world of US commerce, they are still trading and expect to be out of bankruptcy soon (?)
So they clearly have enough pilots to operate their aircraft.
If you read the article the conclusion is that Regionals and Majors would rather cut services than actually do anything about the pay.
Yes because of the high expatriate workforce who can be used as leverage against the locals.
But Australia is different right?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Everywhere
Posts: 159
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
American Airlines gave its workers a raise. Wall Street freaked out.
Another third world airline, in a race to the bottom....
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Everywhere
Posts: 159
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You know Neville I believe you are right, but not because of the reasons you postulate.
Australian pilots are stuck with stories of old, a strike from long ago, desperately clutching a paradigm where they are lucky to have a job...
Supply is globalised now and the Asian contracts are getting very interesting. Not enough to send Qantas packing, HR are correct pilots don't leave...and I would be really interested in how exactly Qantas would flood the markets with expatriates, legally.
Could you please explain the mechanism and how exactly it would work, other than paid shills called Flight Operations managers making inadmissible statements to those they know will spread the word?
I am not sure I understand how exactly the supply would be generated (other than assuming no retaliatory action from affected carriers-salary and condition increases!)
Do you understand how much a compulsory redundancy would cost QF?
If only facts got in the way of fear...
Australian pilots are stuck with stories of old, a strike from long ago, desperately clutching a paradigm where they are lucky to have a job...
Supply is globalised now and the Asian contracts are getting very interesting. Not enough to send Qantas packing, HR are correct pilots don't leave...and I would be really interested in how exactly Qantas would flood the markets with expatriates, legally.
Could you please explain the mechanism and how exactly it would work, other than paid shills called Flight Operations managers making inadmissible statements to those they know will spread the word?
I am not sure I understand how exactly the supply would be generated (other than assuming no retaliatory action from affected carriers-salary and condition increases!)
Do you understand how much a compulsory redundancy would cost QF?
If only facts got in the way of fear...
I grew up on a farm that my father owned. We had two farm workers who each had a house provided as part of their salaries. When I was about 17 years old and times were tough for farmers I was asking my dad questions about our income and expenditure and debt repayments ( interest rates about 15%) and I voiced my opinion that we weren't going so well and what was the point? He thought that in the long run it would be worth it but told me that even if it didn't make him a million bucks ( turns out it was more like five), at least we would have provided several families with a house to raise their kids in a nice rural community.
That concept, that idea that a business is more than just a vehicle to enrich the capital investors, that a business supports communities and feeds the childeren of the workers is important and I'm sure people much smarter than me have named it and written books on it but it's really quite simple. The business has to be hard-nosed enough to remain in existence and turn a profit long term but it also should aim to be a good community member. The current economic structure of global competition and quarterly reporting to the market makes this difficult but eventually we will need to head back in this direction lest the masses rise up.....I think they're already starting to ( Brexit & Trump.)
Edited to add that the above was in response to the AA article.
That concept, that idea that a business is more than just a vehicle to enrich the capital investors, that a business supports communities and feeds the childeren of the workers is important and I'm sure people much smarter than me have named it and written books on it but it's really quite simple. The business has to be hard-nosed enough to remain in existence and turn a profit long term but it also should aim to be a good community member. The current economic structure of global competition and quarterly reporting to the market makes this difficult but eventually we will need to head back in this direction lest the masses rise up.....I think they're already starting to ( Brexit & Trump.)
Edited to add that the above was in response to the AA article.
Supply is globalised now
how exactly Qantas would flood the markets with expatriates
Pilot supply from overseas (to many countries) is restricted by local licence issues.
So most pilots will have no issue moving to Dubai, Abu Dhabi or Dohar and converting their licence. The same with Hong Kong.
However try moving to the EU with an ICAO licence and you are looking at FOURTEEN exams and two flight tests.
A US licence is easier to obtain but the right to work there (green card) is not.
Hardly free movement of labour.
In the early 1980s ANZCERTA came into effect, in the 1990s TTMRA.
In the 1990s, Impulse was crewed mainly by pilots in an external crewing company, with only key positions employed by the airline. That airline got bought out by QF and became Jetstar.
Jetconnect commenced operations in 2002, work choices came in 2006.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Everywhere
Posts: 159
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is not an each way bet!
