Tiger Airways A320 incident Cairns
Nunc est bibendum
Icarus, ran some dummy numbers for the A330. Same weather conditions and relatively high weights for both. Flex 40 for B5 and Flex 33 for B4.
At lower weights, Flex 52 for B5 and Flex 47 for B4.
Probably makes a difference and the runway pretty close if you use B5 figures for B4.
At lower weights, Flex 52 for B5 and Flex 47 for B4.
Probably makes a difference and the runway pretty close if you use B5 figures for B4.
From dark memory [big buses] here; Derate = Vmcg variation. Flex= balanced field length. For example, if taking off from a short runway, takeoff performance may be improved by limiting to a specified derate level and thereby reducing required Vmcg and associated length requirements... Usually it was the A340, rather than A330 with runway surface contamination I recall.
Could be wrong, but hope that helps.
In any case- well done CNS ATC and no smear against the crew!!!
Could be wrong, but hope that helps.
In any case- well done CNS ATC and no smear against the crew!!!
Speeds may be similar but with the higher flex temp it'll take a lot more runway distance to get to the same speed. Hence the oh ****...
Max flex on the bus is ISA +55.
I've almost done it at the Gold Coast once. Dark stormy night. Tired. TS closing in. Cleared to backtrack. Saw the displaced threshold and almost turned onto it before realising the mistake and kept going. The threat was ATC who gave the backtrack for an expedient departure.
Those in glass houses.
Max flex on the bus is ISA +55.
I've almost done it at the Gold Coast once. Dark stormy night. Tired. TS closing in. Cleared to backtrack. Saw the displaced threshold and almost turned onto it before realising the mistake and kept going. The threat was ATC who gave the backtrack for an expedient departure.
Those in glass houses.
Yes not a hard quick mistake to make imo!
Go team
Go team
So the crew had a line up clearance prior well prior to their planned int; probably had them in the rolling mindset and with the bloody airbus need of checklists and stuff right there perhaps distracted them resulting in the wrong int
...with the bloody airbus need of checklists and stuff...
Our lot introduced an additional checklist step several years ago:
"TAKEOFF RUNWAY............CONFIRM"
The idea being to confirm the aircraft is lining up on the correct runway AND intersection.
The need for it to be done post line up clearance is a distraction.
And yes my airline has a verbal check of rwy/int etc too.
I'd suggest it's bloody important and hardly a distraction. In our case the 'takeoff runway' check is one of the last items in the checklist. We complete the checklist 'down to the line' well before reaching the runway and then 'below the line' (4 items) approaching the holding point.
Crew would had had at least 16hrs rest before the last signoff if they flew the previous day as Cairns is the first leg of the arvo duty.
Tiger Brisbane base is hardly fatiguing. They only fly between 7-930pm.
Tiger Brisbane base is hardly fatiguing. They only fly between 7-930pm.
Takeoff runway on the checklist makes me cringe . If you've made the mistake as a crew, confirmation bias may in fact dictate that you answer where you think you are and confirm it as a crew.
It's an arse covering addition to the checklist to protect flight ops management.
It's an arse covering addition to the checklist to protect flight ops management.
I'd suggest it's bloody important and hardly a distraction. In our case the 'takeoff runway' check is one of the last items in the checklist. We complete the checklist 'down to the line' well before reaching the runway and then 'below the line' (4 items) approaching the holding point.
Take off runway confirm and indicate the direction you intend to take off. In low visibility it's possible to turn the wrong way on entering the runway, particularly with an intersection departure.
Originally posted by The Green Goblin
Takeoff runway on the checklist makes me cringe . If you've made the mistake as a crew, confirmation bias may in fact dictate that you answer where you think you are and confirm it as a crew.
Takeoff runway on the checklist makes me cringe . If you've made the mistake as a crew, confirmation bias may in fact dictate that you answer where you think you are and confirm it as a crew.
Originally posted by maggot
And id suggest it doesnt have to be in a checklist, formaly run as you're lining up. Easily incorporated as an SOP.
And id suggest it doesnt have to be in a checklist, formaly run as you're lining up. Easily incorporated as an SOP.
I have read with interest the many posts re this incident at CNS. Being a KISS man for a career spanning 48 years, all the theory re FLEX, TOGA CONFIG, does not matter a toss once something goes wrong. All a pilot can do is fly the aircraft once he mentally identifies the situation.
Pilots don"t make intentional errors, so perhaps it would be better to focus on what led up to the error in the first place, so hopefully preventing a reoccurrence, rather than the "wotifs"
Pilots don"t make intentional errors, so perhaps it would be better to focus on what led up to the error in the first place, so hopefully preventing a reoccurrence, rather than the "wotifs"
Nunc est bibendum
Its dumb. Add in light flicking, clear calls, rwy/int check/callout, brake fan switching/temp check and maybe a radio call or two... it certainly adds up for an obviously critical time you'd think itd be better to be more simple.
Oh well
Keg,
You're right stating that Airbus stipulates doing it after line up clearance but the company has given us approval in FCOM to do it prior, so that there is no further distractions. Keep in mind Airbus also says your tray table goes away after a line up clearance is received.
That's particularly useful in the days of ATC asking 'confirm ready immediate? After having called ready.
I also make the point of matching the movement area guidance sign with what we've written on the TOLD card SE there is less potential for error.
You're right stating that Airbus stipulates doing it after line up clearance but the company has given us approval in FCOM to do it prior, so that there is no further distractions. Keep in mind Airbus also says your tray table goes away after a line up clearance is received.
That's particularly useful in the days of ATC asking 'confirm ready immediate? After having called ready.
I also make the point of matching the movement area guidance sign with what we've written on the TOLD card SE there is less potential for error.
If you can't flick some lights on and get through the five standard Airbus items on the checklist from lineup clearance to rolling, something's wrong.
Willie
No it doesn't. The expanded FCOM says "stowed" not "stow". That implies ensuring that it already has been. It is not a prescriptive instruction to do it then.
Willie
Keep in mind Airbus also says your tray table goes away after a line up clearance is received.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 187
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Willie, the part of your post that touches on the tray table is a bit misleading; the SOP you refer to actually refers to the last point by which the table has to be stowed - not a directive as to the one-and-only point that the pilot is allowed to stow it. I stow mine before pushback, others do it whenever they want to, so long as it is done prior to reading 'below the line' on the before take-off checklist.
TOLD card??? In an Airbus??? Good God!!!
TOLD card??? In an Airbus??? Good God!!!