Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Melbourne Air Traffic Control

Old 7th Jul 2017, 11:46
  #321 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 787
The intent of the requirement to report ready approaching the holding point would be that you are not on the Tower frequency while you are still the responsibility of the SMC. I have heard Tower tell aircraft to go back to SMC when they are still on E but yet to cross A (this is at Melbourne) because taxiing traffic is still on SMC. I have also heard aircraft request that SMC tell Tower that they are ready! Ready in turn is another of my pet hates as there is no such call.

If ATC decide that another aircraft is going to be given a takeoff clearance before you then there is nothing you can do to change that decision.
Lookleft is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2017, 12:07
  #322 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 518
Originally Posted by EPIRB View Post
The AIP states at or approaching the holding point. Personally I think that it is unprofessional to call early. I have seen this happen in Melbourne at intersection Juliet when SMC had cleared aircraft X to Juliet who had been on taxiway Alpha and the tower cleared aircraft Y to Juliet who called ready whilst taxiing down Sierra. Aircraft Y had to break suddenly when X taxied in front of it as both thought they had right of way. Why would you call ready early if you still have taxiways to cross? Not a clever thing to do. Rules are there for a purpose - safety. Everybody gets their fair turn.
A legal question. In the above case, if aircraft X had to break suddenly because aircraft Y had prematurely called ready and both the SMC and TWR controllers had cleared both aircraft to intersection Juliet, who is responsible if a flight attendant in aircraft X was moving around the cabin and fell over and was injured due to the sudden breaking?
EPIRB is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2017, 12:12
  #323 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 518
Originally Posted by Lookleft View Post
Ready in turn is another of my pet hates as there is no such call.
Have to agree with you on that one. I've never heard anyone report ready out of turn. Of course ATC is going to clear you for take off in turn. What a stupid call.
EPIRB is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2017, 18:08
  #324 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia
Age: 39
Posts: 28
Originally Posted by EPIRB View Post
A legal question. In the above case, if aircraft X had to break suddenly because aircraft Y had prematurely called ready and both the SMC and TWR controllers had cleared both aircraft to intersection Juliet, who is responsible if a flight attendant in aircraft X was moving around the cabin and fell over and was injured due to the sudden breaking?
The controller ideally should have made clear who was giving way or who was first to the holding point before the situation reaches this stage. Very occasionally, if they've missed the conflict or been caught up with other traffic there may be uncertainty.

In this case hopefully the pilot would query who was giving way before sudden braking was required. Separation on taxiways is a joint controller/pilot responsibility.
DukeBen is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2017, 22:12
  #325 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Melbourne
Age: 69
Posts: 774
Did the aircraft break when the brakes were applied?
fujii is offline  
Old 8th Jul 2017, 01:40
  #326 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 518
Originally Posted by fujii View Post
Did the aircraft break when the brakes were applied?
I'm just a dumb, white, hetro sexual male.
EPIRB is offline  
Old 8th Jul 2017, 18:19
  #327 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: 41S174E
Age: 54
Posts: 2,766
Don't beat yourself up, I know a dumb yellow bi-sexual female who makes the same mistake. She's the best wife I've ever had.
framer is offline  
Old 9th Jul 2017, 09:35
  #328 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Santa Barbara
Posts: 912
bi-sexual female
She's the best wife I've ever had.
You lucky bastard...........
The name is Porter is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2017, 00:08
  #329 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 787
Heard the following exchange recently at Melbourne:

Aircraft: "Qantas 787 could you pass on to the Tower we are ready."
ATC: "You are big boys now, do it yourself"

The QF aircraft was taking the whole calling ready first thing to new levels of ridiculous but the ATC response was childish. This is the same controller who will jump down the microphone and berate you for any small infraction but doesn't want to acknowledge his (and it is a he) own mistakes such as giving taxi instructions using the wrong flight number.
Lookleft is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2017, 02:19
  #330 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Oztrailia
Posts: 2,896
One of my pet hates is waiting until we either stop or slow down at a holding point/taxiway intersection before then giving us a clearance to continue.
Please if at all possible don't do that, especially on A crossing 27, it takes a while and a lot of power to get a heavy moving again.


One particular evening you did it to me 3 times after landing on 16 and on each occasion it wasn't necessary.

Generally however I find YMML ATC good.



