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Pilot shortage

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Old 9th Mar 2018, 20:54
  #781 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Foxxster View Post
It actually works fine for everybody involved:
1. Chinese airlines will get their schools and their pilots. All of them on OZ license initially.
2. CASA will be reporting an increase in newly issued licenses and will be patting themselves on the back for an amazing job done.
3. HRs will continue denying the fact that the most of new CPL holders were trained for and will be absorbed by Chinese airlines.
4. Locals will finally get their shortage

Honestly, all above would have been just a joke if my old instructor wouldn't have put his school for sale. Guess who are the buyers?
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Old 9th Mar 2018, 22:35
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Originally Posted by Foxxster View Post
Mr Smith says we must prioritise our Australian pilots over Chinese investment.
What about the amount of Australian flight and ground instructor and support jobs those flying schools will create? I would’ve thought this would’ve worked on the 2GB listener base but on a professional pilot forum?
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Old 10th Mar 2018, 13:01
  #783 (permalink)  
 
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on the 2GB listener base but on a professional pilot forum?
hard to tell the difference on a couple of these threads!! ☺
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Old 11th Mar 2018, 03:07
  #784 (permalink)  
 
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Dick Smith is a private pilot. He is no more an expert on aviation than Geoffrey Thomas.

But if he wants to put his money where his mouth is then perhaps some of the money he made from importing electronic components from a certain part of the world could be used to set up scholarships for Australian students. How many generations back do you have to go to be Australian enough for him.

His perceived Yellow Peril isn't the problem. Chinese students have created jobs and career opportunities for pilots to gain that valuable command time as well as provided employment in regional areas. It took Smith 20+ years to discover they had been operating at Merredin and still not a single tank in sight...not a student in sight either as it's been a year since they operated.

The problem is the behaviour and price gouging of the federal airport leaseholders, CASA creating an uneven playing field by allowing RA-Aus to compete directly with GA flying schools and the Fee Help debacles, mind boggling incompetence and witch hunting by CASA; these are some of the things that have made so many schools have to close their doors.
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Old 11th Mar 2018, 06:36
  #785 (permalink)  
 
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pilot shortage

Originally Posted by Stardoggas View Post
Rex is feeling the crunch. 40 captains have left for majors in the past 6 months while many others wait for their start dates. With their requirements as high as some of the majors they are being overlooked and it might be a little scary where they end up in the coming months.
The Regional Operators in this country have only themselves to blame for their pilot crewing problems. Career minded young men and women will always take advantage of spikes in recruitment levels, and the Regionals know that. There is however an abundance of highly experienced retired airline pilots in Australia who are fit, extremely capable, and readily open to providing their services. At most, a type rating and minimum online training, would see them up and away with no fuss.
Some would be happy to work full time, and others perhaps part time. These guys know how to get the job done, safely, efficiently, and at minimum cost. Ritzy interviews by talent departments ( the new buzzword) and psychometric testing is not required. Unfortunately, there is an enormous bias in this country by REGIONALS against retired airline pilots. One can only speculate as to the reasons, but most of them don’t pass the pub test. I refer to the likes of National Jet, Cobham, Skippers, Qlink, RFDS, VARA, Network, Corporate Air, Air North and indeed CASA. The retired network is alive with stories of applications submitted that were ignored without even the common decency of a reply. It would only take some serious imaginative thinking by the Boards of these operators to plug the gaps created by the major’s recruitment drive. Unfortunately,I have no confidence that the immature attitudes that are indemic in Australian Regional Aviation will change for the benefit of aviators who still want to work, and indeed the overall enhancement of safety in the industry.
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Old 11th Mar 2018, 07:27
  #786 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Rated De View Post

Pilots are a vital ingredient to an airline, for without pilots, those expensive aircraft generate zero revenue sitting on the ground.

Smarter airlines realising the demographic structural shortage and are moving away from adversarial IR models.

