Melbourne Air Traffic Control
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If there is no WX holding then our airline plans for ATC hold + fixed reserve + variable (which may already be gone if held low, etc.)
Unless we put on extra that is it.
If ATC want us to have more fuel then they should mandate it!
Haven't done much holding for some time though.
Unless we put on extra that is it.
If ATC want us to have more fuel then they should mandate it!
Haven't done much holding for some time though.
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Bugger that, if you start sequencing aircraft according to how much fuel they chose (not) to carry, it's not going to lead to a particularly desirable conclusion.
If so-called professional pilots can't work out how much fuel they need to carry then maybe they need to start re-thinking their profession.
Or call a fuel emergency and put your airline on the front page of the newspaper. It's your call. Not ATC's problem.
If so-called professional pilots can't work out how much fuel they need to carry then maybe they need to start re-thinking their profession.
Or call a fuel emergency and put your airline on the front page of the newspaper. It's your call. Not ATC's problem.
This was overseas, no emergency call, no front page, no "call the tower" even. I doubt it could get that bad here.
ATC had vectored us around for nearly an hour with zero info before I made the call to land regardless of them!
If fuel is low, I MAKE it ATCs problem! (As a professional pilot should!)
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We worked out how much fuel we needed to carry based on advisory traffic holding information and weather forecasts ten hours ago. If we turn up and due to some unexpected development in the intervening several hours there is now bulk holding, it’s not really our fault we haven’t turned up with hours of extra gas. I think it’s quite reasonable to advise holding endurance if major delays have developed.
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If someone is capable of substantially less holding than everyone else, bump them up the queue?
Some hub carriers outside Australia provide their short-haul flights with extra holding fuel when major holding is expected to enable their long-haul arrivals to go in front, as it's much cheaper to carry the fuel on a shorter flight, as long as ATC plays ball.
Some hub carriers outside Australia provide their short-haul flights with extra holding fuel when major holding is expected to enable their long-haul arrivals to go in front, as it's much cheaper to carry the fuel on a shorter flight, as long as ATC plays ball.
Cause that won't get exploited
LOL
LOL
Surely that decision would be better handled by your company ops? Delaying the wrong flight by an extra 30 minutes (or whatever) might prove rather unpopular. Swapping same company flights does happen occasionally but in the cases I've seen the company nominates the loser.
An arrival slot swapping arrangement within an airline is a novel idea that could well have benefits from time to time for the major users of an airport. However any arrangement that favours the aircraft that turns up at the holding pattern with the least amount of fuel is a terrible idea.
A considered crew puts on extra gas, accepts the payload penalty, wears the added fuel burn but then cops a delay as another operator jumps the queue as they didn't bother to put the fuel on. Can't see that plan working.
A considered crew puts on extra gas, accepts the payload penalty, wears the added fuel burn but then cops a delay as another operator jumps the queue as they didn't bother to put the fuel on. Can't see that plan working.
I've had a slot swapped in our favour from a generous 737 crew when arriving in vapours from la
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Originally Posted by Beer Baron
A considered crew puts on extra gas, accepts the payload penalty, wears the added fuel burn but then cops a delay as another operator jumps the queue as they didn't bother to put the fuel on.
Ryanair investigation prompts call for new fuel guidelines
Although the Madrid-based Civil Aviation Accident and Incident Investigation Commission (CIAIAC) confirmed that Ryanair had not breached air safety regulations, it noted that the airline operates flights with minimal fuel to save money, which “leaves none for contingencies”, the industry magazine Travel Weekly reports.
It added that Ryanair’s policy was putting it at an economic advantage, which was encouraging other airlines to follow suit – a situation which might result in airports facing “simultaneous emergency declarations for lack of fuel”.
It added that Ryanair’s policy was putting it at an economic advantage, which was encouraging other airlines to follow suit – a situation which might result in airports facing “simultaneous emergency declarations for lack of fuel”.
Last edited by CurtainTwitcher; 19th Jul 2017 at 01:37. Reason: added Valencia link
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Another one that I do hear occasionally is "large delays lower levels available" on first contact. Makes a HUGE difference to fuel and workload to level off at 300 rather than blast up to FLRidiculous only to come back down.
). But everything is pretty sturdy at about 250-200 from ML, so I tend to leave the smaller delays until then. If the delays are 10+, some of us will jump in early to give a time before props level out or to the jets with a "min speed, lower levels available." I've seen plenty of jets with enough time absorb the whole 10+ mins when that's done. It makes everyone life easier I hope.Is there an amount of delay that you would like to be given the option for lower levels? Delays are pretty crap, not much we can do to change them, but we can at least make it a bit easier for you guys.
