Pilot shortage
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Trying to lure (cheaper) newcomers, just as mentioned in proceeding posts. Problem is the Management have their head in the sand in denial of Insurances increasing from the rise of "pilot error" accidents (alluded to in my previous page 45 post link)
Happy Landings.
Happy Landings.
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To a point.
Experienced crew can give you both economy AND safety though... if you work with them/have them onside!
There are many ways an experienced pilot can save the company huge $$ in operations which "junior burgers" can only dream of... they may try but often fail or scare themselves and pax! Downwind landings prevalent in Indonesia a classic example.
Experienced crew can give you both economy AND safety though... if you work with them/have them onside!
There are many ways an experienced pilot can save the company huge $$ in operations which "junior burgers" can only dream of... they may try but often fail or scare themselves and pax! Downwind landings prevalent in Indonesia a classic example.
Insurances increasing from the rise of "pilot error" accidents (alluded to in my previous page 45 post link)
With great respect, that is prejudice speaking.
Accident rates are NOT going up, let alone so called "pilot error" accident rates. Further, there is no statistical record that shows that "inexperienced" pilots dominate what few accidents there are.
And, in any event, there is no general rise in insurance rates.
Tootle pip!!
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Sorry but we must agree to disagree.
You might call in prejudice but myself and many others call it realism... the information is out there!
Difference of opinion is expected on here and that's what the Forums are for.
There IS a rise in Pilot Error accidents, though overall accident rates have dropped and it's a safer industry for now.
While there has been a significant reduction in
catastrophic loss events in recent decades, unsurprisingly
plane crashes remain the major cause of loss for the
aviation sector in terms of number of insurance claims
generated (23%) and their subsequent value (37%)..
"The report found that an estimated 70% of fatal accidents in commercial aviation operations are due to human error"
Here's abit more bed time reading for you... and here... and another one.
Enough spoon feeding for tonight.
You might call in prejudice but myself and many others call it realism... the information is out there!
Difference of opinion is expected on here and that's what the Forums are for.
There IS a rise in Pilot Error accidents, though overall accident rates have dropped and it's a safer industry for now.
While there has been a significant reduction in
catastrophic loss events in recent decades, unsurprisingly
plane crashes remain the major cause of loss for the
aviation sector in terms of number of insurance claims
generated (23%) and their subsequent value (37%)..
"The report found that an estimated 70% of fatal accidents in commercial aviation operations are due to human error"
Here's abit more bed time reading for you... and here... and another one.
Enough spoon feeding for tonight.
Last edited by Chocks Away; 4th Apr 2018 at 07:33.
Thread Starter
Hmmmmm, why are these pesky pilots making so many errors? Tell them we’re going to make them do more online courses from their laptops..... and while you’re there, jiggle their rosters around a bit more will you, that should make them straighten up and fly right.
Certainly, we never hear about the millions of times a day the pilots intervene to stop one getting rolled up do we? Best they roll out pilotless jets asap!
Good idea framer.
Good idea framer.
Last edited by Berealgetreal; 4th Apr 2018 at 19:35.
Chocks Away
It would be nice to only employ "experienced" pilots, but where do you suggest they get their "experience"?
In Europe for example there is no great GA pool of experienced pilots or large ex Military to recruit from. Therefore for many years now many airlines have recruited a large proportion of their new hires from reputable flying schools.
In my UK airline many 250 plus hour cadet pilots have joined and flown with complete safety on 737/A320 etc. aircraft, after the correct route flying mentoring . We also do not go down the S/O Cruise Pilot scenario. All pilots are trained and released to line flying as fully qualified to operate on a two man flight deck.
Many are now Captains on 777/787/747/A380. after gaining more "experience"
They all had the required regulatory "experience" after training and released to the Line. We have no safety problem at all. Obviously further experience/skills are accrued with time.
Or perhaps you can give me the alternate statistics.
It would be nice to only employ "experienced" pilots, but where do you suggest they get their "experience"?
In Europe for example there is no great GA pool of experienced pilots or large ex Military to recruit from. Therefore for many years now many airlines have recruited a large proportion of their new hires from reputable flying schools.
In my UK airline many 250 plus hour cadet pilots have joined and flown with complete safety on 737/A320 etc. aircraft, after the correct route flying mentoring . We also do not go down the S/O Cruise Pilot scenario. All pilots are trained and released to line flying as fully qualified to operate on a two man flight deck.
Many are now Captains on 777/787/747/A380. after gaining more "experience"
They all had the required regulatory "experience" after training and released to the Line. We have no safety problem at all. Obviously further experience/skills are accrued with time.
