Gay colors?
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About being constantly offended;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceS_jkKjIgo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceS_jkKjIgo
About being constantly offended;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceS_jkKjIgo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceS_jkKjIgo
Nunc est bibendum
Qantas as a public company can do virtually what it likes when it comes to advertising this sort of stuff. Like others have posted, as mere line pilots and engineers there's bugger all influence we have on this issue.
Some others on here have talked about not enjoying flying with LGBTIQ colleagues. Personally I've got no qualms. Like any other colleague they vary from awesome to 'below average' when it comes to my enjoyment of sharing a flight deck. Having fun flying an aeroplane is less about someone's sexual orientation than it is about their personality. Sure we don't tend to swap stories on the many issues that affect someone like me raising kids at school but that's neither here nor there. Some LGBTIQ colleagues are quite interested in what my kids are up to. A few LGBTIQ colleagues have kids having come out later in life and that's cool when we can share that experience of the trials, tribulations and joys of raising kids. In short, no problem. I'm sure my LGBTIQ colleagues would share similar views about flying with me.
The Mardi Gras and wider LGBTIQ political movement has achieved a lot of good. Anything that can reduce the violence perpetrated against people based on how they choose to live their life is a good thing. I'm not a fan of the style of the parade, the promiscuity or the increased risk taking behaviour the parade appears to promote (unsafe sex, drug and alcohol fuelled behviour including violence, etc) but I simply make a choice to not watch it. It does allow me to talk to my kids about our beliefs and values and how they are different to many others in the marketplace.
I disagree that the Mardi Gras is purely a 'cultural' event. At it's concept it was a political rally and I get the impression it remains an important political centrepiece of the LGBTIQ movement. You only need to see the uproar recently over whether to invite the PM to see even a small part of the politics at play. Most people older than 30 would still see it as a political rally masquerading as a cultural event. That makes it quite distinct from floriade or many other purely cultural events.
I disagree that this is simply smart marketing directed at a high spending demographic. About 2 million people attend churches of various denominations every week yet there is no effort to engage them on the issues that are important to them. To deny the political aspect of the stance Qantas has taken here is to deny reality. If it's 'smart marketing' then there are plenty of other groups that Qantas could be targeting. That they don't shows this to be a political act- which is what things dressed up as 'social justice' actually are.
Qantas has sponsored the Mardi Gras for a couple of years now and is vocal in the same sex marriage debate. They've launched a parallel campaign to the Rainbow roo called #equalityis. Interestingly, the video associated with that campaign is playing on TVs near some baggage claim belts. It's the only video of the few I watched the other day that has volume with it- all other videos were silent.
It's the political aspect that I'm disappointed has raised it's head so obviously now in the workplace. I felt somewhat uncomfortable when the 'recognise' Dash 8 was painted (a principle I agree with..... another discussion entirely). I view a company championing political issues similarly to how I view various superstars coming out for or against other political positions- I simply don't care what they think. The other question worth asking is why do they think I care what they have to say on the issue? (More on this point in another post at another time). Of course, I was relatively silent on the Dash 8 recognise campaign so I can't be too surprised that Qantas has continued to champion it's preferred political causes.
Previously Qantas has allowed people time off to attend Mardi Gras, they've sponsored a float and so on. Apart from emails and links to stories this has remained relatively removed from the workplace. I can avoid going to the Mascot campus and seeing the rainbow tail used on the 'Gay380' float from last year's Mardi Gras. This aeroplane though actually IS my workplace. It's hard to avoid seeing this livery when you're flying the jet.
There are a number of people in Qantas (gay, straight, Christian, atheist, Jewish, Muslim, etc) who do not agree with same sex marriage and/or the Mardi Gras for religious, cultural, historical, societal or behavioural reasons. Yet now they're being forced to tacitly support the issue even though they hold strong beliefs to the contrary.
So how do I intend on responding?
