Pilot shortage
There are 167,000 workers on 457 visas in Australia right now. I have seen statistics that show two out of three skilled Australian jobs are filled by foreign workers, jobs that should be filled by training Australians. It is a disgrace. The use of 457 visas in Aviation is just the tip of the rather pathetic iceberg that is so short-sightedly taken advantage of for short term gain by employers and politicians alike.
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BankRupt: Vancouver/Canada maybe elsewhere.
Highlighting or Italics (comment) mine.
How do these employment conditions compare to an Australian employee?
If you currently live Darwin/Perth/Broken Hill/etc. do you get all of these?
Anyone wanting a copy of the original PM with email me and will send as attachment.
DK
Oantaslink
Dˇrect Entry First Offˇcer
Salary and Benefˇts
Along with offering great lifestyle opportunities, QantasLink also offers employees a range of benefits and attractive salary.
Below is information relating to pay and employee benefits across all major bases such as Brisbane, Cairns,
Adelaide, Melbourne, Mildura and Sydney.
Q300 (2000+ Hours)
First Officer Salary - 566,085 to 68,307.00 per annum
Q400 (2000+ Hours)
First Officer Salary - SlO,ltO to 73,088.00 per annum
Additional pay is provided for Duty Hours (DHA)
DHA= S0.gO per hour. On average First Officers are paid 30-40 hours per week on top of salary.
Total salary S8S,OOO - St00,000 per annum (superannuation inclusive)
Meal Allowance/ Overnight Allowance
ln addition you will be paid a meal and overnight allowance for some duties
Superannuation
Superannuation is a way to save for your retirement. The money comes from contributions made by your employer. Qantaslink pay superannuation as part of your salary package on top of your monthly wage of 9.5% to 10% paid directly into your designated super fund.
Staff Travel
Qantas Group has excellent staff travel options available to employees after six months of permanent employment. Staff travel includes immediate family and up to two additional friend or family member residing in Australian or outside of Australia.
Relocation Assˇstance
Candidates who are successful for any of the Sydney/Brisbane based 300/400 Tech Crew positions will be eligible to receive relocation assistance. A summary of the benefits is listed below.
lmmigration
The Company will arrange and cover the cost of obtaining 457 visas for candidate and eligible accompanying family
members, including OR excluding medical checks and police checks. 457 visas are valid for four years and can be renewed.
Temporary Accommodation
The Company will cover the cost of temporary accommodation for a period up to 21 nights, in either home and/or host location.
Relocation Travel
The candidate and accompanying family will receive a one way free of charge trip from host location (nearest Qantas port) to new location on Qantas group. Travel by most direct route and no stop overs permitted.
Excess Baggage Waiver
The candidate is eligible for 100kgs of accompanied baggage on Qantas flights only
Removal of Personal Household Goods and Shipping
The Company will cover the cost of packing, removal and consignment of the candidate's household effects to the new location with the Company's preferred removalist, Crown Relocations to the value of AUDS2000
Single/Couple candidate: up to 5 cbm OR 20ft container sea freight
Family size: up to 10 cbm OR 40ft container sea freight
Certain exclusions apply: including pets, cars, items that do not fit in standard load container, etc
The candidate will be responsible for all lmport, Customs, Excise & Quarantine charges
Transit time door to door for Sea Freight would be approx. L2 weeks
lncome Tax Briefing
The Company will cover the cost of a tax briefing with Ernst & Young in both home and host location, in
order for the candidate to discuss the tax implications of the relocation to Australia.
Health lnsurance
It is a condition of employment that the employee and their accompanying family take out appropriate private health insurance for the duration of their employment as a temporary resident of Australia.
We look forward to in detail iscussing your application in more
Please contact Emma Cattell in the Qantaslink Recruitment Team if you have
any questions.
Emma Cattell
Talent Acquisition Specialist
Talent Acquisition: People Services: Qantas Airways Limited
Tz +67 3867 3168 Email:
************************************************************ **
Talent Acquisition Specialist
Talent Acquisition: People Services
Don't you just enjoy how they are more interested in themselves instead of the employees?
Highlighting or Italics (comment) mine.