Interestingly those costs once TRANSFERRED to the employees, including type ratings are now correctly being absorbed by the company as a COST of BUSINESS.

This is not a result of benevolence, it is necessity. There is a real sustained and accelerating shortage.

There is a growing and obvious shortage which is not as Mr Booth from the AFAP alleges, and I paraphrase 'part of the business cycle'

Whilst no one is advocating ambit claims from unions. Unions ought understand the shortage and the leverage it delivers to restore balance to their members remuneration and life balance./ s
So what would you have him say? Admit there is a structural shortage? Do you even realise that the very thing you’re trumpeting (Structural Pilot Shortage) is the very thing that the Airlines and Government will use to enhance the skilled visa program.

What you’re advocating will allow more overseas pilots into Australia on permanent residency visas, at the expense of the current generation of pilots, and at the expense of forcing Airlines to open up training academies and pay for training – you know, wear the risk of expensive pilot training.

Your agenda on here is as clear as it is misguided. Qantas will never be short of pilots (with the caveat that their useless ‘talent acquisition’ team doesn’t [email protected]#K things up any more than they already have). There will be increased recruitment, and there are be plenty of qualified applicants from cadets, GA, regionals, LCC’s, expats, and other airlines. How many Qantas pilots are leaving to work for other airlines? Paying more to a Qantas pilot does not change the age 65 requirements, medical requirements, or make them live longer to delay retirement. If you want better conditions, man up and take hard action – red ties and PA’s won’t cut it. Don’t try to pontificate and ham up a shortage that will result in permanent residency visas that will [email protected]#k the regional pilots’ prospects of improving their lot.

So the AFAP’s position is clear on the shortage; it’s cyclical – and can be solved with training and retention through better conditions in the operators it’s affecting (predominantly the regionals and GA, but extending to the LCC’s). If you read all of the AFAP’s press on this you’d understand they advocate both increased conditions and increased training.

What’s AIPA’s position? What public statements have they released? Are they advocating a structural shortage? Or are you the lone wolf and all the unions are wrong?

You bang on about Qantas’ ‘adversarial IR model’. I agree, it's adversarial, so why pretend that it will somehow revert to a more gentlemanly or dare I say progressive approach. Under current management the Marquess of Queensberry Rules don’t apply. If they want adversarial, give them adversarial. You know what it costs to ground an airline, get some mongrel in you and get adversarial.
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Old 11th Mar 2018, 08:21
  #787 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Clare Prop View Post
Dick Smith is a private pilot. He is no more an expert on aviation than Geoffrey Thomas.
.
Really? Yes it was quite a while ago but by the sounds of it he has maintained a close eye on their operations since he left. Comparing someone who spent 4 years as head of or chairman of the regulatory body to an aviation journalist is somewhat disingenuous to say the least.

having been appointed by Prime Minister Bob Hawke to be Chairman of the Board of the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) from February 1990 to February 1992. He also served as Deputy-Chairman and Chairman of the Board of the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA, the CAA's regulatory successor after the 1995 de-merger of the government's aviation operations including air traffic control) from 1997 until his resignation in 1999
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Old 12th Mar 2018, 01:56
  #788 (permalink)  
 
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I don’t know about the old fellas working the regionals. I found the multi sector days (up to 8) pretty tough in my 20s with no ground support.

I wouldn’t want to do it 65+ that’s for sure.

I personally love flying with the older guys and always learn a lot from them. After all, many of these guys earned their stripes flying with the guys who were the pioneers.

