Pilot shortage
Oh sure didn’t mean it in a “couldn’t be bothered telling you way”. More like we won’t try to convince people that think it’s pointless and has no added value to the growth of a pilot. Besides just because a pilot didn’t do the pilgrimage doesn’t mean they are a lessor candidate. I do know for me at least, it put me in multiple sticky situations nearly everyday. I probably needed it!
There were some good times and some bad times I’m just glad I didn’t get killed as quite a few I knew did. PNG? That’s another level again...
There were some good times and some bad times I’m just glad I didn’t get killed as quite a few I knew did. PNG? That’s another level again...
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Oh sure didn’t mean it in a “couldn’t be bothered telling you way”. More like we won’t try to convince people that think it’s pointless and has no added value to the growth of a pilot. Besides just because a pilot didn’t do the pilgrimage doesn’t mean they are a lessor candidate. I do know for me at least, it put me in multiple sticky situations nearly everyday. I probably needed it!
There were some good times and some bad times I’m just glad I didn’t get killed as quite a few I knew did. PNG? That’s another level again...
There were some good times and some bad times I’m just glad I didn’t get killed as quite a few I knew did. PNG? That’s another level again...
A320A321
I spent about 45 minutes trolling bunches of websites looking for the information. I appreciate your apology, but there was no need to fire off like a an old grouch at all. For someone who knows, just putting the figure here would have taken less time than what you wrote. So you wasted your own time.
Everyone seems to forget that PPrune is like a chat in a pub between mates, nothing more. Such as after an aircraft accident - if 5 pilots were in a pub discussing it and speculating, none of them would do the old "let's wait for the report fellas before speculating." We'd chat about it. Likewise, if 5 of us were in a pub and I said how much does an F/O at Alliance earn, would you turn to me and say look it up on FWA, stop wasting our time? I doubt it. PPRune is a pub chat. Lefties not needed here.
And the reason I spent so long on line looking for the answer was because I just knew that if I asked here some twisted and bitter zipperhead would reply just as you did.
I spent about 45 minutes trolling bunches of websites looking for the information. I appreciate your apology, but there was no need to fire off like a an old grouch at all. For someone who knows, just putting the figure here would have taken less time than what you wrote. So you wasted your own time.
Everyone seems to forget that PPrune is like a chat in a pub between mates, nothing more. Such as after an aircraft accident - if 5 pilots were in a pub discussing it and speculating, none of them would do the old "let's wait for the report fellas before speculating." We'd chat about it. Likewise, if 5 of us were in a pub and I said how much does an F/O at Alliance earn, would you turn to me and say look it up on FWA, stop wasting our time? I doubt it. PPRune is a pub chat. Lefties not needed here.
And the reason I spent so long on line looking for the answer was because I just knew that if I asked here some twisted and bitter zipperhead would reply just as you did.
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Some years ago I crunched the numbers on how much it would cost to install a pilot retention bonus. Not a pretend or cynical low shelf life token that we’ve seen pop up from time to time, but a permanent and significant enticement to stay put.
As the airlines found that do take a different line, labour unit cost should be a consideration not an absolute focus.
Herb Kelleher worked from the other end, starting with employees and working backwards...Worked for just on 50 years.
A company is stronger if bound by love, than by fear.
-Herb Kelleher
Cannot imagine a Leigh Clifford, 'self anointed industry captain' type even under duress mouthing such sentiment. Sadly for him he is shortly to be consigned to history as he is pretty much done as his his model of 'leadership'.
Airlines that treat people with respect, not weasel words through faux smiles and focus groups will actually firstly attract qualified crew and then keep them.
We are a while off that yet, but demographics ensure they will be forced to change.
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A320A321
I spent about 45 minutes trolling bunches of websites looking for the information. I appreciate your apology, but there was no need to fire off like a an old grouch at all. For someone who knows, just putting the figure here would have taken less time than what you wrote. So you wasted your own time.
Everyone seems to forget that PPrune is like a chat in a pub between mates, nothing more. Such as after an aircraft accident - if 5 pilots were in a pub discussing it and speculating, none of them would do the old "let's wait for the report fellas before speculating." We'd chat about it. Likewise, if 5 of us were in a pub and I said how much does an F/O at Alliance earn, would you turn to me and say look it up on FWA, stop wasting our time? I doubt it. PPRune is a pub chat. Lefties not needed here.
And the reason I spent so long on line looking for the answer was because I just knew that if I asked here some twisted and bitter zipperhead would reply just as you did.