Of course there will be regulatory obstacles, I am well aware of the EU requirements, but a state carrier (in say the ME) losing a mythical 200 expatriate pilots to a mythical QF 'contract' start up, may well, given the state interest in the carrier home market reduce or eliminate a supply problem in order to rectify any perceived shortage. Regulations are an impediment at some levels, but not absolute. In other words if it happens the rules will be changed....
So my interest is how exactly, other than the usual nameless faceless threats could Qantas deliver it?
Of course there will be regulatory obstacles, I am well aware of the EU requirements, but a state carrier (in say the ME) losing a mythical 200 expatriate pilots to a mythical QF 'contract' start up, may well, given the state interest in the carrier home market reduce or eliminate a supply problem in order to rectify any perceived shortage. Regulations are an impediment at some levels, but not absolute. In other words if it happens the rules will be changed....
So my interest is how exactly, other than the usual nameless faceless threats could Qantas deliver it?
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Australia
Age: 40
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Converting to an EASA licence takes a week. No joke, I've seen it being done. I do not believe that government should finance any private business as that is not their function. Business should thrive on their own merit. One of the lessons from Europe that Australia should take into consideration is that a pilot going straight from flight school to a jet will not cause a decrease in safety. With this, I don't understand why the entry requirements are so high even for the smallest of the operators. If you want experienced pilots, you need to let them fly, there's no way around.
Converting to an EASA licence takes a week. No joke, I've seen it being done. I do not believe that government should finance any private business as that is not their function. Business should thrive on their own merit. One of the lessons from Europe that Australia should take into consideration is that a pilot going straight from flight school to a jet will not cause a decrease in safety. With this, I don't understand why the entry requirements are so high even for the smallest of the operators. If you want experienced pilots, you need to let them fly, there's no way around.
Instead of explaining it to you - why don't you research converting an Oz ATPL to an EASA (you pick the state) ATPL. For extra points, add your type rating onto it.
I understand your frustration with the high entry requirements. It must be difficult for you - after spending massive amounts of money on an EASA MCL course, then being horrified that no one in OZ or the U.S will hire you with only 100 odd hours in an actual aircraft. Despite the experiences of your "mates at Ryan Air".
A week ?
Rui Dias-plain and simple BS on your part. You are at best misinformed-worst case lying! If you don't hold a European issued licence then-unlike ANYWHERE else on the planet where conversion-understandably-requires Air Law and an IRT, EASA require 14 exams plus TRT plus IRT. How do I know-well besides my friends that are doing it so am I -as a current heavy jet TRE with ATPL's from 3 different ICAO contracting states. It is pure protectionism and a money spinner for EASA schools and the organisation itself-where licences can expire rather than be perpetual-a ridiculous concept when currency rules always exist 
Could you please explain the mechanism and how exactly it would work, other than paid shills called Flight Operations managers making inadmissible statements to those they know will spread the word?
I guess the scenario would that the pilots ask for a increase in terms and conditions, company refuses on ideological grounds, starts a prolonged protracted procrastination campaign, feeding tidbits to the media along the way, then starts outsourcing its flying to subcontractors and starts to whittle away the mainline pilot's flying.
As I said before, if Direct Entry commands were on offer you would be absolutely inundated from Australian Citizens who are working overseas. That's before you even look at other options.
This is the extreme end of the scale but it can be done. BHP caved into their industrial demands then replaced them with cheaper labour.
The world’s largest mining company, BHP Billiton Limited (ASX: BHP), has put unions around Australia on notice after it axed Teekay, the union-dominated tugboat provider, and replaced it with Queensland-based Rivtow.
BHP holds the right to operate all tugboat services in the lucrative port of Port Hedland and provided Teekay with the gift of being the sole tugboat operator for many years. Port Hedland is the world’s largest bulk export port that exported around 60% of Australia’s 700 million tonnes of iron ore in 2014.
Despite the slowdown in the mining and resources sectors, in 2014 the tugboat crews decided salaries ranging between $140,000 – $300,000 per year weren’t enough, launched industrial action and threatened to walk off the job. The action was supported by the Maritime Union of Australia, The Australian Institute of Marine and Power Engineers, and the Australian Maritime Officers Union.
