Pilot shortage
Thread Starter
If you haven't seen it it is worth reading the thread over in Terms and Endearment about the Ryanair pilot shortage. Apparently they have cancelled 2000flights and offered pilots 12000€ to stay on.
I have lost all desire to work for an airline in Australia after watching the hiring & training process of some friends and workmates, of a huge US regional jet airline. If you meet their low minimum requirements (like 1500TT 75 ME) , you fire off an email. A few days later you get an email saying they want a skype interview. The interview I observed was very cordial and friendly, encouraging even, yet thorough on the technical stuff. They understood that someone who was an instructor in Australia wouldn’t be 100% up to speed on USA procedures. They didn’t care that it was only instructing the candidate had done. It was like they were trying to find a way the candidate could get through the interview, they WANTED the candidate to get through…..numerous times they said “we really want you to join our team, we are a great place to work”.
The training was tough, standards were high, but the instructors were friendly and really wanted the candidate to get the highest performance level possible, very much a collage type atmosphere – read fun. Support all round, but make no mistake, standards are high. The line training captains were more of the same. Friendly and encouraging without the inflated egos often found in Australia. I now have over 10 friends and acquaintances checked to line and flying in the biggest game in the world….in jets, in weather I can’t even imagine.
After reading here about experiences in the hiring process alone (being on a hold file for 2 years then being told you have to re-apply), and how some airlines treat their staff, especially at one often mentioned turbo prop regional in Oz, I’m more than happy to stay a lowly instructor…………sorry airlines in Australia, I’m just not interested any more.
The training was tough, standards were high, but the instructors were friendly and really wanted the candidate to get the highest performance level possible, very much a collage type atmosphere – read fun. Support all round, but make no mistake, standards are high. The line training captains were more of the same. Friendly and encouraging without the inflated egos often found in Australia. I now have over 10 friends and acquaintances checked to line and flying in the biggest game in the world….in jets, in weather I can’t even imagine.
After reading here about experiences in the hiring process alone (being on a hold file for 2 years then being told you have to re-apply), and how some airlines treat their staff, especially at one often mentioned turbo prop regional in Oz, I’m more than happy to stay a lowly instructor…………sorry airlines in Australia, I’m just not interested any more.
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,674
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A change was on the way the moment the baby boom was born.
That generation has to retire and eventually cease to exist. There never has been sufficient people to replace the biggest generation in history.
It comes down to respect, after all companies exist as a collective because together people accomplish more than we ever can alone. With hordes of HR (human remains) dictating policy in hiring and 'talent management' and infecting organsiations with a never ending desire to drive down unit cost, they exist not to further the collective effort, but rather their own empire's survival.
With Qantas' Joyce pulling a measly AUD$24.8 million for a group revenue that has gone down in real terms, as did luckily the fuel price, the division of the pie has been away from employees to 'executives' and their minions.Not just in aviation.
This paradigm shift (supply shortage) has been a long time coming and put simply with such a huge cost to learn to fly, an extended period of time until employable by airlines, a continued erosion or work life balance and less compensation for losing that balance, people make rational decisions are choose something else. If memory serves correctly when the HECS fees rose exponentially for Veterinary science in Australian universities, enrollments plummeted.
Management adversarial IT models have served their proponents well. Dismantling the apparatus of HR/IT will take time, but O'Leary was a pioneer of the adversarial model and is trumpeted by airline managers the world over. Australia's Jetstar model was set up with precisely that intent in mind: Minimum union oversight, adversarial, not 'accommodative' relations and practices designed to lower labour unit cost. CAO limits are targets, all in the name of productivity.
As I understand it, OLeary told shareholders he can take leave off pilots to keep things flying as the employment relationship allows him to do it.I wonder whether his pilots will be accommodate more adversarial conduct?
Air New Zealand under Rob Fyfe, Gordon Bethune at Continental and of course Southwest Airlines they don't behave towards people as this model dictates, their unit labour cost may be higher, but their group productivity is far higher. Treating people with respect does far more than accountants can ever count.
That generation has to retire and eventually cease to exist. There never has been sufficient people to replace the biggest generation in history.
and how some airlines treat their staff, especially at one often mentioned turbo prop regional in Oz, I’m more than happy to stay a lowly instructor…………sorry airlines in Australia, I’m just not interested any more.
With Qantas' Joyce pulling a measly AUD$24.8 million for a group revenue that has gone down in real terms, as did luckily the fuel price, the division of the pie has been away from employees to 'executives' and their minions.Not just in aviation.