I spent about 45 minutes trolling bunches of websites looking for the information. I appreciate your apology, but there was no need to fire off like a an old grouch at all. For someone who knows, just putting the figure here would have taken less time than what you wrote. So you wasted your own time.
Everyone seems to forget that PPrune is like a chat in a pub between mates, nothing more. Such as after an aircraft accident - if 5 pilots were in a pub discussing it and speculating, none of them would do the old "let's wait for the report fellas before speculating." We'd chat about it. Likewise, if 5 of us were in a pub and I said how much does an F/O at Alliance earn, would you turn to me and say look it up on FWA, stop wasting our time? I doubt it. PPRune is a pub chat. Lefties not needed here.
And the reason I spent so long on line looking for the answer was because I just knew that if I asked here some twisted and bitter zipperhead would reply just as you did.
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Agreed Angryrat, it reminds me of a famous quote:
--Attributed (falsely) to Winston Churchill
Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing…after they have exhausted all other possibilities.
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I just don't understand why airlines hate pilots so much. But could it be that we're seeing a normalisation of the Aviation industry because more people are able to travel by planes now than ever before? Like when buses for example were first introduced surely the prices would have been expensive then later on it obviously decreased. So it's like pilots are being treated as bus drivers, some airlines just don't seem to recognise the skill set required for being a pilot.
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So it's like pilots are being treated as bus drivers, some airlines just don't seem to recognise the skill set required for being a pilot.
The dis-function evident in many industries is attributable to the divide between function and administration. It is something academia and industry are trying to overcome; the lack of knowledge has real implications on business performance. Lack of operational knowledge costs...
For managers, pilots were in unlimited supply.
Regional airlines in Australia plundered GA, GA itself provided opportunities but also exploited pilots who had expended substantial funds acquiring entry level skills. The military too suffered as when the big airlines opened the door they lost crew.
None of these entities saw a problem in not giving back. The allowed administration to denigrate, employer heavy 'legislation and bargaining saw downward pressure on terms and conditions an accepted norm, and in Australia CASA over regulated the smaller and was captured by the larger aviation interests.
Supply of resources are finite, pilots are no exception.
The paradigm has changed and through gritted teeth and false smiles will be words like respect...Think Michael O'Leary in the recent months
Watch the airlines open flight training businesses 'to give back'.
Having set up floors at Waterside, CX city and Coward Street airlines have to confront the reality that the downward pressure and denigration of terms and conditions they loved inflicting is over, the careers they stymied, the cowardly way they hide behind terms like efficiency and market rates, world best practice will progressively disappear
Watch the airlines open flight training businesses 'to give back'.
Having set up floors at Waterside, CX city and Coward Street airlines have to confront the reality that the downward pressure and denigration of terms and conditions they loved inflicting is over, the careers they stymied, the cowardly way they hide behind terms like efficiency and market rates, world best practice will progressively disappear
Having set up floors at Waterside, CX city and Coward Street airlines have to confront the reality that the downward pressure and denigration of terms and conditions they loved inflicting is over, the careers they stymied, the cowardly way they hide behind terms like efficiency and market rates, world best practice will progressively disappear
Agreed. The hardest thing now is to convince pilots to accelerate this change by being bold and forcing the point about their professional worth to their respective companies. It will only be a slow and incremental process if pilots allow it to be.
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IMO pilot T&C's will never improve in this country until the pilot group can get one united union. The fragmentation of the present arrangement plays right into the hands of management. At my previous carrier we had pilots who were either members of VIPA, AFAP or TWU. Game, set and match to management!
Just look at the T&C's of any job the CFMEU have their paws on. People with a much smaller skill set then pilots often getting paid significantly more. My favourite is the unskilled labourer on the Tullamarine Freeway widening project who can pull 150K pa!
Management will exhaust all other options to deal with this 'pilot shortage' before increasing T&C's or the even more unlikely notion of 'respect' gets on their agenda. Think 457 Visa's, indefinitely stalling CAO 48.1 etc etc....
Just look at the T&C's of any job the CFMEU have their paws on. People with a much smaller skill set then pilots often getting paid significantly more. My favourite is the unskilled labourer on the Tullamarine Freeway widening project who can pull 150K pa!
Management will exhaust all other options to deal with this 'pilot shortage' before increasing T&C's or the even more unlikely notion of 'respect' gets on their agenda. Think 457 Visa's, indefinitely stalling CAO 48.1 etc etc....