How do these employment conditions compare to an Australian employee?
If you currently live Darwin/Perth/Broken Hill/etc. do you get all of these?
Anyone wanting a copy of the original PM with email me and will send as attachment.
DK
Oantaslink
Dˇrect Entry First Offˇcer
Salary and Benefˇts
Along with offering great lifestyle opportunities, QantasLink also offers employees a range of benefits and attractive salary.
Below is information relating to pay and employee benefits across all major bases such as Brisbane, Cairns,
Adelaide, Melbourne, Mildura and Sydney.
Q300 (2000+ Hours)
First Officer Salary - 566,085 to 68,307.00 per annum
Q400 (2000+ Hours)
First Officer Salary - SlO,ltO to 73,088.00 per annum
Additional pay is provided for Duty Hours (DHA)
DHA= S0.gO per hour. On average First Officers are paid 30-40 hours per week on top of salary.
Total salary S8S,OOO - St00,000 per annum (superannuation inclusive)
Meal Allowance/ Overnight Allowance
ln addition you will be paid a meal and overnight allowance for some duties
Superannuation
Superannuation is a way to save for your retirement. The money comes from contributions made by your employer. Qantaslink pay superannuation as part of your salary package on top of your monthly wage of 9.5% to 10% paid directly into your designated super fund.
Staff Travel
Qantas Group has excellent staff travel options available to employees after six months of permanent employment. Staff travel includes immediate family and up to two additional friend or family member residing in Australian or outside of Australia.
Relocation Assˇstance
Candidates who are successful for any of the Sydney/Brisbane based 300/400 Tech Crew positions will be eligible to receive relocation assistance. A summary of the benefits is listed below.
lmmigration
The Company will arrange and cover the cost of obtaining 457 visas for candidate and eligible accompanying family
members, including OR excluding medical checks and police checks. 457 visas are valid for four years and can be renewed.
Temporary Accommodation
The Company will cover the cost of temporary accommodation for a period up to 21 nights, in either home and/or host location.
Relocation Travel
The candidate and accompanying family will receive a one way free of charge trip from host location (nearest Qantas port) to new location on Qantas group. Travel by most direct route and no stop overs permitted.
Excess Baggage Waiver
The candidate is eligible for 100kgs of accompanied baggage on Qantas flights only
Removal of Personal Household Goods and Shipping
The Company will cover the cost of packing, removal and consignment of the candidate's household effects to the new location with the Company's preferred removalist, Crown Relocations to the value of AUDS2000
Single/Couple candidate: up to 5 cbm OR 20ft container sea freight
Family size: up to 10 cbm OR 40ft container sea freight
Certain exclusions apply: including pets, cars, items that do not fit in standard load container, etc
The candidate will be responsible for all lmport, Customs, Excise & Quarantine charges
Transit time door to door for Sea Freight would be approx. L2 weeks
lncome Tax Briefing
The Company will cover the cost of a tax briefing with Ernst & Young in both home and host location, in
order for the candidate to discuss the tax implications of the relocation to Australia.
Health lnsurance
It is a condition of employment that the employee and their accompanying family take out appropriate private health insurance for the duration of their employment as a temporary resident of Australia.
We look forward to in detail iscussing your application in more
Please contact Emma Cattell in the Qantaslink Recruitment Team if you have
any questions.
Emma Cattell
Talent Acquisition Specialist
Talent Acquisition: People Services: Qantas Airways Limited
Tz +67 3867 3168 Email:
************************************************************ **
Talent Acquisition Specialist
Talent Acquisition: People Services
Don't you just enjoy how they are more interested in themselves instead of the employees?
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The one peeping from behind the curtains (CurtainTwitcher) accurately summarises it.
Employers are manipulating, abusing and rorting the 457 Visa system submitting applications to the Immigration and Border Protection Department system created with the appearance of compliance however, fully designed to circumvented the system.
This seriously disadvantages Australian Citizens within their Home country where an overworked, stressed Immigration and Border Protection Department is unable, incapable of or unwilling to properly, fully and comprehensively validate each and every application.
