The end for VA?
Because to fix a problem you have to admit there is one and Virgin never do that. You could also assume both carriers PR machines would be working flat out trying to work out how to put a positive spin on this so their workers don't get confused.....
It's wrong to assume that the market will become flooded by Chinese carriers. Beijing doesn't like their carriers competing directly with one another, so not everyone is allowed onto the Shanghai and Beijing route. Virgin, on the other hand, has the rights to Beijing, which is what appeals to HNA Group. They can link into Hainan Airlines/Capital Airlines' massive hub in Beijing, and only have Qantas and Air China to compete with.
This agreement will open up new city pairs, and it will be the Chinese carriers going nuts, but that's all good for Australia's domestic carriers.
This agreement will open up new city pairs, and it will be the Chinese carriers going nuts, but that's all good for Australia's domestic carriers.
Beijing doesn't like their carriers competing directly with one another, so not everyone is allowed onto the Shanghai and Beijing route
That's what I meant Metro, reduce the massive wages they are paying to the expat narrow body guys.
Massive wages to who? $300,000 USD is not a particularly big wage and I expect more wage pressure in China.
http://www.afr.com/leadership/career...0161204-gt3uzx
To earn over 400K you are either going to have a business of your own, or you are going to be a specialist doctor. Judges don't even crack 400K. If you look at the ATO data set the majority of Air Transport Professionals fall into the sub $180k bracket. The average of the higher pilot income bracket is around 250k
Last edited by neville_nobody; 7th Dec 2016 at 05:04.
Not arguing about what Pilots are worth here just saying that 400K is a massive salary by society standards. Then also think about how hard it is to become one of those professions. You are going to be in the top percentile academically already then spend about 15 years of your life studying.
Massive wages to who? $300,000 USD is not a particularly big wage and I expect more wage pressure in China.
300k USD net is massive for a 737 skipper where I'm from.
Judges cannot kill 400 people at once. pilots get paid for that responsibility.
The Ovation of the Seas is in Australian waters at present. Maximum number of passengers is 4,905 plus around 2,500 crew. I wonder what the Captains salary is.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Look up and wave
Posts: 359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TBM legend, pilots are there getting paid more than the ATCers to protect the 400 odd pax. ATC has never killed a passenger. It's the pilots that let one through the keeper if ATC make a mistake and the pilots don't pick it up.
Just saying.
Just saying.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Melbourne Australia
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That just over Au$400, 000!! If you think that 400k is 'not a particularly big wage' then I would suggest you are delusional. Check out the list of highest earners just published by the ATO.
Australia's top 50 highest paying jobs | afr.com
To earn over 400K you are either going to have a business of your own, or you are going to be a specialist doctor. Judges don't even crack 400K. If you look at the ATO data set the majority of Air Transport Professionals fall into the sub $180k bracket. The average of the higher pilot income bracket is around 250k
Australia's top 50 highest paying jobs | afr.com
To earn over 400K you are either going to have a business of your own, or you are going to be a specialist doctor. Judges don't even crack 400K. If you look at the ATO data set the majority of Air Transport Professionals fall into the sub $180k bracket. The average of the higher pilot income bracket is around 250k
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 751
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To earn over 400K you are either going to have a business of your own, or you are going to be a specialist doctor.
A 300,000 USD "package" may seem a lot to a low cost Australian pilot but it isn't really big money by international standards as a pilot and especially not an expat.
Legacy pilots in the states and other parts of Asia were making in excess of this a decade ago.
It's a package remember. Could include anything and I haven't cared to look. Also, the current $USD/AUD exchange rate may be relevant here but for many it is not. 300K USD is just that.
There's talk that the money is going to have to increase further.
Legacy pilots in the states and other parts of Asia were making in excess of this a decade ago.
It's a package remember. Could include anything and I haven't cared to look. Also, the current $USD/AUD exchange rate may be relevant here but for many it is not. 300K USD is just that.
There's talk that the money is going to have to increase further.
I thought I worked with the worlds most arrogant guy. Turns out he's a champion compared to you Gnads man 
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Friends, it's time to get back on topic. We all know there is a pilot shortage (and a forum for it), talk to the source of those in recruitment if you doubt that.
VA is losing pilots and about to lose many many more. The leaders at this airline (and country) remind me of Hilary and her cronies, the game has changed. The establishment is over, very over folks. And until they adapt, stop talking fluff and lining their pockets and start putting Australian pilots first it's over.