I don’t think it’s a solution though, and let’s face it. You don’t hang your hat up and then want to go fly a Saab to CTAFs in marginal weather. If you really wanted to fly, you could have stayed at least a domestic captain.
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Old 12th Mar 2018, 02:28
  #789 (permalink)  
 
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If you really wanted to fly, you could have stayed at least a domestic captain
Even better, if people still have the desire to REALLY fly during their retirement, offer them a way to become instructors down at the local flying schools (ie: make it easy for them and not have it cost an arm and a leg-or preferably, not cost anything), and have them address the shortage directly!
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Old 12th Mar 2018, 04:00
  #790 (permalink)  
 
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Reality check for job interviews
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Old 12th Mar 2018, 06:19
  #791 (permalink)  
 
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So what would you have him say? Admit there is a structural shortage? Do you even realise that the very thing you’re trumpeting (Structural Pilot Shortage) is the very thing that the Airlines and Government will use to enhance the skilled visa program.
Sorry Keith the 457 Horse bolted.

What’s AIPA’s position? What public statements have they released? Are they advocating a structural shortage? Or are you the lone wolf and all the unions are wrong?
As for keeping it quiet or 'lone wolf', go and google pilot shortage, it is an open secret.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/travel/5502...ilot-shortage/

https://www.theguardian.com/australi...foreign-flyers


Having actually read the demographic shortage problem which is evident in literally every western economy it is not just pilots in demand.

3101.0 - Australian Demographic Statistics, Jun 2017

https://www.bls.gov/cps/demographics.htm


Union reps need to read the data and then maybe they will push back.

On this Keith we are in furious agreement:

You bang on about Qantas’ ‘adversarial IR model’. I agree, it's adversarial, so why pretend that it will somehow revert to a more gentlemanly or dare I say progressive approach. Under current management the Marquess of Queensberry Rules don’t apply. If they want adversarial, give them adversarial. You know what it costs to ground an airline, get some mongrel in you and get adversarial.
Until it starts costing them on the things they bother counting, union pleas for 'fair play' will be dismissed. It is the shortage that gives pilots leverage, it won't be Australian airline management.
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Old 13th Mar 2018, 08:59
  #792 (permalink)  
 
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Dick Smith is a private pilot. He is no more an expert on aviation than Geoffrey Thomas.
Clare Prop,
That is one of the more stupid things I have seen written about Dick. So you do a few more exams and a flight test and get a CPL or up, that immediately makes you an expert on the aviation industry.

I don't think so!!

But don't take my word for it, here is what Max Hazelton had to say, I presume you do know who Max is??:

For those who believe Dick Smith has no more experience that Geoffrey Thomas, below is text from a bio on Dick written by Max Hazelton a number of years ago:

“Dick Smith learnt to fly in 1972 gaining his Command Instrument Rating in 1983. In 1991 he qualified for one of most specialised ratings of all, the approval to fly a jet aircraft as a single pilot.

Dick Smith has flown a total time of over 10,000 hours including over 1,000 hours single pilot jet time. He has made five flights around the world as pilot in command. Each of these flights has succeeded on time and as scheduled because of meticulous planning and thorough risk management.

Dick Smith was appointed to the CAA Board in 1988 and was appointed its Chairman in 1989 by the then Prime Minister, Bob Hawke. As Chairman of the CAA, his Board and Management made major policy decisions including a change in direction to purchase a modern, “Two Centre” radar based air traffic control system using a proven design. The decision was also made to move to an international airspace system.

Dick Smith was appointed the Chairman of the Civil Aviation Safety Authority by the Transport Minister, Mark Vaile, in 1997. Dick was a member of the Aviation Reform Group from 2002 to 2004, and was a member of the Minister’s Aviation Regulation Review Taskforce.

Over more than fifteen years, Dick Smith has travelled the World and met with the leaders of air safety regulation in the USA, Canada, UK, New Zealand and France. During this time he has gained an extensive knowledge of airspace design.

He holds the United Kingdom’s Guild of Air Navigators Sword of Honour, the Australian Oswald Watt Medal and the United States Lindbergh Award. In 1999 he was awarded the Order of Australia for his service to the Australian aviation industry. In 2013 Dick was inducted into the Australian Aviation Hall of Fame and in 2015 his Order of Australia was advanced to a Companion of the Order of Australia for amongst other things, his eminent service to aviation.