1. At some stage I will talk to my manager and highlight the fact that I find this stance by Qantas to be an unwelcome political issue in my workplace- not to the extent that it impacts my work but clearly given the comments on this thread it's a highly charged issue that is occupying brain space amongst both supporters and opponents of the political issue.
2. I did consider whether refusing to fly the jet was an option. Were I to do so I'd need to consult with AIPA as it's no doubt got significant industrial consequences. I'd also need to let my Qantas manager know in advance if that's the road I was going to take. Of course, making that sort of call carries significant potential downside as well with being labelled a 'bigot' the least of my worries.
3. Ultimately though I've decided to fly it. Sure I won't be thrilled about it (for more than just the reasons highlighted above) but hopefully when someone asks me what I think about it (which they have already and I've not flown it yet and I'm sure they will again at some stage) I can explain those reasons and the basis behind them with some depth. That my friends (and some enemies) is the bit that excites me.
Some others on here have talked about not enjoying flying with LGBTIQ colleagues. Personally I've got no qualms. Like any other colleague they vary from awesome to 'below average' when it comes to my enjoyment of sharing a flight deck. Having fun flying an aeroplane is less about someone's sexual orientation than it is about their personality. Sure we don't tend to swap stories on the many issues that affect someone like me raising kids at school but that's neither here nor there. Some LGBTIQ colleagues are quite interested in what my kids are up to. A few LGBTIQ colleagues have kids having come out later in life and that's cool when we can share that experience of the trials, tribulations and joys of raising kids. In short, no problem. I'm sure my LGBTIQ colleagues would share similar views about flying with me.
The Mardi Gras and wider LGBTIQ political movement has achieved a lot of good. Anything that can reduce the violence perpetrated against people based on how they choose to live their life is a good thing. I'm not a fan of the style of the parade, the promiscuity or the increased risk taking behaviour the parade appears to promote (unsafe sex, drug and alcohol fuelled behviour including violence, etc) but I simply make a choice to not watch it. It does allow me to talk to my kids about our beliefs and values and how they are different to many others in the marketplace.
I disagree that the Mardi Gras is purely a 'cultural' event. At it's concept it was a political rally and I get the impression it remains an important political centrepiece of the LGBTIQ movement. You only need to see the uproar recently over whether to invite the PM to see even a small part of the politics at play. Most people older than 30 would still see it as a political rally masquerading as a cultural event. That makes it quite distinct from floriade or many other purely cultural events.
I disagree that this is simply smart marketing directed at a high spending demographic. About 2 million people attend churches of various denominations every week yet there is no effort to engage them on the issues that are important to them. To deny the political aspect of the stance Qantas has taken here is to deny reality. If it's 'smart marketing' then there are plenty of other groups that Qantas could be targeting. That they don't shows this to be a political act- which is what things dressed up as 'social justice' actually are.
Qantas has sponsored the Mardi Gras for a couple of years now and is vocal in the same sex marriage debate. They've launched a parallel campaign to the Rainbow roo called #equalityis. Interestingly, the video associated with that campaign is playing on TVs near some baggage claim belts. It's the only video of the few I watched the other day that has volume with it- all other videos were silent.
It's the political aspect that I'm disappointed has raised it's head so obviously now in the workplace. I felt somewhat uncomfortable when the 'recognise' Dash 8 was painted (a principle I agree with..... another discussion entirely). I view a company championing political issues similarly to how I view various superstars coming out for or against other political positions- I simply don't care what they think. The other question worth asking is why do they think I care what they have to say on the issue? (More on this point in another post at another time). Of course, I was relatively silent on the Dash 8 recognise campaign so I can't be too surprised that Qantas has continued to champion it's preferred political causes.
Previously Qantas has allowed people time off to attend Mardi Gras, they've sponsored a float and so on. Apart from emails and links to stories this has remained relatively removed from the workplace. I can avoid going to the Mascot campus and seeing the rainbow tail used on the 'Gay380' float from last year's Mardi Gras. This aeroplane though actually IS my workplace. It's hard to avoid seeing this livery when you're flying the jet.