Unless each and everyone one of us writes, emails or telephone calls their Local Federal MP including each and everyone's Senators within their State strongly requesting the Department of Immigration and Border Protection promptly, comprehensively and thoroughly investigate each and every 457 Visa application ensuring all totally complies with the intent and spirit of the Legislation, nothing will change.
Dinner table, Bar oratory, PPRune posts whilst highly entertaining, achieve little!
Qualified dash 8 f/o's are in short supply. Of course they are in short supply, because very few can afford to do a speculative endorsement without the reasonable prospect of a job. Hence there is rarely a large pool of qualified and current individuals sitting around just waiting for a job to pop up.
Importing labour is a "two-fa" for an employer. It increase the supply, driving down price and it creates a visa holder beholden to their sponsor with a compliant and acquiescent attitude. In short, it magnifies the power over employees as a job loss means no visa.
I'm sure some employers would love to have their entire workforce on 457's. By specifying the EXACT qualification &/or recency/experience required means the available pool of Australian's available who meet the criteria is very small, therefore justifying employing 457's.
Importing labour is a "two-fa" for an employer. It increase the supply, driving down price and it creates a visa holder beholden to their sponsor with a compliant and acquiescent attitude. In short, it magnifies the power over employees as a job loss means no visa.
I'm sure some employers would love to have their entire workforce on 457's. By specifying the EXACT qualification &/or recency/experience required means the available pool of Australian's available who meet the criteria is very small, therefore justifying employing 457's.
This seriously disadvantages Australian Citizens within their Home country where an overworked, stressed Immigration and Border Protection Department is unable, incapable of or unwilling to properly, fully and comprehensively validate each and every application.
Unless each and everyone one of us writes, emails or telephone calls their Local Federal MP including each and everyone's Senators within their State strongly requesting the Department of Immigration and Border Protection promptly, comprehensively and thoroughly investigate each and every 457 Visa application ensuring all totally complies with the intent and spirit of the Legislation, nothing will change.
Dinner table, Bar oratory, PPRune posts whilst highly entertaining, achieve little!
There are 167,000 workers on 457 visas in Australia right now. I have seen statistics that show two out of three skilled Australian jobs are filled by foreign workers, jobs that should be filled by training Australians.
The ideal change to this 457 rort is to mandate that for every 457 used (or even for every two used, say, just to soften the economics a little bit), requires one Tafe or University Graduate, Paid Intern, who is an Australian Citizen to be employed as a trainee at the same time.
The idea behind 457's is supposedly to support industries that have a skill shortage. Those industries should be putting just as much effort into removing said skills shortage themselves. When there is mutual obligation behind the use of 457's, watch their usage rapidly go back to what it was meant to be.
The idea behind 457's is supposedly to support industries that have a skill shortage. Those industries should be putting just as much effort into removing said skills shortage themselves. When there is mutual obligation behind the use of 457's, watch their usage rapidly go back to what it was meant to be.
Time to start lobbying your federal MP, the more this can be highlighted to them, the more chance we have of stopping this. Also, contact your Union, see what they can do.
If we don't fight this, it'll continue and all the bargaining power we have will disappear.
If we don't fight this, it'll continue and all the bargaining power we have will disappear.
Not really, NN... many Aussies o/s don't come back because they refuse to be treated like dickheads & disrespected by the HR Departments, who have ruined the industry.
It's a Pilot's Market around the globe right now (for those with legit logbooks/Quals & unfraudelent experience)!
It's a Pilot's Market around the globe right now (for those with legit logbooks/Quals & unfraudelent experience)!
Here is the problem, Australia will always be a desirable place to live and raise children to anyone from a third world country. All of whom have airlines who are probably getting paid less than anyone in Australia.
Additional to that is the South African government's policy of positive discrimination which makes it hard for educated white folk to be pilots so they start looking abroad.
So if we actually get to a real labour shortage the floodgates will be opened to the world and the problem will go away overnight.
Last edited by neville_nobody; 18th Dec 2016 at 04:43.
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Roj stated,
Roj, both major parties, the NXT and even the greens support big 'Australia'; continued immigration on aircraft whilst continually telling you they stopped the boats! (that is the real refugees).