Angry rat, if you truly believe that then you don’t understand one iota of what that was all about.
BTW have you heard much from Steve Purvinas or Tony Sheldon on airline industrial matters since that unfortunate occurrence?
en hate pilots.BTW have you heard much from Steve Purvinas or Tony Sheldon on airline industrial matters since that unfortunate occurrence?
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Bet on the rider, not on the horse.
I share the sentiment Krusty. It isn't about money, sadly they know the price of everything, the value of nothing.
As the airlines found that do take a different line, labour unit cost should be a consideration not an absolute focus.
Herb Kelleher worked from the other end, starting with employees and working backwards...Worked for just on 50 years.
A company is stronger if bound by love, than by fear.
-Herb Kelleher
Cannot imagine a Leigh Clifford, 'self anointed industry captain' type even under duress mouthing such sentiment. Sadly for him he is shortly to be consigned to history as he is pretty much done as his his model of 'leadership'.
Airlines that treat people with respect, not weasel words through faux smiles and focus groups will actually firstly attract qualified crew and then keep them.
We are a while off that yet, but demographics ensure they will be forced to change.
As the airlines found that do take a different line, labour unit cost should be a consideration not an absolute focus.
Herb Kelleher worked from the other end, starting with employees and working backwards...Worked for just on 50 years.
A company is stronger if bound by love, than by fear.
-Herb Kelleher
Cannot imagine a Leigh Clifford, 'self anointed industry captain' type even under duress mouthing such sentiment. Sadly for him he is shortly to be consigned to history as he is pretty much done as his his model of 'leadership'.
Airlines that treat people with respect, not weasel words through faux smiles and focus groups will actually firstly attract qualified crew and then keep them.
We are a while off that yet, but demographics ensure they will be forced to change.
Who did Herb Kelleher have to answer to? How about Richard Branson? Elon Musk? Steven Jobs? Visionaries who change the world rarely have to do a board of directors carpet dance explaining why they chose to to do great things, like make the iphone, limit their fleet to one type of aircraft, or why they chose to reinvest their PayPal corporate earnings into an electric car startup. There's a saying in investing: "bet on the horse, not on the rider". I know we do not often have the opportunity to choose which "horse" we are betting our careers on in aviation, but at least we can be wise enough to know when we should have a plan B in place. When I arrived on site at one job I was told that I should think of my new position as if I had been handed two buckets. One for bullsh*t and one for $$. When either bucket was full, it was time to move on. My BS bucket has grown smaller and smaller with age. I might suggest that if one arrives on property with their BS bucket already half full, they'd better keep an eye out for another horse to wager on. Some jockies flog their horses and achieve short-term victories. Some have a partnership and create industry icons that consistently lead the herd.
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"bet on the horse, not on the rider".
Most airline 'administration/management' hierarchy can be bolted on in a telecommunications, manufacturing or banking 'management' and their day to day function changes little. This is why airline employees need a bigger bucket for BS than $$. As I regularly consult with many different organisations i can attest to operational employees at most organisations needing similar buckets. There is a fundamental disconnect. High level discussions believe it is part education (Generic MBA) and interestingly the modern paradigm of infinite growth from a finite business; things get whackier and whackier in search of the perpetual growth. It was not always like that.
Many modern airlines are indeed horses, not really in tune with what it is they actually do...
Airlines need pilots, they need cabin crew and they need good engineering.
Whether they voluntarily rescind their adversarial HR/IR posture, reducing the influence (cost) or the market does it for them, this horse may in its current form need to go to the glue factory...
Last edited by Rated De; 20th Jan 2018 at 19:17.
No I don’t think that. I do think that getting the pilots caught up in the projected lockout and what followed was a bonus. I do believe that if was just the pilots taking the protected action it wouldn’t have happened. Wearing red ties and making propaganda PAs wasn’t causing a problem.
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Define Experience?
Define Experience?
Are 250 hour plus pilots capable of sitting in the right hand, or even the Left Hand seat of today’s modern aircraft?
Who should define experience required?
Human Resources; Industrial Relations Clerks?
History and experience shows pilots with minimal experience are daily fulfilling these roles having done so successfully for many years with many becoming the senior experienced Captains of today.
The pilots illustrated below and equally pilots of the allied forces, Britain, Canada, Poland, Australia, New Zealand, to mention but a few, (with apologies for not having the corresponding figures) particularly those who survived, went on to establish the airlines, the excellent procedures we have today. Along the way they trained and, more importantly, mentored their protégé producing today’s professional airlines crews.