This paradigm shift (supply shortage) has been a long time coming and put simply with such a huge cost to learn to fly, an extended period of time until employable by airlines, a continued erosion or work life balance and less compensation for losing that balance, people make rational decisions are choose something else. If memory serves correctly when the HECS fees rose exponentially for Veterinary science in Australian universities, enrollments plummeted.
Management adversarial IT models have served their proponents well. Dismantling the apparatus of HR/IT will take time, but O'Leary was a pioneer of the adversarial model and is trumpeted by airline managers the world over. Australia's Jetstar model was set up with precisely that intent in mind: Minimum union oversight, adversarial, not 'accommodative' relations and practices designed to lower labour unit cost. CAO limits are targets, all in the name of productivity.
As I understand it, OLeary told shareholders he can take leave off pilots to keep things flying as the employment relationship allows him to do it.I wonder whether his pilots will be accommodate more adversarial conduct?
Air New Zealand under Rob Fyfe, Gordon Bethune at Continental and of course Southwest Airlines they don't behave towards people as this model dictates, their unit labour cost may be higher, but their group productivity is far higher. Treating people with respect does far more than accountants can ever count.
Ozgrade3,
Nice to hear your friends and acquaintances have found a pleasant experience here. No one actually comes out ahead by abusing people in training. And while my personal experience over the years is somewhat out of date, I trained many places here in the USA and never had a toxic experience. It's not part of the av culture here generally.
As for the application/interview mechanism, there's always room for mistreatment in any country and while it doesn't routinely happen here it's not unheard of. Once one gets away from the cubicle droids, they may find a positive experience.
So, you gonna take the plunge yourself ?
Nice to hear your friends and acquaintances have found a pleasant experience here. No one actually comes out ahead by abusing people in training. And while my personal experience over the years is somewhat out of date, I trained many places here in the USA and never had a toxic experience. It's not part of the av culture here generally.
As for the application/interview mechanism, there's always room for mistreatment in any country and while it doesn't routinely happen here it's not unheard of. Once one gets away from the cubicle droids, they may find a positive experience.
So, you gonna take the plunge yourself ?
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Perth
Posts: 305
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The training was tough, standards were high, but the instructors were friendly and really wanted the candidate to get the highest performance level possible, very much a collage type atmosphere – read fun. Support all round, but make no mistake, standards are high. The line training captains were more of the same. Friendly and encouraging without the inflated egos often found in Australia. I now have over 10 friends and acquaintances checked to line and flying in the biggest game in the world….in jets, in weather I can’t even imagine.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Asia
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
QF will have to re-examine the way they recruit in the very near future if they want to compete for pilots with any real experience especially an ATPL.
The USA has woken up and now recruiting heavily for their regionals for now...
Much more about to happen all over the world especially if you have any type of ATPL. I wish I was a young bloke again!...
British Airways and Lufthansa have recently decided to reassess applicants as soon as only after 6 months if they had made the assessment centre, and only 3 months if they had a go on the sim.
L.B
The USA has woken up and now recruiting heavily for their regionals for now...
Much more about to happen all over the world especially if you have any type of ATPL. I wish I was a young bloke again!...
British Airways and Lufthansa have recently decided to reassess applicants as soon as only after 6 months if they had made the assessment centre, and only 3 months if they had a go on the sim.
L.B
I’m in Europe at the moment and Ryanair want 500 pilots in the next 6 months.
Cobham take note.
Cobham take note.
Why Cobham specifically?
There is no interview for an expat Captain in China. If you can pass the medical, written and licence verification process you have the job, get through the line training and you are all set.
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,674
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why Cobham specifically?
So how it works is that a contractor/subsidiary will be quietly whispered about prior to the introduction of a new type or contract negotiation. If has been this way in an adversarial or at best accommodated IR models environment with notable but few exceptions.
- The intent being to spook pilots introducing a staking horse. Former Qantas CFO Gregg detailed a lot of it in a parliamentary hearing in Canberra.
- Timed with a downturn in the business cycle allows IR to drive through cost savings
Cobham is likely to be the airline Qantas uses this time around and of course JQ went from the original 23 aircraft to be bigger than the parent. The problem for Qantas and IR is that if pilots actually do some homework and realise the supply shortage is real, then the game is up.
IR will be betting heavily that the ghosts of 1989 are still in the cockpits of aircraft, where fear of redundancy, rather than a pilot workforce cognisant of their importance in the company and the relative scarcity of their skill set to face off against.
The model of adversarial IR is broken, demographically, my suspicion is that O'Leary knows it.
Only solution for some operators to keep flying will be to hire expats.