The wages 'Accord' in the Hawke Keating era was designed to lower the real wage over time, thereby making Australia more 'competitive'. It was an interesting process, with a much modified CPI and nominal pay increases linked to the new CPI, most workers fell behind as real inflation was much higher.
457 visas are yet another instrument to keep pressure on wages and no politician of the modern crop of 'intellectual genius' will do a thing. Most of them are big property owners, so more population means more for them!
As for pilot unions, whilst certain labour unions (aviation) pushed back hard, at least one ignored the Skilled Occupations List and that is the reason in part that Aeroplane Pilot is on the list.
Whilst I agree with NN that Australia remains a desirable place to work, the market does not work in a vacuum, there is more and more data supporting a genuine, demographic based skills shortage.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/17/op...lots.html?_r=1
Employers will keep trying, sparing no expense not to raise terms and conditions, certain ME carriers will raise quietly remuneration for new hires, as one is doing now but demand will be met when supply rises. Supply rises on the back of rising prices (salary)
As the President of ALPA states:
“The real problem the industry is facing is young people aren’t making the decision to become an airline pilot,” said Capt. Tim Canoll, a Delta pilot and president of the ALPA. “It takes a very motivated person to meet the physical, emotional and intellectual challenge of becoming a pilot, and that same motivated person does the math looking at what it takes and the return on investment, and it just doesn’t add up,” particularly when training costs alone can reach $150,000.
So give it time and you may well see, strategically thinking Asian carriers decide an Australian basing or genuine commuting contracts are a way to solve their supply. Globalisation in a vacuum benefits one side, but in the piloting profession where pilots are a commodity, the market is very much global.
Time to start lobbying your federal MP, the more this can be highlighted to them, the more chance we have of stopping this. Also, contact your Union, see what they can do.
The wages 'Accord' in the Hawke Keating era was designed to lower the real wage over time, thereby making Australia more 'competitive'. It was an interesting process, with a much modified CPI and nominal pay increases linked to the new CPI, most workers fell behind as real inflation was much higher.
457 visas are yet another instrument to keep pressure on wages and no politician of the modern crop of 'intellectual genius' will do a thing. Most of them are big property owners, so more population means more for them!
As for pilot unions, whilst certain labour unions (aviation) pushed back hard, at least one ignored the Skilled Occupations List and that is the reason in part that Aeroplane Pilot is on the list.
Whilst I agree with NN that Australia remains a desirable place to work, the market does not work in a vacuum, there is more and more data supporting a genuine, demographic based skills shortage.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/17/op...lots.html?_r=1
Employers will keep trying, sparing no expense not to raise terms and conditions, certain ME carriers will raise quietly remuneration for new hires, as one is doing now but demand will be met when supply rises. Supply rises on the back of rising prices (salary)
As the President of ALPA states:
“The real problem the industry is facing is young people aren’t making the decision to become an airline pilot,” said Capt. Tim Canoll, a Delta pilot and president of the ALPA. “It takes a very motivated person to meet the physical, emotional and intellectual challenge of becoming a pilot, and that same motivated person does the math looking at what it takes and the return on investment, and it just doesn’t add up,” particularly when training costs alone can reach $150,000.
So give it time and you may well see, strategically thinking Asian carriers decide an Australian basing or genuine commuting contracts are a way to solve their supply. Globalisation in a vacuum benefits one side, but in the piloting profession where pilots are a commodity, the market is very much global.
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Much of that which is written here is correct as is the thoughts espoused by Tuck Mach about the history.
Particularly
which is why pilots (and others within the aviation industry) need to get the pen out, the phones ringing berating your local MP and Senators.
If we do not no one else will but the employers will continue to circumvent, abuse and manipulate the rule/system any way they can for THEIR , and ONLY THEIR benefit!
The AFAP are well and truly aware what is going on however, write ring or email the President, the Executive Director, your local council members today, not tomorrow, TODAY!
President AFAP: CAPTAIN DAVID BOOTH 03 9928 5737
Executive Director: SIMON LUTTON 03 9928 5737
Email: [email protected]
AFAP: https://www.afap.org.au/contact
Equally, get on the phone, lift the pen or email your local MP and Senators.