Or perhaps you can give me the alternate statistics.
Last edited by cessnapete; 4th Apr 2018 at 11:26.
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I don't know 'pete. Modify the Licencing fiasco to allow a more global exchange of flight crew to where they're needed (as if that's going to happen).
Experience comes from exposure, yes, in well mentored environments as you mentioned, if not gained through GA exposure. That equation has been turned upside-down in many airlines though, particularly in "special" Australia (for the many reasons covered by Rated De & others here previously).
I know of plenty of experienced professionals knocking on the door of Australia but who are getting shunned by HR & misguided management theories, going for the "junior burgers" instead (heck, not even with cheese either :-) )
P.s. Will we see an increase in retirement age? Some airlines let you fly as long as you meet your Class 1 Medical, aka AirNZ.
Experience comes from exposure, yes, in well mentored environments as you mentioned, if not gained through GA exposure. That equation has been turned upside-down in many airlines though, particularly in "special" Australia (for the many reasons covered by Rated De & others here previously).
I know of plenty of experienced professionals knocking on the door of Australia but who are getting shunned by HR & misguided management theories, going for the "junior burgers" instead (heck, not even with cheese either :-) )
P.s. Will we see an increase in retirement age? Some airlines let you fly as long as you meet your Class 1 Medical, aka AirNZ.
Last edited by Chocks Away; 5th Apr 2018 at 01:52.
To think you can have citizenship, passport, language and experience on the exact jet type but can’t work without completing 14 exams shows how backward it is.
Certainly air law, met and some cross cultural crm differences would be needed but other than that the job is identical.
Certainly air law, met and some cross cultural crm differences would be needed but other than that the job is identical.
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To think you can have citizenship, passport, language and experience on the exact jet type but can’t work without completing 14 exams shows how backward it is.
Certainly air law, met and some cross cultural crm differences would be needed but other than that the job is identical.
Certainly air law, met and some cross cultural crm differences would be needed but other than that the job is identical.
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I don't know 'pete. Modify the Licencing fiasco to allow a more global exchange of flight crew to where they're needed (as if that's going to happen).
Experience comes from exposure, yes, in well mentored environments as you mention. That equation has been turned upside-down in many airlines though, particularly in "special" Australia (for the many reasons covered by Rated De & others here previously).
I know of plenty of experienced professionals knocking on the door of Australia but who are getting shunned by HR & misguided management theories, going for the "junior burgers" instead (heck, not even with cheese either :-) )
P.s. Will we see an increase in retirement age? Some airlines let you fly as long as you meet your Class 1 Medical, aka AirNZ.
Experience comes from exposure, yes, in well mentored environments as you mention. That equation has been turned upside-down in many airlines though, particularly in "special" Australia (for the many reasons covered by Rated De & others here previously).
I know of plenty of experienced professionals knocking on the door of Australia but who are getting shunned by HR & misguided management theories, going for the "junior burgers" instead (heck, not even with cheese either :-) )
P.s. Will we see an increase in retirement age? Some airlines let you fly as long as you meet your Class 1 Medical, aka AirNZ.
Yes Tankengine, for me it's the single most disappointing thing about this career. I guess as one poster points out, it protects their flying schools and allows them to pump out cadets no end. Very expensive over there and also very common.
Chocks away,
All your reading list does, and no surprise to me, is reinforce you own prejudices. A rather tenuous grasp on statistical analysis just helps you reinforce your own views.
As you have admitted, accident rates are going down, not up.
Strange as it may be to you, a reduction in (loosely) "other causes" resulting in an increase in the proportion of "human error" causes, and an absolute increase in "human error/pilot error" are not the same thing.
In the real world, and excluding niche risks, aviation hull insurance rates have not generally been going up, and any reason for volatility is usually fairly obvious.
And, by the way, I have been in the aviation business, including some interesting experience in GA insurance, for quite a while --- the sharp end of the business. I hardly need spoon feeding.
Finally, the revered Captain Dan Maurino, late of ICAO, would tell you that ALL/100% of aviation accidents are human factors accidents.
Tootle pip!!
PS: I am well acquainted with former Indian Minister of Civil Aviation, Praful Patel, as it turns out, I would suggest he is not a very good source for wisdom on air safety matters, let alone accident causes.
All your reading list does, and no surprise to me, is reinforce you own prejudices. A rather tenuous grasp on statistical analysis just helps you reinforce your own views.
As you have admitted, accident rates are going down, not up.