What does this government decision mean for VA A330 expansion plans? Are the Chinese doing what they do best and putting China first? What is the future for VA? In my opinion, this government decision is not making aviation great again in Australia.
- - -
"Make Aviation Great Again"
VA is losing pilots and about to lose many many more. The leaders at this airline (and country) remind me of Hilary and her cronies, the game has changed. The establishment is over, very over folks. And until they adapt, stop talking fluff and lining their pockets and start putting Australian pilots first it's over.
What does this government decision mean for VA A330 expansion plans? Are the Chinese doing what they do best and putting China first? What is the future for VA? In my opinion, this government decision is not making aviation great again in Australia.
- - -
"Make Aviation Great Again"
I thought I worked with the worlds most arrogant guy. Turns out he's a champion compared to you Gnads man
300 or 400, either way a great income if you don't have to live in a polluted, overcrowded 5hithole I reckon
* Fallout stretches from Delta in U.S. to Korean Air in Asia
* China “hardly scratching the surface” of its potential: CAPA
Killing four empty hours at Guangzhou airport waiting for a China Southern connection to Sydney may not be everyone’s idea of fun. For Gina Capella, it was a no-brainer.
The 43-year-old Boston resident and her friend saved hundreds of dollars last year choosing China Southern Airlines Co. over a direct flight from Seoul with Korean Air Lines Co. or Asiana Airlines Inc. “We didn’t mind the layover because it was so much cheaper,” she said. “Like, almost half the price.”
Chinese airlines are flooding the world with some of the lowest long-haul fares ever seen -- and delivering a hammer blow to foreign carriers trying to keep up. From Delta Air Lines Inc. and American Airlines Group Inc. in the U.S., to Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd. and Korean Air, many operators are feeling the squeeze from the extended reach of mainland Chinese carriers.
They don’t just offer cheap fares on routes long-dominated by national airlines like Korean Air. They’re also adding hundreds of overseas flights from little-known Chinese cities to airports all over the world.
“Chinese airlines are still hardly scratching the surface of their potential, not just in China, but globally,” said Will Horton, a Hong Kong-based analyst at the CAPA Centre for Aviation. “If an airline today cannot compete with or grow alongside a Chinese airline, the future will be bleak.”
According to CAPA, mainland Chinese airlines have opened 75 long-haul markets since 2006, led by Air China Ltd. and Hainan Airlines Co. More than two-thirds of those routes opened only in the past two years. China’s three biggest carriers -- Air China, China Eastern Airlines Corp. and China Southern -- are state-controlled and listed in Hong Kong and Shanghai.
Cathay, where first-half profit sank 82 percent as Chinese travelers bypassed its Hong Kong base, is now conducting what it calls a “critical review” of its business.
Delta President Glen Hauenstein told analysts in October that China “continues to be challenged” as capacity growth outpaces demand. American Airlines President Robert D. Isom said the same month there’s “continued weakness in China” as excess capacity seeps into the airline’s new services from Los Angeles to Hong Kong, Haneda, Sydney and Auckland.
A round trip with China Eastern between New York and Bangkok, via Shanghai, costs $570.06, according to Webjet.com. The same trip with United Airlines through Hong Kong costs $714.80. Flying from Los Angeles to Hong Kong with China Airlines is one third cheaper than with American Airlines.
“U.S. airlines dominated the China-U.S. route in the past, but now it’s the Chinese airlines,” said Chen Suming, an analyst at Shanghai Chongyang Investment Management Co. “Most of the new air travelers are from China, not the U.S.”
China Southern is selling flights from Sydney to Seoul, via Guangzhou, for $588.30. That’s more than one third cheaper than flying direct with Qantas Airways Ltd. Getting from London to Hanoi in Vietnam, also via Guangzhou, costs just $830 with China Southern. British Airways Plc charges $1,216.50.
Price isn’t everything. Cathay and Singapore Airlines Ltd. both have a five-star rating for product and service from airline rating system Skytrax. Hainan Airlines Co. is the only mainland Chinese carrier among the world’s nine top-rated airlines. National carrier Air China has three stars.
There’s little sign the inundation will end. International air routes in China jumped 35 percent to 660 last year, the Civil Aviation Administration of China said. By 2021, Chinese will be the top overseas visitors to the U.S., according to the U.S. government.