At the time, Fortescue Metals Group Limited (ASX: FMG) chief executive Nev Power unleashed a stinging rebuke and said, “there is something fundamentally broken with a system that encourages a small group of employees, with pay and conditions that most Australians would envy, to hold an entire country to ransom.” The tugboat strike would have crippled Fortescue, which exports all of their iron ore out of Port Hedland.
Sometimes people don’t appreciate when they are on a good thing, and unfortunately for Teekay, the industrial action may have been a large part of BHP’s decision to switch tugboat services to Rivtow, despite BHP saying otherwise.
According to an article in The Australian Financial Review, BHP said that “Union affiliation was not a consideration in the decision to award the contract to Rivtow” and that “The contract has been awarded following a competitive tender process for BHP Billion’s largest tugboat fleet based on safety, capability and cost-effectiveness criteria.”
The axing of Teekay is a major warning for militant unions operating in the resources and energy sector and possibly a sign of things to come in the heavily unionised civil construction workforces around Australia.
BHP holds the right to operate all tugboat services in the lucrative port of Port Hedland and provided Teekay with the gift of being the sole tugboat operator for many years. Port Hedland is the world’s largest bulk export port that exported around 60% of Australia’s 700 million tonnes of iron ore in 2014.
Despite the slowdown in the mining and resources sectors, in 2014 the tugboat crews decided salaries ranging between $140,000 – $300,000 per year weren’t enough, launched industrial action and threatened to walk off the job. The action was supported by the Maritime Union of Australia, The Australian Institute of Marine and Power Engineers, and the Australian Maritime Officers Union.
At the time, Fortescue Metals Group Limited (ASX: FMG) chief executive Nev Power unleashed a stinging rebuke and said, “there is something fundamentally broken with a system that encourages a small group of employees, with pay and conditions that most Australians would envy, to hold an entire country to ransom.” The tugboat strike would have crippled Fortescue, which exports all of their iron ore out of Port Hedland.
Sometimes people don’t appreciate when they are on a good thing, and unfortunately for Teekay, the industrial action may have been a large part of BHP’s decision to switch tugboat services to Rivtow, despite BHP saying otherwise.
According to an article in The Australian Financial Review, BHP said that “Union affiliation was not a consideration in the decision to award the contract to Rivtow” and that “The contract has been awarded following a competitive tender process for BHP Billion’s largest tugboat fleet based on safety, capability and cost-effectiveness criteria.”
The axing of Teekay is a major warning for militant unions operating in the resources and energy sector and possibly a sign of things to come in the heavily unionised civil construction workforces around Australia.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Australia
Age: 40
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In the EASA state where I did my licence, yes you can do your exams in one week. There was some Brazilian captains doing it at the time when I was doing my exams as well. When I moved back to Australia I had to do all the exams, so I understand the frustration of those going the opposite way. I just wanted to understand how the system works where, what we can do to improve it by having a constructive dialogue. From what I've read here, no one is happy with the current situation.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Australia
Age: 40
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rui Dias-plain and simple BS on your part. You are at best misinformed-worst case lying! If you don't hold a European issued licence then-unlike ANYWHERE else on the planet where conversion-understandably-requires Air Law and an IRT, EASA require 14 exams plus TRT plus IRT. How do I know-well besides my friends that are doing it so am I -as a current heavy jet TRE with ATPL's from 3 different ICAO contracting states. It is pure protectionism and a money spinner for EASA schools and the organisation itself-where licences can expire rather than be perpetual-a ridiculous concept when currency rules always exist
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: thelodge
Posts: 139
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SWH,
Your actually incorrect too.
It was the workplace Relations act of 1996 that allowed Jetconnect to start. AWA's came about in a "take it or leave it" manner under this 1996 framework as did other changes in workplace legislation. AIPA also did SFA to oppose it at the time either.
These laws were strenthened in 2005 with work choices however they were not non existent pre 2005 as your incorrectly illuding too.
The Labor Party removed these in 2009 with the fair work act.
After the lockout Qantas forced AIPA to binding arbitration by the FULL bench of the fair work commission. The entire bench found the amended agreement to be fair and reasonable. Unanimously.
But I'd argue Qantas pilots as a collective group would be gold medalists in blowing a negotiation amid a global pilot shortage.
Even a "fake news" threat is enough to have pilots offering up limbs to sign a deal from FOMO even if it's lies or rumour from a so called nameless "manager".