WWII U.S. Army Air Corps
Back in the day when America was in the "Big War" WWII, these planes were flown by young boys. Politically correct was go to war to break things and kill the enemy. Apparently, no one worried about nose art on the bombers.
BTW: More airmen died in WWII than Marines.
Almost 1,000 Army planes disappeared enroute from the US to foreign locations. But an eye-watering 43,581 aircraft were lost overseas including 22,948 on combat missions (18,418 against the Western Axis) and 20,633 attributed to non-combat causes overseas.
In a single 376 plane raid in August 1943, 60 B-17s were shot down. That was a 16 percent loss rate and meant 600 empty bunks in England. In 1942-43 it was statistically impossible for bomber crews to complete a 25-mission tour in Europe.
Pacific theatre losses were far less (4,530 in combat) owing to smaller forces committed.. The worst B-29 mission, against Tokyo on May 25, 1945, cost 26 Superfortresses, 5.6 percent of the 464 dispatched from the Marianas.
On average, 6,600 American servicemen died per month during WWII, about 220 a day. By the end of the war, over 40,000 airmen were killed in combat theatres and another 18,000 wounded. Some 12,000 missing men were declared dead, including a number "liberated" by the Soviets but never returned. More than 41,000 were captured, half of the 5,400 held by the Japanese died in captivity, compared with one-tenth in German hands. Total combat casualties were pegged at 121,867.
US manpower made up the deficit. The AAF's peak strength was reached in 1944 with 2,372,000 personnel, nearly twice the previous year's figure.
The losses were huge---but so were production totals. From 1941 through 1945, American industry delivered more than 276,000 military aircraft. That number was enough not only for US Army, Navy and Marine Corps, but for allies as diverse as Britain, Australia, China and Russia. In fact, from 1943 onward, America produced more planes than Britain and Russia combined.
And more than Germany and Japan together 1941-45
However, our enemies took massive losses. Through much of 1944, the Luftwaffe sustained uncontrolled haemorrhaging, reaching 25 percent of aircrews and 40 planes a month. And in late 1944 into 1945, nearly half the pilots in Japanese squadrons had flown fewer than 200 hours. The disparity of two years before had been completely reversed.
Experience Level:
Uncle Sam sent many of his sons to war with absolute minimums of training. Some fighter pilots entered combat in 1942 with less than one hour in their assigned aircraft.
The 357th Fighter Group (often known as The Yoxford Boys) went to England in late 1943 having trained on P-39s. The group never saw a Mustang until shortly before its first combat mission.
A high-time P-51 pilot had 30 hours in type. Many had fewer than five hours. Some had one hour.
With arrival of new aircraft, many combat units transitioned in combat. The attitude was, "They all have a stick and a throttle. Go fly “em." When the famed 4th Fighter Group converted from P-47s to P-51s in February 1944, there was no time to stand down for an orderly transition.
The Group commander, Col. Donald Blakeslee, said, "You can learn to fly `51s on the way to the target.
A future P-47 ace said, "I was sent to England to die." He was not alone.
Some fighter pilots tucked their wheels in the well on their first combat mission with one previous flight in the aircraft. Meanwhile, many bomber crews were still learning their trade: of Jimmy Doolittle's 15 pilots on the April 1942 Tokyo raid, only five had won their wings before 1941.
All but one of the 16 co-pilots were less than a year out of flight school.
In WWII flying safety took a back seat to combat. The AAF's worst accident rate was recorded by the A-36 Invader version of the P-51: a staggering 274 accidents per 100,000 flying hours.
Next worst were the P-39 at 245, the P-40 at 188, and the P-38 at 139. All were Allison powered.
Bomber wrecks were fewer but more expensive. The B-17 and B-24 averaged 30 and 35 accidents per 100,000 flight hours, respectively-- a horrific figure considering that from 1980 to 2000 the Air Force's major mishap rate was less than 2.
The B-29 was even worse at 40; the world's most sophisticated, most capable and most expensive bomber was too urgently needed to stand down for mere safety reasons.. The AAF set a reasonably high standard for B-29 pilots, but the desired figures were seldom attained.
The original cadre of the 58th Bomb Wing was to have 400 hours of multi-engine time, but there were not enough experienced pilots to meet the criterion. Only ten percent had overseas experience. Conversely, when a $2.1 billion B-2 crashed in 2008, the Air Force initiated a two-month "safety pause" rather than declare a "stand down", let alone grounding.