Members ? Parliament of Australia
The only people who will help you are yourselves and it is your Jobs!
Particularly
Employers will keep trying, sparing no expense not to raise terms and conditions
If we do not no one else will but the employers will continue to circumvent, abuse and manipulate the rule/system any way they can for THEIR , and ONLY THEIR benefit!
The AFAP are well and truly aware what is going on however, write ring or email the President, the Executive Director, your local council members today, not tomorrow, TODAY!
President AFAP: CAPTAIN DAVID BOOTH 03 9928 5737
Executive Director: SIMON LUTTON 03 9928 5737
Email: [email protected]
AFAP: https://www.afap.org.au/contact
Equally, get on the phone, lift the pen or email your local MP and Senators.
Members ? Parliament of Australia
The only people who will help you are yourselves and it is your Jobs!
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BeReal; a pity you appear unable to to take your own advice: 457 Visas only if we sit on our behinds not lifting a finger to ensure the Legislation is adhered to as it is written.
The rules and references are all here if you have not already read them:
https://www.google.com.au/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1CHZL_enAU722AU722&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=457%20visas
And as Capt Tim Carrol wrote:
Exactly the same applies here: when the number of applicants is assessed with the numbers required plus the numbers successfully completing training it `ain't' going to solve any shortage let alone a worldwide shortage.
The rules and references are all here if you have not already read them:
https://www.google.com.au/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1CHZL_enAU722AU722&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=457%20visas
And as Capt Tim Carrol wrote:
Capt. Tim Canoll, a Delta pilot and president of the ALPA. “It takes a very motivated person to meet the physical, emotional and intellectual challenge of becoming a pilot, and that same motivated person does the math looking at what it takes and the return on investment, and it just doesn’t add up,” particularly when training costs alone can reach $150,000.
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No assumptions; appropriate paperwork with the Immigration Department for processing, the minister, my local MP, Senators and more with follow up. Also contacted the AFAP and more.
Have absolute proof of a manipulation, abuse of the system/legislation by at least one employer, QLink have advertised not training or upgrading Australians and there is more than anecdotal evidence of more in various other parts of the Australia.
Reading the replies, posts here almost all agree with the impending shortage of pilots as does the evidence from Boeing, Airbus. ALPA and many more.
Have some first hand knowledge of cadets training, the success and dropout rate.
Have you actually read the migration Legislation and Rules a indicated above?
Have you written, phoned or emailed your MP, Senators or the AFAP?
Have absolute proof of a manipulation, abuse of the system/legislation by at least one employer, QLink have advertised not training or upgrading Australians and there is more than anecdotal evidence of more in various other parts of the Australia.
Reading the replies, posts here almost all agree with the impending shortage of pilots as does the evidence from Boeing, Airbus. ALPA and many more.
Have some first hand knowledge of cadets training, the success and dropout rate.
Have you actually read the migration Legislation and Rules a indicated above?
Have you written, phoned or emailed your MP, Senators or the AFAP?
Last edited by Dark Knight; 19th Dec 2016 at 09:09. Reason: correction
The argument as it did with Skywest will come down to type ratings. If you have 5000 hours and check and training approvals on a ATR not a Dash 8 QLink will argue you are not suitable as you don't have Dash 8 time.
The companies are getting around the experience levels by viewing flight time in isolation not as a whole.
Unless you have a good counter argument for the government I don't see how such things will be stopped.
The companies are getting around the experience levels by viewing flight time in isolation not as a whole.
Unless you have a good counter argument for the government I don't see how such things will be stopped.
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If a Doctor has had experience with Draeger Oxylog 3000 ventilators and goes to a hospital where they have Philips Respironics ventilators, it does not mean that the Doctor is no longer suitable for the job of being a Doctor looking after a patient on life support.
Somehow the decision makers would need to be able to see the issue here with pilots. A pilot has a skill set that can be applied across a variety of equipment (with appropriate associated training). Even if overall experience can be explained away and discounted they must surely be made to see that there is 'comparable' experience that should not be discounted when assessing candidates. The devil is in the detail...
