Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Pilot shortage

Old 13th Mar 2018, 08:59
  #781 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 4,941
Dick Smith is a private pilot. He is no more an expert on aviation than Geoffrey Thomas.
Clare Prop,
That is one of the more stupid things I have seen written about Dick. So you do a few more exams and a flight test and get a CPL or up, that immediately makes you an expert on the aviation industry.

I don't think so!!

But don't take my word for it, here is what Max Hazelton had to say, I presume you do know who Max is??:

For those who believe Dick Smith has no more experience that Geoffrey Thomas, below is text from a bio on Dick written by Max Hazelton a number of years ago:

“Dick Smith learnt to fly in 1972 gaining his Command Instrument Rating in 1983. In 1991 he qualified for one of most specialised ratings of all, the approval to fly a jet aircraft as a single pilot.

Dick Smith has flown a total time of over 10,000 hours including over 1,000 hours single pilot jet time. He has made five flights around the world as pilot in command. Each of these flights has succeeded on time and as scheduled because of meticulous planning and thorough risk management.

Dick Smith was appointed to the CAA Board in 1988 and was appointed its Chairman in 1989 by the then Prime Minister, Bob Hawke. As Chairman of the CAA, his Board and Management made major policy decisions including a change in direction to purchase a modern, “Two Centre” radar based air traffic control system using a proven design. The decision was also made to move to an international airspace system.

Dick Smith was appointed the Chairman of the Civil Aviation Safety Authority by the Transport Minister, Mark Vaile, in 1997. Dick was a member of the Aviation Reform Group from 2002 to 2004, and was a member of the Minister’s Aviation Regulation Review Taskforce.

Over more than fifteen years, Dick Smith has travelled the World and met with the leaders of air safety regulation in the USA, Canada, UK, New Zealand and France. During this time he has gained an extensive knowledge of airspace design.

He holds the United Kingdom’s Guild of Air Navigators Sword of Honour, the Australian Oswald Watt Medal and the United States Lindbergh Award. In 1999 he was awarded the Order of Australia for his service to the Australian aviation industry. In 2013 Dick was inducted into the Australian Aviation Hall of Fame and in 2015 his Order of Australia was advanced to a Companion of the Order of Australia for amongst other things, his eminent service to aviation.

Dick Smith is genuinely concerned about aviation safety in Australia. He is also concerned that important air traffic reforms that were started by the Hawke Government in 1990 have not been completed.”

And Max barely scratched the surface.

How many self confessed "professional" pilots can even get close to that, for qualifications to speak about the aviation sector in Australia.

And, just in passing, I have quite often flown with Dick over the years, sometime in very inclement weather, he is a bleeding sight better stick and rudder man than many airline pilots I have known, probably because of his much broader type and geographic experience than many military/airline pilots.

Tootle pip!!
LeadSled is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2018, 14:17
  #782 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 4,101
there is an enormous bias in this country by REGIONALS against retired airline pilots
Has been like that for many years. In 1985 I was retrenched from an overseas airline where I had been flying 737's. I was 53 at the time. I applied to Kendalls as a first officer. I even talked to Don Kendall. He was blunt on the phone and told me he would not embarrass his young captains by having an old bloke like me with them in the cockpit. He then added salt into the wound by saying sneeringly that in any case he doubted at my age I could lift passenger suitcases into the hold.

Similar attitude when I applied to an MU2 operator. His reply was that being on the 737 I would not have the ability to fly single pilot IFR and in any case, being ex RAAF, I would expect too much of the serviceability of the aircraft. Then going back a few decades to 1956 I had an interview with Ansett. I was then 24 with RAAF experience including over 1000 hours command on four-engine bombers. Thanks, but no thanks. Reason given? I was too old for Ansett at age 24 and in any case Ansett preferred GA pilots to ex RAAF.

Last edited by Centaurus; 13th Mar 2018 at 14:39.
Centaurus is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2018, 21:02
  #783 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 2,194
Bloody Hell Centauris, talk about timing.

When I was a freshly minted CPL (at the ripe old age of 24), unless you had at least 2,500 hours and a thousand multi by 25, you were NEVER going to be accepted by a major Domestic carrier!

Funny how the Airlineís requirements of demographic/experience has changed in the face of the demands on supply.