Dick Smith is genuinely concerned about aviation safety in Australia. He is also concerned that important air traffic reforms that were started by the Hawke Government in 1990 have not been completed.”

And Max barely scratched the surface.

How many self confessed "professional" pilots can even get close to that, for qualifications to speak about the aviation sector in Australia.

And, just in passing, I have quite often flown with Dick over the years, sometime in very inclement weather, he is a bleeding sight better stick and rudder man than many airline pilots I have known, probably because of his much broader type and geographic experience than many military/airline pilots.

Tootle pip!!
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Old 13th Mar 2018, 14:17
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there is an enormous bias in this country by REGIONALS against retired airline pilots
Has been like that for many years. In 1985 I was retrenched from an overseas airline where I had been flying 737's. I was 53 at the time. I applied to Kendalls as a first officer. I even talked to Don Kendall. He was blunt on the phone and told me he would not embarrass his young captains by having an old bloke like me with them in the cockpit. He then added salt into the wound by saying sneeringly that in any case he doubted at my age I could lift passenger suitcases into the hold.

Similar attitude when I applied to an MU2 operator. His reply was that being on the 737 I would not have the ability to fly single pilot IFR and in any case, being ex RAAF, I would expect too much of the serviceability of the aircraft. Then going back a few decades to 1956 I had an interview with Ansett. I was then 24 with RAAF experience including over 1000 hours command on four-engine bombers. Thanks, but no thanks. Reason given? I was too old for Ansett at age 24 and in any case Ansett preferred GA pilots to ex RAAF.

Last edited by Centaurus; 13th Mar 2018 at 14:39.
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Old 13th Mar 2018, 21:02
  #794 (permalink)  
 
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Bloody Hell Centauris, talk about timing.

When I was a freshly minted CPL (at the ripe old age of 24), unless you had at least 2,500 hours and a thousand multi by 25, you were NEVER going to be accepted by a major Domestic carrier!

Funny how the Airline’s requirements of demographic/experience has changed in the face of the demands on supply.

A man could become quite cynical.
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Old 13th Mar 2018, 22:11
  #795 (permalink)  
 
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Krusty and Centauraus,

Being in my 20s now I have never heard anything of the sort. Shows how things have changed. And that alot of people in their 40s and 50s having second careers in flying seem to find that advantageous. Came across an SO not so long ago with a 10 years of service lanyard at QF who was older than the captain.
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Old 13th Mar 2018, 22:20
  #796 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KRUSTY 34 View Post
A man could become quite cynical.
KRUSTY,

Anyone who isn't cynical (and skeptical) isn't paying attention. Perhaps there's an advantage to those who aren't.
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Old 13th Mar 2018, 22:51
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I hear ya guys.
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Old 14th Mar 2018, 02:14
  #798 (permalink)  
 
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When I was a freshly minted CPL (at the ripe old age of 24), unless you had at least 2,500 hours and a thousand multi by 25, you were NEVER going to be accepted by a major Domestic carrier!
And yet not so long ago, around the time Ansett went bust, 2,500 hours was no where near enough to even get a look in at flying a Chieftain with a charter mob...
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Old 14th Mar 2018, 03:28
  #799 (permalink)  
 
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Then going back a few decades to 1956 I had an interview with Ansett. I was then 24 with RAAF experience including over 1000 hours command on four-engine bombers. Thanks, but no thanks. Reason given? I was too old for Ansett at age 24 and in any case Ansett preferred GA pilots to ex RAAF.
So what did Qantas and TAA say to you? I assume you also applied to them.
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Old 14th Mar 2018, 15:01
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I wonder when/if Oz HR departments will have a similar attitude.
"My personal goal is as many as we can get—minimum at 400,” Nguyen said. “Our attrition is very high as well. So we lose about 20 to 30 to 35, sometimes 40, pilots to major airlines each month."
Airlines Recruiting Like Crazy To Address Pilot Shortage | KUOW News and Information
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