Last edited by ACMS; 11th Jul 2017 at 02:33.
ACMS is online now  
Old 11th Jul 2017, 02:28
  #331 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Harbour Master Place
Posts: 662
One of my pet hates is waiting until you either stop or slow down at a holding point/taxiway intersection before then giving clearance to continue.
Especially when you have tried to anticipate it by managing the speed. Bonus points for the inevitable "aircraft on short final EXPEDITE"
CurtainTwitcher is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2017, 04:01
  #332 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Karratha,Western Australia
Age: 40
Posts: 448
I don't work at ML so I can't say for sure why the stopping happens but a likely cause is the ADC being busy with something else. The SMC has to coordinate the crossing, so if the ADC is tied up doing something else, that could be why you stop for no apparent reason. I'd like to think that most of us do try to keep you moving as much/often as we possibly can
Awol57 is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2017, 04:29
  #333 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Harbour Master Place
Posts: 662
Originally Posted by Awol57 View Post
I don't work at ML so I can't say for sure why the stopping happens but a likely cause is the ADC being busy with something else. The SMC has to coordinate the crossing, so if the ADC is tied up doing something else, that could be why you stop for no apparent reason. I'd like to think that most of us do try to keep you moving as much/often as we possibly can
Yes, sorry, I didn't mean to come across as having a go, I realise that a controller may have dozens of balls in the air at anyone time, most of them unseen to us.

It's just frustrating sometimes when you see the picture developing and attempt to put yourself in the position to maximise the opportunity to cross or keep it rolling for takeoff, then things come to a stop... immediately followed by go go go, hurry hurry hurry.
CurtainTwitcher is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2017, 06:36
  #334 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Oz
Posts: 1,087
Does anyone know when the taxiway works are meant to be completed? China has built new airports in the same timeframe diggers are still playing with dirt on Alpha.

Are they just milking the taxpayer?
PoppaJo is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2017, 07:00
  #335 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Earth
Posts: 95
Originally Posted by PoppaJo View Post
Does anyone know when the taxiway works are meant to be completed? China has built new airports in the same timeframe diggers are still playing with dirt on Alpha.

Are they just milking the taxpayer?
Entire airports and supporting infrastructure (High speed rail, highways bridges etc) have appeared out of the ocean in the time it takes Australia to play with some sand.
unobtanium is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2017, 10:37
  #336 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Sydney
Posts: 470
Originally Posted by PoppaJo View Post
.
Are they just milking the taxpayer?
Is there any doubt?

I'll bet the bill for compliance alone would build a whole airport in any other country.

With any infrastructure project compliance with dreamt up rules, red tape and bureaucracy makes up roughly one third of the total cost of the project.

The safety, security, greenies, local government departments, state government departments federal government departments all parasites with their fingers in the till.
IsDon is offline  
Old 12th Jul 2017, 06:50
  #337 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Oz
Posts: 528
The safety, security, greenies, local government departments, state government departments federal government departments all parasites with their fingers in the till
Now there is a well balanced argument!!
topdrop is offline  
Old 12th Jul 2017, 07:17
  #338 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The world's most liveable city
Posts: 231
Originally Posted by Bula
in my humble opinion, Alpha turning into Echo is approaching the holding point and fair game.

That's bull.
So is turning from Echo onto Alpha (for 34) and calling ready also bull?

You all do it guys, so don't get too narky when the opposition does it to you.

In all seriousness, it's usually first come, first served. But there are times when, to reduce overall delays we'll go out of sequence. For example, traffic inbound to T1 with a queue building for departure at Papa. To help SMC out we might try and clear those ones first.

Or we'll go with left turner/right turner if we can apply visual separation upwind til the radar guys get 3nm. We can then clear the second acft when the first is 1800m down the runway and airborne. We can do that with traffic on the same SID but we can't guarantee visual separation all the way to Sydney. Or a heavy may have called ready first but with traffic on final, we would only get the heavy away, but if we go Medium first then Heavy, we'll get both away.

In 27/34 mode (with deps to the NE off 34), it's better sequencing to go with a 27 dep then a 34 then a 27 etc to ensure acft don't get bunched up on similar tracks.

With the A380's runway occupancy time, its best to get them going in a suitable gap - we might not get another for a while, so it causes a bit of pain short term with wake turbulence but at least they're out of the way.

Believe me, we DO NOT give preferential treatment to anybody. All we are interested in is getting everyone off our frequency as soon as possible!
RAC/OPS is offline  
Old 12th Jul 2017, 15:07
  #339 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 189
It's just frustrating sometimes
And you're on PPRuNe whining about it. Good work.
Pera is offline  
Old 13th Jul 2017, 10:32
  #340 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Oztrailia
Posts: 2,896
Well actually there are ATCO's contributing here in addition to Pilots so it is indeed a good place to ask and discuss.
ACMS is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.