A man could become quite cynical.
KRUSTY 34 is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2018, 22:11
  #784 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Between a Rock and a Hard Place
Posts: 144
Krusty and Centauraus,

Being in my 20s now I have never heard anything of the sort. Shows how things have changed. And that alot of people in their 40s and 50s having second careers in flying seem to find that advantageous. Came across an SO not so long ago with a 10 years of service lanyard at QF who was older than the captain.
Jeps is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2018, 22:20
  #785 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 2,553
Originally Posted by KRUSTY 34 View Post
A man could become quite cynical.
KRUSTY,

Anyone who isn't cynical (and skeptical) isn't paying attention. Perhaps there's an advantage to those who aren't.
bafanguy is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2018, 22:51
  #786 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 2,194
I hear ya guys.
KRUSTY 34 is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2018, 02:14
  #787 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Enroute from Dagobah to Tatooine...!
Posts: 781
When I was a freshly minted CPL (at the ripe old age of 24), unless you had at least 2,500 hours and a thousand multi by 25, you were NEVER going to be accepted by a major Domestic carrier!
And yet not so long ago, around the time Ansett went bust, 2,500 hours was no where near enough to even get a look in at flying a Chieftain with a charter mob...
Captain Nomad is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2018, 03:28
  #788 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 513
Then going back a few decades to 1956 I had an interview with Ansett. I was then 24 with RAAF experience including over 1000 hours command on four-engine bombers. Thanks, but no thanks. Reason given? I was too old for Ansett at age 24 and in any case Ansett preferred GA pilots to ex RAAF.
So what did Qantas and TAA say to you? I assume you also applied to them.
Lookleft is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2018, 15:01
  #789 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Global Citizen
Posts: 144
I wonder when/if Oz HR departments will have a similar attitude.
"My personal goal is as many as we can getóminimum at 400,Ē Nguyen said. ďOur attrition is very high as well. So we lose about 20 to 30 to 35, sometimes 40, pilots to major airlines each month."
Airlines Recruiting Like Crazy To Address Pilot Shortage | KUOW News and Information
stormfury is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2018, 15:18
  #790 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 4,941
It actually works fine for everybody involved:
1. Chinese airlines will get their schools and their pilots. All of them on OZ license initially.
2. CASA will be reporting an increase in newly issued licenses and will be patting themselves on the back for an amazing job done.
Folks,
Probably not, in the case of the contracts with PRC airlines.
The training will be done as "students" and the only license issued will be a CAAC MPL.
I am sure CASA will look for other ways of taking entirely undeserved credit, but if CASA treat any of the schools the way China Southern WAFC has been treated, they will be off out of Australia like fartled stawns ----- again!!
Tootle pip!!
LeadSled is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2018, 00:53
  #791 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Doomagee
Age: 8
Posts: 725
So we lose about 20 to 30 to 35, sometimes 40, pilots to major airlines each month."
So your conditions aren’t up to scratch. All good normally but when things pick up people leave.
Berealgetreal is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2018, 02:24
  #792 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Global Citizen
Posts: 144
Originally Posted by Berealgetreal View Post
So your conditions arenít up to scratch. All good normally but when things pick up people leave.
Exactly!!!! People will move to a position where they are either respected and/or remunerated properly. That said, currently, there is no shortage of younger folk willing to endure the pain of low wages until they have the hours to move onto something better. This is something aviation HR departments need to acknowledge and address or they will always be one step behind and floundering to get experienced pilots to stay.
stormfury is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2018, 05:31
  #793 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Brisvegas
Posts: 2,975
The training will be done as "students" and the only license issued will be a CAAC MPL.
Leadsled is correct, foreign students normally only obtain a SPL in Australia.
Icarus2001 is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2018, 10:03
  #794 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Accross Europe
Posts: 70
Moron! Sorry excuse me Morno! Are you serious or just joking around?

Originally Posted by morno View Post
Not my problem if you didnít do it.

Personally I think in the future Australia will have no choice but to hire DECís. The pool is drying up and could even get to the point where they get to seniority numbers that are just not ready to be upgraded, due to lack of experience or similar.
Iíve never seen such an inability to see the other sides point of view. Do you not see how your wild predictions merely support your own aspirations. (This is how wars start) You think you are hot because you got your widebody command and that everyone with less hours flying a narrow body is beneath you but secretly the reality is dawning on you of how empty life is in an ME3 hole on letís face it mediocre money these days given the cost of living and quality of life. You made your decision so grow up and accept the consequences. The world doesnít revolve around you mate.

FYI Iím not an Aussie and I work in China and I will probably be in the same boat when I leave. Thatís life!
CaptainJim is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2018, 17:20
  #795 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: 3rd rock from the sun
Posts: 1,764


Merely an opinion Jim. You donít have to berate me in that manner.