For years, the easiest way to get to a second- or third-tier city on the Chinese mainland was to fly to long-established transit centers such as Hong Kong, Shanghai or Beijing and then take a local connection. Now a new world order is emerging. Chinese carriers in these cities are sidestepping hubs such as Singapore and Hong Kong and flying straight to destinations abroad. That poses the biggest threat to airlines such as Cathay and Singapore Air.
This month, Hainan started flying non-stop to Las Vegas from Beijing, its 10th route to North America. Hainan, controlled by billionaire Chen Feng, also operates at least eight flights to European cities. Meanwhile, British Airways is halting its London-Chengdu service in January because it’s not viable.
Underlying Desire
Demographics partly explains the proliferation of flights from China and the lop-sided, mainly-Chinese flow of passengers. Chengdu has a population of more than 14 million. Even the population of Xiamen, on China’s southeast coast across from Taiwan, is nearing Sydney’s 4.3 million.
“While it might not work for foreign carriers to fly to second-tier cities like Chengdu and Xiamen, it will still work for the Chinese because the originating market is very big,” said K. Ajith, an analyst at UOB Kay Hian Pte in Singapore. “There’s an underlying desire to travel.”
That’s borne out in forecasts for new aircraft. Chinese airlines will need 6,810 new planes valued at $1 trillion in the next two decades to meet travel demand, according to Boeing Co.
Meanwhile, U.S. airlines are seeking to bolster ties with Chinese carriers. Delta invested $450 million in China Eastern in July 2015 for a 3.6 percent stake. United Continental Holdings Inc. this year signed a deal with Air China to improve connections and enhance frequent flier benefits between the airlines.
To be sure, rising fuel prices, spurred by OPEC’s production cuts in November, may hold back some of the overseas expansion by China Southern and China Eastern, said Ajith, the analyst at UOB Kay Hian.
“They’re profitable, they’ve had good cost control and they’ve benefited from low fuel prices,” he said. “The only issue is what happens when fuel prices rise?’’ At that point, they may switch resources to domestic routes, where they have more price control, he said.
While capacity growth on routes between the U.S. and Shanghai, Beijing or Guangzhou has been “off the charts,” Chinese airlines have “maxed out” under the current bilateral agreement, said Kris Kelley, an airline analyst at Janus Capital Management.
All the same, Australia’s government announced on Dec. 4 an agreement with China to remove all capacity restrictions between the two nations. In October, Britain agreed to double the number of flights between U.K. cities and China.
Chinese airlines are improving their business class, too, giving them confidence to compete around the world, according to Horton, the analyst at CAPA. With every new generation of aircraft, that level of service only improves, he said.
* China “hardly scratching the surface” of its potential: CAPA
Killing four empty hours at Guangzhou airport waiting for a China Southern connection to Sydney may not be everyone’s idea of fun. For Gina Capella, it was a no-brainer.
The 43-year-old Boston resident and her friend saved hundreds of dollars last year choosing China Southern Airlines Co. over a direct flight from Seoul with Korean Air Lines Co. or Asiana Airlines Inc. “We didn’t mind the layover because it was so much cheaper,” she said. “Like, almost half the price.”
Chinese airlines are flooding the world with some of the lowest long-haul fares ever seen -- and delivering a hammer blow to foreign carriers trying to keep up. From Delta Air Lines Inc. and American Airlines Group Inc. in the U.S., to Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd. and Korean Air, many operators are feeling the squeeze from the extended reach of mainland Chinese carriers.
They don’t just offer cheap fares on routes long-dominated by national airlines like Korean Air. They’re also adding hundreds of overseas flights from little-known Chinese cities to airports all over the world.
“Chinese airlines are still hardly scratching the surface of their potential, not just in China, but globally,” said Will Horton, a Hong Kong-based analyst at the CAPA Centre for Aviation. “If an airline today cannot compete with or grow alongside a Chinese airline, the future will be bleak.”
According to CAPA, mainland Chinese airlines have opened 75 long-haul markets since 2006, led by Air China Ltd. and Hainan Airlines Co. More than two-thirds of those routes opened only in the past two years. China’s three biggest carriers -- Air China, China Eastern Airlines Corp. and China Southern -- are state-controlled and listed in Hong Kong and Shanghai.