The B-29 was no better for maintenance. Though the R3350 was known as a complicated, troublesome power-plant, no more than half the mechanics had previous experience with the Duplex Cyclone. But they made it work.
Navigators:
Perhaps the greatest unsung success story of AAF training was Navigators.
The Army graduated some 50,000 during the War. And many had never flown out of sight of land before leaving "Uncle Sugar" for a war zone. Yet the huge majority found their way across oceans and continents without getting lost or running out of fuel --- a stirring tribute to the AAF's educational establishments.
Cadet To Colonel:
It was possible for a flying cadet at the time of Pearl Harbor to finish the war with eagles on his shoulders. That was the record of John D. Landers, a 21-year-old Texan, who was commissioned a second lieutenant on December 12, 1941. He joined his combat squadron with 209 hours total flight time, including 2 in P-40s. He finished the war as a full colonel, commanding an 8th Air Force Group --- at age 24.
As the training pipeline filled up, however those low figures became exceptions.
By early 1944, the average AAF fighter pilot entering combat had logged at least 450 hours, usually including 250 hours in training. At the same time, many captains and first lieutenants claimed over 600 hours.
FACT:
At its height in mid-1944, the Army Air Forces had 2.6 million people and nearly 80,000 aircraft of all types.
Today the US Air Force employs 327,000 active personnel (plus 170,000 civilians) with 5,500+ manned and perhaps 200 unmanned aircraft.
The 2009 figures represent about 12 percent of the manpower and 7 percent of the airplanes of the WWII peak.
Whether there will ever be another war like that experienced in 1940-45 is doubtful, as fighters and bombers have given way to helicopters and remotely-controlled drones over Afghanistan and Iraq.
But within living memory, men left the earth in 1,000-plane formations and fought major battles five miles high, leaving a legacy that remains timeless.
Are 250 hour plus pilots capable of sitting in the right hand, or even the Left Hand seat of today’s modern aircraft?
Who should define experience required?
Human Resources; Industrial Relations Clerks?
History and experience shows pilots with minimal experience are daily fulfilling these roles having done so successfully for many years with many becoming the senior experienced Captains of today.
The pilots illustrated below and equally pilots of the allied forces, Britain, Canada, Poland, Australia, New Zealand, to mention but a few, (with apologies for not having the corresponding figures) particularly those who survived, went on to establish the airlines, the excellent procedures we have today. Along the way they trained and, more importantly, mentored their protégé producing today’s professional airlines crews.
WWII U.S. Army Air Corps
Back in the day when America was in the "Big War" WWII, these planes were flown by young boys. Politically correct was go to war to break things and kill the enemy. Apparently, no one worried about nose art on the bombers.
BTW: More airmen died in WWII than Marines.
Almost 1,000 Army planes disappeared enroute from the US to foreign locations. But an eye-watering 43,581 aircraft were lost overseas including 22,948 on combat missions (18,418 against the Western Axis) and 20,633 attributed to non-combat causes overseas.
In a single 376 plane raid in August 1943, 60 B-17s were shot down. That was a 16 percent loss rate and meant 600 empty bunks in England. In 1942-43 it was statistically impossible for bomber crews to complete a 25-mission tour in Europe.
Pacific theatre losses were far less (4,530 in combat) owing to smaller forces committed.. The worst B-29 mission, against Tokyo on May 25, 1945, cost 26 Superfortresses, 5.6 percent of the 464 dispatched from the Marianas.
On average, 6,600 American servicemen died per month during WWII, about 220 a day. By the end of the war, over 40,000 airmen were killed in combat theatres and another 18,000 wounded. Some 12,000 missing men were declared dead, including a number "liberated" by the Soviets but never returned. More than 41,000 were captured, half of the 5,400 held by the Japanese died in captivity, compared with one-tenth in German hands. Total combat casualties were pegged at 121,867.
US manpower made up the deficit. The AAF's peak strength was reached in 1944 with 2,372,000 personnel, nearly twice the previous year's figure.
The losses were huge---but so were production totals. From 1941 through 1945, American industry delivered more than 276,000 military aircraft. That number was enough not only for US Army, Navy and Marine Corps, but for allies as diverse as Britain, Australia, China and Russia. In fact, from 1943 onward, America produced more planes than Britain and Russia combined.