Youíre fairly off on my own personal circumstances as well. I donít live anywhere near the Middle East nor Fly a widebody.

But who cares, thatís not the topic of discussion.

See you back in Oz Jimmy!
morno is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2018, 19:31
  #796 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Australia
Age: 42
Posts: 23
Originally Posted by LeadSled View Post
Folks,
Probably not, in the case of the contracts with PRC airlines.
The training will be done as "students" and the only license issued will be a CAAC MPL.
I am sure CASA will look for other ways of taking entirely undeserved credit, but if CASA treat any of the schools the way China Southern WAFC has been treated, they will be off out of Australia like fartled stawns ----- again!!
Tootle pip!!
Thanks, it surprised me a lot. Are you saying that they will be completing integrated courses including ME and IR and won't get anything at the end? What about theory exams and MCC?

I know several people who had their initial training done in States - they all got their US licenses. My assumption was that we do it the same way.
ComradeRoo is offline  
Old 16th Mar 2018, 08:46
  #797 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 4,941
ComradeRoo,
They will all be completing courses, the components of which will, when completed, satisfy the all the CAAC requirements for the issue of an MPL. The final part of the course, an airline type aircraft type rating and route training, is conducted in conjunction with the sponsoring airline.

The Australian licensing and rating structure is largely irrelevant. Indeed, the less they have to do with CASA, the better the sponsoring airlines like it.

This is not limited to PR China, as I understand it there are now courses being conducted here under EASA approvals where the license finally issued will be an EASA MPL issued by the national authority of the sponsoring airline in the EU.

The positive attractiveness of Australia for training is the wide open spaces and good weather, ie; no airspace restrictions, the very significant negatives are CASA and officious bureaucracy in general, and relatively high costs, compared to Canada and the US.

Those high costs are largely brought about by CASA and officious bureaucracy in general.

Tootle pip!!

PS: It would be interesting to see the reaction to the idea of running an FAA Part 142 flying school in Australia, all with N- registered aircraft.
LeadSled is offline  
Old 16th Mar 2018, 09:27
  #798 (permalink)  
Seagull201
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:The training will be done as "students" and the only license issued will be a CAAC MPL.
Quote: Leadsled is correct, foreign students normally only obtain a SPL in Australia.

If foreign students such as from China, don't obtain any AU pilot qualifications during their training on Australian territory, how can they legally fly solo, during cross country training under a SPL (student pilot license) ?

How would insurance cover this if there was a mishap?

Quote:
This is not limited to PR China, as I understand it there are now courses being conducted here under EASA approvals where the license finally issued will be an EASA MPL issued by the national authority of the sponsoring airline in the EU.

Where are courses being conducted for a EU MPL at the moment in AU?
Perth had JAA courses previously.
Don't know anyone in the JAA member states that has a MPL?



.
 
Old 16th Mar 2018, 20:17
  #799 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Global Citizen
Posts: 144
Originally Posted by Seagull201 View Post
If foreign students such as from China, don't obtain any AU pilot qualifications during their training on Australian territory, how can they legally fly solo, during cross country training under a SPL (student pilot license) ?

How would insurance cover this if there was a mishap?
From the CASA website: ďDo I need a licence to fly as a student pilot?

You don't need a licence to fly as a student because you are under the supervision of a flight instructor and you flying school at all times while you are learning, including when you are flying solo.

However, to fly solo you need to have an aviation reference number, which you can obtain from CASA, and you need to provide CASA with your proof of identity.

To fly solo, you also need to hold a medical certificate.

Refer to CASA's information sheets about learning to fly and medical requirements for flight crew for more information.Ē

https://www.casa.gov.au/standard-pag...student-pilots
stormfury is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2018, 04:34
  #800 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 4,941
Seagull201,
JAA is long since extinct, and the whole policy base of the current EASA has turned much of the JAA approach on its head.

For example:
(1) EASA's approach to regulation is outcome based, not JAA prescriptive.
(2) The current head of EASA has shut down the rule-making branch, on the basis of: "if you hire a body of people to write rules, that is exactly what they will do, to justify their existence".

If you have any doubt about (2) just look at CASA.

Don't know anyone in the JAA member states that has a MPL?
The very first MPLs issued were by one of the Scandinavian states, very closely followed by CAAC. I can't remember the name of the airline, but I do recall that they commented that MPL trained pilots were better prepared for initial line operations as F/Os than conventional intake pilots.

Tootle pip!!
LeadSled is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.