Cathay, where first-half profit sank 82 percent as Chinese travelers bypassed its Hong Kong base, is now conducting what it calls a “critical review” of its business.
Delta President Glen Hauenstein told analysts in October that China “continues to be challenged” as capacity growth outpaces demand. American Airlines President Robert D. Isom said the same month there’s “continued weakness in China” as excess capacity seeps into the airline’s new services from Los Angeles to Hong Kong, Haneda, Sydney and Auckland.
A round trip with China Eastern between New York and Bangkok, via Shanghai, costs $570.06, according to Webjet.com. The same trip with United Airlines through Hong Kong costs $714.80. Flying from Los Angeles to Hong Kong with China Airlines is one third cheaper than with American Airlines.
“U.S. airlines dominated the China-U.S. route in the past, but now it’s the Chinese airlines,” said Chen Suming, an analyst at Shanghai Chongyang Investment Management Co. “Most of the new air travelers are from China, not the U.S.”
China Southern is selling flights from Sydney to Seoul, via Guangzhou, for $588.30. That’s more than one third cheaper than flying direct with Qantas Airways Ltd. Getting from London to Hanoi in Vietnam, also via Guangzhou, costs just $830 with China Southern. British Airways Plc charges $1,216.50.
Price isn’t everything. Cathay and Singapore Airlines Ltd. both have a five-star rating for product and service from airline rating system Skytrax. Hainan Airlines Co. is the only mainland Chinese carrier among the world’s nine top-rated airlines. National carrier Air China has three stars.
There’s little sign the inundation will end. International air routes in China jumped 35 percent to 660 last year, the Civil Aviation Administration of China said. By 2021, Chinese will be the top overseas visitors to the U.S., according to the U.S. government.
For years, the easiest way to get to a second- or third-tier city on the Chinese mainland was to fly to long-established transit centers such as Hong Kong, Shanghai or Beijing and then take a local connection. Now a new world order is emerging. Chinese carriers in these cities are sidestepping hubs such as Singapore and Hong Kong and flying straight to destinations abroad. That poses the biggest threat to airlines such as Cathay and Singapore Air.
This month, Hainan started flying non-stop to Las Vegas from Beijing, its 10th route to North America. Hainan, controlled by billionaire Chen Feng, also operates at least eight flights to European cities. Meanwhile, British Airways is halting its London-Chengdu service in January because it’s not viable.
Underlying Desire
Demographics partly explains the proliferation of flights from China and the lop-sided, mainly-Chinese flow of passengers. Chengdu has a population of more than 14 million. Even the population of Xiamen, on China’s southeast coast across from Taiwan, is nearing Sydney’s 4.3 million.
“While it might not work for foreign carriers to fly to second-tier cities like Chengdu and Xiamen, it will still work for the Chinese because the originating market is very big,” said K. Ajith, an analyst at UOB Kay Hian Pte in Singapore. “There’s an underlying desire to travel.”
That’s borne out in forecasts for new aircraft. Chinese airlines will need 6,810 new planes valued at $1 trillion in the next two decades to meet travel demand, according to Boeing Co.
Meanwhile, U.S. airlines are seeking to bolster ties with Chinese carriers. Delta invested $450 million in China Eastern in July 2015 for a 3.6 percent stake. United Continental Holdings Inc. this year signed a deal with Air China to improve connections and enhance frequent flier benefits between the airlines.
To be sure, rising fuel prices, spurred by OPEC’s production cuts in November, may hold back some of the overseas expansion by China Southern and China Eastern, said Ajith, the analyst at UOB Kay Hian.
“They’re profitable, they’ve had good cost control and they’ve benefited from low fuel prices,” he said. “The only issue is what happens when fuel prices rise?’’ At that point, they may switch resources to domestic routes, where they have more price control, he said.
While capacity growth on routes between the U.S. and Shanghai, Beijing or Guangzhou has been “off the charts,” Chinese airlines have “maxed out” under the current bilateral agreement, said Kris Kelley, an airline analyst at Janus Capital Management.
All the same, Australia’s government announced on Dec. 4 an agreement with China to remove all capacity restrictions between the two nations. In October, Britain agreed to double the number of flights between U.K. cities and China.
Chinese airlines are improving their business class, too, giving them confidence to compete around the world, according to Horton, the analyst at CAPA. With every new generation of aircraft, that level of service only improves, he said.