Strange as it may be to you, a reduction in (loosely) "other causes" resulting in an increase in the proportion of "human error" causes, and an absolute increase in "human error/pilot error" are not the same thing.
In the real world, and excluding niche risks, aviation hull insurance rates have not generally been going up, and any reason for volatility is usually fairly obvious.
And, by the way, I have been in the aviation business, including some interesting experience in GA insurance, for quite a while --- the sharp end of the business. I hardly need spoon feeding.
Finally, the revered Captain Dan Maurino, late of ICAO, would tell you that ALL/100% of aviation accidents are human factors accidents.
Tootle pip!!
PS: I am well acquainted with former Indian Minister of Civil Aviation, Praful Patel, as it turns out, I would suggest he is not a very good source for wisdom on air safety matters, let alone accident causes.
Last edited by LeadSled; 6th Apr 2018 at 06:05. Reason: PS added.
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Read what I actually said, NOT what you think I said... there is a big difference:
There IS a rise in Pilot Error accidents, though overall accident rates have dropped.
You miss the mark on your other points too, which contradict amoung other Industry Insurers, the one link which I did give, to Allianz Global Corporate's "Global Aviation Safety Study". Hull Insurance rates ARE going up... "in the real world" :-)
The Indian article? Yes point noted. It's just one example/article of hundreds.
As mentioned, we agreee to disagree.
It's Friday, Happy Landings
(PS The "spoon feeding" wasn't just for you it was for the many hundreds following this topic.)
There IS a rise in Pilot Error accidents, though overall accident rates have dropped.
You miss the mark on your other points too, which contradict amoung other Industry Insurers, the one link which I did give, to Allianz Global Corporate's "Global Aviation Safety Study". Hull Insurance rates ARE going up... "in the real world" :-)
The Indian article? Yes point noted. It's just one example/article of hundreds.
As mentioned, we agreee to disagree.
It's Friday, Happy Landings
(PS The "spoon feeding" wasn't just for you it was for the many hundreds following this topic.)
Last edited by Chocks Away; 6th Apr 2018 at 06:39.
Chocks away,
I hope you have better references that the ones in your previous post??
And, by the way, popular media love "pilot error", but for professional purposes it is a bit passe.
Tootle pip!!
I hope you have better references that the ones in your previous post??
And, by the way, popular media love "pilot error", but for professional purposes it is a bit passe.
Tootle pip!!
I did see a presentation from a very large airline in a country where visual approaches are quite routine.
Their incidence of unstable & stuffed up approaches was quite clearly seasonal. Many more in the summer than the winter. And guess when they do more visual approaches...
That's the type of safety statistic that has to be overcome to let pilots "fly" more often. Sadly I think the automation dependency has a long way to go (read more accidents) before there is a mandated manual flight policy.
Their incidence of unstable & stuffed up approaches was quite clearly seasonal. Many more in the summer than the winter. And guess when they do more visual approaches...
That's the type of safety statistic that has to be overcome to let pilots "fly" more often. Sadly I think the automation dependency has a long way to go (read more accidents) before there is a mandated manual flight policy.
Compressor Stall,
And I could show you a quite large airline that does a high proportion of visual approaches, where the incidences of unstable approaches (based on 100% monitoring of all by QAR analysis) is very rare, and does not vary between visual and IF approaches.
There is NO necessary relationship between visual approaches and the incidence of unstable approaches.
Chocks Away,
It is not a matter of agreeing to disagree, it is a matter of getting your facts straight. And, I supposed you noticed, most of your quoted articles are quite dated, although you still get it wrong based on those.
Tootle pip!!
And I could show you a quite large airline that does a high proportion of visual approaches, where the incidences of unstable approaches (based on 100% monitoring of all by QAR analysis) is very rare, and does not vary between visual and IF approaches.
There is NO necessary relationship between visual approaches and the incidence of unstable approaches.
Chocks Away,
It is not a matter of agreeing to disagree, it is a matter of getting your facts straight. And, I supposed you noticed, most of your quoted articles are quite dated, although you still get it wrong based on those.
Tootle pip!!
There is NO necessary relationship between visual approaches and the incidence of unstable approaches.
You can have all the opinions on your old airline that you like, but when facts like this are permeated through the industry it makes the argument of letting pilots handfly and do visual approaches that much harder.
IMHO until there are some more hull losses from complete incompetence/magenta lining the airlines’ desire to avoid unstable approaches (or level busts like the recent A320 vis app into YMML) will sadly rule and manual flight will be actively discouraged.
Last edited by compressor stall; 6th Apr 2018 at 21:55.