There are a number of people in Qantas (gay, straight, Christian, atheist, Jewish, Muslim, etc) who do not agree with same sex marriage and/or the Mardi Gras for religious, cultural, historical, societal or behavioural reasons. Yet now they're being forced to tacitly support the issue even though they hold strong beliefs to the contrary.
So how do I intend on responding?
1. At some stage I will talk to my manager and highlight the fact that I find this stance by Qantas to be an unwelcome political issue in my workplace- not to the extent that it impacts my work but clearly given the comments on this thread it's a highly charged issue that is occupying brain space amongst both supporters and opponents of the political issue.
2. I did consider whether refusing to fly the jet was an option. Were I to do so I'd need to consult with AIPA as it's no doubt got significant industrial consequences. I'd also need to let my Qantas manager know in advance if that's the road I was going to take. Of course, making that sort of call carries significant potential downside as well with being labelled a 'bigot' the least of my worries.
3. Ultimately though I've decided to fly it. Sure I won't be thrilled about it (for more than just the reasons highlighted above) but hopefully when someone asks me what I think about it (which they have already and I've not flown it yet and I'm sure they will again at some stage) I can explain those reasons and the basis behind them with some depth. That my friends (and some enemies) is the bit that excites me.
Nunc est bibendum
PS: Am I offended? No. At home though I can make a choice as to how much about the Mardi Gras I read/ watch. Hard to do that at work these days given the constant publicity in the daily emails and press releases, the gay380 tails around the office and now this jet.
At one time homosexuality was illegal in Australia and prosecutions would result. Later on a blind eye was turned. Next it was legalised but stayed in the closet. Then it came out into the open. Now it is widely accepted.
I'm glad I left before it becomes compulsory.
I'm glad I left before it becomes compulsory.
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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How come I haven't had gender reassignment surgery despite there being gender equality?
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Keg - Well said, as always. Not that I think you will extract much value from this statement, but your sentiment is shared by many amongst the engineering rank and file but I doubt we'd handle things as tactfully or articulate our position as clearly as you can and have.
As far as the effectiveness of this flag thing on an airplane goes - I doubt it is enough to unseat the staunch and stubborn beings that seem to inhibit 'progress' on this particular matter, so the status-quo is likely to remain, albeit, with considerable feather roughage.
I ponder the <commercial> net gain of having this on our airplane... it obviously generates plenty of discussion, but does our organisations openly supportive position on gayness add to or subtract to our bottom line? I guess <and hope> some sort of commercial impact analysis would've been included in the business case prior to painting. I wonder if you can quantify its impact and how you'd do it?
As far as the effectiveness of this flag thing on an airplane goes - I doubt it is enough to unseat the staunch and stubborn beings that seem to inhibit 'progress' on this particular matter, so the status-quo is likely to remain, albeit, with considerable feather roughage.
I ponder the <commercial> net gain of having this on our airplane... it obviously generates plenty of discussion, but does our organisations openly supportive position on gayness add to or subtract to our bottom line? I guess <and hope> some sort of commercial impact analysis would've been included in the business case prior to painting. I wonder if you can quantify its impact and how you'd do it?
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My view is that I really don't give a rats and would only know if I am flying that particular 330 is if I noticed on the walkaround. I have some gay friends but they are not too radical politically (they all fly one way or another) and I think would view the tail art somewhere between couldn't care less to "that's nice".
Thevflag is probably a transfer and will be there for a while and be taken off in a few months/years..
Thevflag is probably a transfer and will be there for a while and be taken off in a few months/years..
Well said Keg, i agree and empathise with your stance and views. Regardless of personal orientation, painting an aircraft to represent gay issues is a political move and in my very humble opinion, inappropriate. Tolerance is key on a personal level but it should go both ways ( no pun intended).
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Keg
I might disagree with you on some things, however, your post is eloquent, honest and you've stated your case extremely well without resorting to abuse.
A very respectful and thoughtful post.
I might disagree with you on some things, however, your post is eloquent, honest and you've stated your case extremely well without resorting to abuse.