I'd hazard a guess the next SH EA that may possibly include A320 replacements will be a blood bath for pilots and a massive win for Qantas.
They are smarter, less arrogant, better at negotiations and understand that pilots will sell their first born for a new jet. Pilots are uniquely weak industrially. Say 89 and half of SH would s($& themselves.
Despite global salaries increasing in first world airlines they will be headed south in OZ domestically.
Here's how it will happen. QF will say If you don't fly it for xxxxx then xxxxx will fly it. Even I f they can't do it legally, that will not matter.
Pilots/AIPA will roll over and deal done.
It's Harder to take sweets from children. Wish it were not the case but sadly it is.
You don't need IR to hold a gun. You'll have pilots lined up volunteering to pull the trigger on themselves.
Your actually incorrect too.
It was the workplace Relations act of 1996 that allowed Jetconnect to start. AWA's came about in a "take it or leave it" manner under this 1996 framework as did other changes in workplace legislation. AIPA also did SFA to oppose it at the time either.
These laws were strenthened in 2005 with work choices however they were not non existent pre 2005 as your incorrectly illuding too.
The Labor Party removed these in 2009 with the fair work act.
After the lockout Qantas forced AIPA to binding arbitration by the FULL bench of the fair work commission. The entire bench found the amended agreement to be fair and reasonable. Unanimously.
But I'd argue Qantas pilots as a collective group would be gold medalists in blowing a negotiation amid a global pilot shortage.
Even a "fake news" threat is enough to have pilots offering up limbs to sign a deal from FOMO even if it's lies or rumour from a so called nameless "manager".
I'd hazard a guess the next SH EA that may possibly include A320 replacements will be a blood bath for pilots and a massive win for Qantas.
They are smarter, less arrogant, better at negotiations and understand that pilots will sell their first born for a new jet. Pilots are uniquely weak industrially. Say 89 and half of SH would s($& themselves.
Despite global salaries increasing in first world airlines they will be headed south in OZ domestically.
Here's how it will happen. QF will say If you don't fly it for xxxxx then xxxxx will fly it. Even I f they can't do it legally, that will not matter.
Pilots/AIPA will roll over and deal done.
It's Harder to take sweets from children. Wish it were not the case but sadly it is.
You don't need IR to hold a gun. You'll have pilots lined up volunteering to pull the trigger on themselves.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Everywhere
Posts: 159
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
After the lockout Qantas forced AIPA to binding arbitration by the FULL bench of the fair work commission. The entire bench found the amended agreement to be fair and reasonable. Unanimously.
But I'd argue Qantas pilots as a collective group would be gold medalists in blowing a negotiation amid a global pilot shortage.
But I'd argue Qantas pilots as a collective group would be gold medalists in blowing a negotiation amid a global pilot shortage.
The facts do not matter, Joyce cannot get out of the A320 NEO...It has to be parked somewhere, It will be foodstamps for QF pilots and Centrelink benefits before AIPA ever did any research to understand the real shortage. An idle threat is enough and they scurry..
The 787 crew rest, despite FWA ratified and contractually agreed to was scuttled by the little fella threatening to send aircraft 4 onward to JQ.
If AIPA had a shred of intellect they would understand the fallacy of anymore JQ expansion and head to FWA and ask them to rule...Glad am not involved.
That is why, that although Neville Nobody doesn't understand the demographics, the pilots are done...Fight tooth and nail for a set of wings, but not for a career path...HR/IR laugh all the way to a long weekend..
SWH,
Your actually incorrect too.
It was the workplace Relations act of 1996 that allowed Jetconnect to start. AWA's came about in a "take it or leave it" manner under this 1996 framework as did other changes in workplace legislation. AIPA also did SFA to oppose it at the time either.
Your actually incorrect too.
It was the workplace Relations act of 1996 that allowed Jetconnect to start. AWA's came about in a "take it or leave it" manner under this 1996 framework as did other changes in workplace legislation. AIPA also did SFA to oppose it at the time either.
It was the evolution of the trade agreement between Australia and New Zealand that has brought about the trans-tasman single aviation market and the mutual recognition of skills and qualifications.
The IR argument you are presenting is nothing more than a red herring, they are not binding on a foreign state. Jetconnect, a New Zealand carrier could have been up and running in the 1980s if Qantas was commercially managed at the time and not run like a quasi government corporation.