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That makes me happy to hear. Us enroute controllers don't have any influence on delay, but if we can make your life easier when delays get crap, all the better I guess. Although we toe a bit of a fine line with delays, if we get in early before everything else has settled, the chance of it changing is pretty high (especially if they go to LAHSO at short notice ). But everything is pretty sturdy at about 250-200 from ML, so I tend to leave the smaller delays until then. If the delays are 10+, some of us will jump in early to give a time before props level out or to the jets with a "min speed, lower levels available." I've seen plenty of jets with enough time absorb the whole 10+ mins when that's done. It makes everyone life easier I hope.
Is there an amount of delay that you would like to be given the option for lower levels? Delays are pretty crap, not much we can do to change them, but we can at least make it a bit easier for you guys.
). But everything is pretty sturdy at about 250-200 from ML, so I tend to leave the smaller delays until then. If the delays are 10+, some of us will jump in early to give a time before props level out or to the jets with a "min speed, lower levels available." I've seen plenty of jets with enough time absorb the whole 10+ mins when that's done. It makes everyone life easier I hope.Is there an amount of delay that you would like to be given the option for lower levels? Delays are pretty crap, not much we can do to change them, but we can at least make it a bit easier for you guys.
I'll speak for the A320, but the same applies "mostly" to all jets.
The holding "sweet spot" is FL250, up to FL300 where above compressibility can substantially increases the fuel burn at "holding speeds" by a small percent, as we need to fly at faster air speeds to stay aloft. This usually equates to 1% more up to FL 300, 4% FL350 and 11% FL398.
Conversely, 5% increase FL200 and below.
However this doesn't always mean descent is preferable. With Anti Ice on full, the penalty is between 5% and 7%.
The goal in general is for Linear holding I.e. Holding in a straight line as every turn increases fuel burn, so selecting an altitude whereby this can be achieved for a given TAS and wind forecast is the preference.
To do this, personally, I would want a minimum holding time. the actual holding time would be the beez neez, but the absolute minimum we are going to expect, on first contact, on climb.
"Minimum holding time of 10 minutes, lower altitude available, speed reduction approved"
Just helps limit the negative consequences of the system we have to live with.
The holding "sweet spot" is FL250, up to FL300 where above compressibility can substantially increases the fuel burn at "holding speeds" by a small percent, as we need to fly at faster air speeds to stay aloft. This usually equates to 1% more up to FL 300, 4% FL350 and 11% FL398.
Conversely, 5% increase FL200 and below.
However this doesn't always mean descent is preferable. With Anti Ice on full, the penalty is between 5% and 7%.
The goal in general is for Linear holding I.e. Holding in a straight line as every turn increases fuel burn, so selecting an altitude whereby this can be achieved for a given TAS and wind forecast is the preference.
To do this, personally, I would want a minimum holding time. the actual holding time would be the beez neez, but the absolute minimum we are going to expect, on first contact, on climb.
"Minimum holding time of 10 minutes, lower altitude available, speed reduction approved"
Just helps limit the negative consequences of the system we have to live with.
Last edited by Bula; 20th Jul 2017 at 07:53.
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What happened this morning with Hainan landing on 34 and vacating at Charlie? The wind was up to a thirty knot northerly and at least four aircraft waiting to take off. Virgin ended up being sent around. No fire trucks or anything. No doubt this slowed everything up. Not sure why he didn't take Echo. Anyone know?
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What happened this morning with Hainan landing on 34 and vacating at Charlie? The wind was up to a thirty knot northerly and at least four aircraft waiting to take off. Virgin ended up being sent around. No fire trucks or anything. No doubt this slowed everything up. Not sure why he didn't take Echo. Anyone know?
Attempts were made to get them to vacate via the crossing runway after missing Echo but to no avail.
There may be a response from a company with reasons for an occurrence but not always and I'd say we'll probably never know in this case.
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Thanks for that. They certainly didn't display any situational awareness given the que at the the threshold! How does this sort of incident affect flow management?
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Some vectors for the next 3-4 aircraft usually to make some extra space for the extra landing is common in the event of a missed approach.
In terms of what happens further out and whether flow control is impacted, i'd have to leave it to an approach/flow/arrivals controller to answer that.