A very respectful and thoughtful post.
Australian Airlines and then Qantas always carried large groups of Brethren. Crews would often be pre-briefed when it was known a group was travelling and I have heard of extra stocks of Whiskey being loaded when large groups traveled as that's all they drank.
Not sure if extra Gin and Tonic is loaded on flights headed to Sydney at Mardi Gras time.
Not sure if extra Gin and Tonic is loaded on flights headed to Sydney at Mardi Gras time.
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I have to disagree with you there, Keg.
Same-sex marriage may be a political issue, but LGBTIQ awareness and tolerance is a cultural issue.
Sponsorship of the Gay Mardi Gras would have more to do with the sexual orientation of many of Qantas' employees rather than any political point Qantas as a company is trying to make.
And no, there is no cultural need for Qantas to sponsor your church or religion, as your church goers are not victimised, discriminated against and abused in the way the LGBTIQ community is.
Tolerance can only be achieved slowly, and only through constant exposure. Qantas has chosen to be part of that exposure.
Keg, you may have your beliefs, but you are not a bigot. Unfortunately, there are others still out there who are.
Same-sex marriage may be a political issue, but LGBTIQ awareness and tolerance is a cultural issue.
Sponsorship of the Gay Mardi Gras would have more to do with the sexual orientation of many of Qantas' employees rather than any political point Qantas as a company is trying to make.
And no, there is no cultural need for Qantas to sponsor your church or religion, as your church goers are not victimised, discriminated against and abused in the way the LGBTIQ community is.
Tolerance can only be achieved slowly, and only through constant exposure. Qantas has chosen to be part of that exposure.
Keg, you may have your beliefs, but you are not a bigot. Unfortunately, there are others still out there who are.
Last edited by Derfred; 21st Feb 2017 at 02:12.
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Keg, don't even pretend for a second that Qantas employees with religious beliefs have any kind of the same intellectual or moral standing on their position towards same-sex marriage as those who actually have the ability to reason and understand that those beliefs are not based in any kind of reality.
Thank you to Qantas leadership for continuing to champion and advocate for LGBTI rights and PR. This is both far more morally and intellectually sound than the position that any of your employees with 'religious beliefs' might hold, which continue to cause negative mental and physical health outcomes for LGBTI people world wide.
Thank you to Qantas leadership for continuing to champion and advocate for LGBTI rights and PR. This is both far more morally and intellectually sound than the position that any of your employees with 'religious beliefs' might hold, which continue to cause negative mental and physical health outcomes for LGBTI people world wide.
Nunc est bibendum
G'day Derfred, sadly I suspect you're right with your final statement.
I'm not going to try and 'out- victim' the LGBTIQ community here. Clearly they've been on the end of some pretty vicious attacks over the decades. I do want to pick up on one issue though.
Not at the moment no- at least not widespread. However if you ask the Park Royal hotel near Sydney Airport in the aftermath of the ACL sponsored meeting scheduled there last year, or the staff at ACL who receive weekly threats against their welfare, I think they may disagree. When threats of violence are made against Christian groups for simply meeting together to discuss SSM and an individual (admittedly mentally ill one) attempts to firebomb the ACL offices in Canberra then I start to wonder whether more tolerance (not necessarily agreement) is needed on all sides of the discussion.
Still, it's nice to be able to agree to disagree politely on this forum and without any adverse name calling or animosity. Heck, in many respects this discussion has been far more civil than a couple of others that I was involved with prior to Christmas. Maybe there is hope for us all yet!
I'm not going to try and 'out- victim' the LGBTIQ community here. Clearly they've been on the end of some pretty vicious attacks over the decades. I do want to pick up on one issue though.
..... as your church goers are not victimised, discriminated against and abused in the way the LGBTIQ community is.
Still, it's nice to be able to agree to disagree politely on this forum and without any adverse name calling or animosity. Heck, in many respects this discussion has been far more civil than a couple of others that I was involved with prior to Christmas. Maybe there is hope for us all yet!