Getting suitably experienced check and chief pilots for the bottom end of town, particularly for the CAR 217 operatos is the major problem at present. Job pages on the AFAP website clearly confirms that. Isn't hard to work out who is having problems, lots of the same operators advertising for the same positions every few months.
Getting suitably experienced check and chief pilots for the bottom end of town, particularly for the CAR 217 operatos is the major problem at present. Job pages on the AFAP website clearly confirms that. Isn't hard to work out who is having problems, lots of the same operators advertising for the same positions every few months.
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sydney
Age: 43
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thread Starter
If Jetstar is arranging work permits for Canadians and Brits to fly the dash8 in NZ permanently, does that mean that pilot is on some sort of skills shortages list?
That would do my head in if I was banging around in a Bongo for GBA or Sun Air.
That would do my head in if I was banging around in a Bongo for GBA or Sun Air.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Oz
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
framer
Replace "Pilot" with "Pilot willing to put up with the truly crap T&C's at J* props" then you're probably not too far wrong.
Almost two years after J*NZ started flying props, they are still relying on Qlink Captains to keep their (reduced) schedule operating.
Crew are still leaving faster than they can be trained.
If Jetstar is arranging work permits for Canadians and Brits to fly the dash8 in NZ permanently, does that mean that pilot is on some sort of skills shortages list?
Almost two years after J*NZ started flying props, they are still relying on Qlink Captains to keep their (reduced) schedule operating.
Crew are still leaving faster than they can be trained.
There will always be someone willing to scratch away in the antipodean salt mines for bread and water. At least for a bit until they catch the dangled residency carrot.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: AUS
Posts: 236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 265
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't honestly know if JQ ever actually became bigger than it's parent, but it was certainly planned to be. Boston Bruce was quoted as saying JQ would rapidly grow to 400 aircraft in the Asia Pacific alone. Until he got sacked for admitting to the board that it would never actually make money.
But by that time he'd earned enough money to retire, so who cares? See the AJ bonus thread.
But by that time he'd earned enough money to retire, so who cares? See the AJ bonus thread.
I'm surprised by all this talk of jobs with US Regionals flying Jets and how awesome their selection process and training system is...aren't these the same companies notorious for low salaries and pilots living on food stamps. Or has the pay improved dramatically in recent years? I understand cost of living in the US outside of the major cities is substantially cheaper than here which would go some way to making it more attractive but our overall quality of life here is much better (Healthcare/Schools/Universities).
By allowing Aussie pilots to fly over there, they've opened up the pool of suitable applicants and surely this keeps downward pressure on wages. Same with the old 457 program here in Australia (which I believe has just kicked off again for Pilots in "regional" areas).
By allowing Aussie pilots to fly over there, they've opened up the pool of suitable applicants and surely this keeps downward pressure on wages. Same with the old 457 program here in Australia (which I believe has just kicked off again for Pilots in "regional" areas).
I dont think pay has improved but the simple fact is they need pilots. I believe the E3 visa states from the employer that they will not pay the expats any less than the locals.
Yes, we can go on about cost of living and conditions etc but most of the folk making the jump over are getting straight on to a jet. Its the opportunity people are going over for.
I don't think there is too much downward pressure on wages. Continued pilot shortage or more specifically (shortage of experienced pilots) will create more demand, more jobs and more pay. As we have been seeing the last 18+months some definite movement finally in the oceanic region
Yes, we can go on about cost of living and conditions etc but most of the folk making the jump over are getting straight on to a jet. Its the opportunity people are going over for.
I don't think there is too much downward pressure on wages. Continued pilot shortage or more specifically (shortage of experienced pilots) will create more demand, more jobs and more pay. As we have been seeing the last 18+months some definite movement finally in the oceanic region
I'm surprised by all this talk of jobs with US Regionals flying Jets and how awesome their selection process and training system is...aren't these the same companies notorious for low salaries and pilots living on food stamps. Or has the pay improved dramatically in recent years? I understand cost of living in the US outside of the major cities is substantially cheaper than here which would go some way to making it more attractive but our overall quality of life here is much better (Healthcare/Schools/Universities).
By allowing Aussie pilots to fly over there, they've opened up the pool of suitable applicants and surely this keeps downward pressure on wages. Same with the old 457 program here in Australia (which I believe has just kicked off again for Pilots in "regional" areas).
By allowing Aussie pilots to fly over there, they've opened up the pool of suitable applicants and surely this keeps downward pressure on wages. Same with the old 457 program here in Australia (which I believe has just kicked off again for Pilots in "regional" areas).