And more than Germany and Japan together 1941-45
However, our enemies took massive losses. Through much of 1944, the Luftwaffe sustained uncontrolled haemorrhaging, reaching 25 percent of aircrews and 40 planes a month. And in late 1944 into 1945, nearly half the pilots in Japanese squadrons had flown fewer than 200 hours. The disparity of two years before had been completely reversed.
Experience Level:
Uncle Sam sent many of his sons to war with absolute minimums of training. Some fighter pilots entered combat in 1942 with less than one hour in their assigned aircraft.
The 357th Fighter Group (often known as The Yoxford Boys) went to England in late 1943 having trained on P-39s. The group never saw a Mustang until shortly before its first combat mission.
A high-time P-51 pilot had 30 hours in type. Many had fewer than five hours. Some had one hour.
With arrival of new aircraft, many combat units transitioned in combat. The attitude was, "They all have a stick and a throttle. Go fly “em." When the famed 4th Fighter Group converted from P-47s to P-51s in February 1944, there was no time to stand down for an orderly transition.
The Group commander, Col. Donald Blakeslee, said, "You can learn to fly `51s on the way to the target.
A future P-47 ace said, "I was sent to England to die." He was not alone.
Some fighter pilots tucked their wheels in the well on their first combat mission with one previous flight in the aircraft. Meanwhile, many bomber crews were still learning their trade: of Jimmy Doolittle's 15 pilots on the April 1942 Tokyo raid, only five had won their wings before 1941.
All but one of the 16 co-pilots were less than a year out of flight school.
In WWII flying safety took a back seat to combat. The AAF's worst accident rate was recorded by the A-36 Invader version of the P-51: a staggering 274 accidents per 100,000 flying hours.
Next worst were the P-39 at 245, the P-40 at 188, and the P-38 at 139. All were Allison powered.
Bomber wrecks were fewer but more expensive. The B-17 and B-24 averaged 30 and 35 accidents per 100,000 flight hours, respectively-- a horrific figure considering that from 1980 to 2000 the Air Force's major mishap rate was less than 2.
The B-29 was even worse at 40; the world's most sophisticated, most capable and most expensive bomber was too urgently needed to stand down for mere safety reasons.. The AAF set a reasonably high standard for B-29 pilots, but the desired figures were seldom attained.
The original cadre of the 58th Bomb Wing was to have 400 hours of multi-engine time, but there were not enough experienced pilots to meet the criterion. Only ten percent had overseas experience. Conversely, when a $2.1 billion B-2 crashed in 2008, the Air Force initiated a two-month "safety pause" rather than declare a "stand down", let alone grounding.
The B-29 was no better for maintenance. Though the R3350 was known as a complicated, troublesome power-plant, no more than half the mechanics had previous experience with the Duplex Cyclone. But they made it work.
Navigators:
Perhaps the greatest unsung success story of AAF training was Navigators.
The Army graduated some 50,000 during the War. And many had never flown out of sight of land before leaving "Uncle Sugar" for a war zone. Yet the huge majority found their way across oceans and continents without getting lost or running out of fuel --- a stirring tribute to the AAF's educational establishments.
Cadet To Colonel:
It was possible for a flying cadet at the time of Pearl Harbor to finish the war with eagles on his shoulders. That was the record of John D. Landers, a 21-year-old Texan, who was commissioned a second lieutenant on December 12, 1941. He joined his combat squadron with 209 hours total flight time, including 2 in P-40s. He finished the war as a full colonel, commanding an 8th Air Force Group --- at age 24.
As the training pipeline filled up, however those low figures became exceptions.
By early 1944, the average AAF fighter pilot entering combat had logged at least 450 hours, usually including 250 hours in training. At the same time, many captains and first lieutenants claimed over 600 hours.
FACT:
At its height in mid-1944, the Army Air Forces had 2.6 million people and nearly 80,000 aircraft of all types.
Today the US Air Force employs 327,000 active personnel (plus 170,000 civilians) with 5,500+ manned and perhaps 200 unmanned aircraft.
The 2009 figures represent about 12 percent of the manpower and 7 percent of the airplanes of the WWII peak.
IN SUMMATION
Whether there will ever be another war like that experienced in 1940-45 is doubtful, as fighters and bombers have given way to helicopters and remotely-controlled drones over Afghanistan and Iraq.
But within living memory, men left the earth in 1,000-plane formations and fought major battles five miles high, leaving a legacy that remains timeless.
With those horrendous losses quoted I think we all (including HR and IR Clerks) can safely deduce the experience required/ demanded by the fare paying 21st Century public to be more than that of a WWII Pilot.