Somehow the decision makers would need to be able to see the issue here with pilots. A pilot has a skill set that can be applied across a variety of equipment (with appropriate associated training). Even if overall experience can be explained away and discounted they must surely be made to see that there is 'comparable' experience that should not be discounted when assessing candidates. The devil is in the detail...
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surely be made to see that there is 'comparable' experience that should not be discounted when assessing candidates
Globalisation is working exactly as planned, the full implications were hidden from the public. Stage one was cheap products produced by third world labour. The second stage is in now blooming, third world labour moving to the first world.
There have been a few prominent voices along the way that have let the cat out of the bag in the early 1990's - Jimmy Goldsmith did an interview with Charlie Rose in 1994 on GATT (the forerunner to the WTO World Trade Organisation), the second was Ross Perot debating Al Gore on NAFTA in the US 1993 Presidential Election. In both cases they said that developed countries labour would be devastated. This has indeed turned out to be the case.
If you want a true insight into the processes that were unleashed more that 25 years ago it behooves you to watch these two videos in full. Once you have the process will be clear - the destination is third world labour rates in the first world.
This process is what I believe has led to the phenomenon of BREXIT, Trump ITEXIT and our own political instability within the two main parties as well as the rise of independent / third party candidates in the Senate.
Dark Knight is right on the money by contacting the politicians. Remind them of the political instability of the post Howard era in Australian politics, there are no longer many certainties and the mood of the public is turning. Remind them of what has gone on in the US, Britain & Italy. Remind them that the voters will no longer be told what to do, remind them that there are fewer and fewer "rusted-on" voters and most of all remind them that until they start to genuinely start looking out for their own countryman they can expect a groundswell of political backlash. There is of course one aviation Senator from SA that has already capitalised on this change in mood.
Few politician have any genuine principles and above all fear losing their seats and the associated power and gravy train. Convince them that THEIR jobs are at risk. There have been enough demonstrations that electorates world wide are waking up and will use the ballot box to enact bloodless revolutions.
If you are short on time, the James Goldsmith interview is the one to watch (56 minutes).
Charlie Rose: Sir James Goldsmith Interview - 15.11.94
1993 NAFTA debate: Al Gore vs Ross Perot Full debate (42 minutes)
Last edited by CurtainTwitcher; 20th Dec 2016 at 00:34.
Somehow the decision makers would need to be able to see the issue here with pilots. A pilot has a skill set that can be applied across a variety of equipment (with appropriate associated training). Even if overall experience can be explained away and discounted they must surely be made to see that there is 'comparable' experience that should not be discounted when assessing candidates. The devil is in the detail...
Doctor's are self regulated so they can actually have some influence in their own profession. If an independent regulator moved in to control doctors I would bet that all of a sudden there would be more restrictions put on doctors and suddenly they would need a similar 'endorsement' system to touch everything in a hospital.
Hence why the AMA would move heaven and earth to prevent any form of independent regulation in medicine.
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Neville; you may well be correct however, if all we continue to do is create and make excuses, adopt an attitude of resignation, appeasement then we will continue to get rolled again and again.
Positive action by as many as possible as dictated previously here by all will achieve far more the PPRune posts or bar oratory.
Pilots did not achieve their positions, survive day to day with excuses and negativity but with decisive, positive action.
How about applying some more of this to protect our jobs?
Positive action by as many as possible as dictated previously here by all will achieve far more the PPRune posts or bar oratory.
Pilots did not achieve their positions, survive day to day with excuses and negativity but with decisive, positive action.
How about applying some more of this to protect our jobs?
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To revive a old thread, the airline that I fly for is losing pilots faster than we can train them. Most are leaving to fly for Qantas and Jetstar, which apparently are looking for 400 and 200 pilot positions respectively!! These are incredible numbers, if true for a small market in Australia. Will Cadet programs solve the shortage? Can a cadet ever become a Captain on a large aircraft with all the requirements of Part61 licencing requirements? Here is just one of many internet sites advertising worldwide pilot jobs,
https://www.pilotcareercentre.com/Pilot-Job-Navigator
https://www.pilotcareercentre.com/Pilot-Job-Navigator