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Pilot shortage

Old 18th Jan 2018, 04:25
  #581 (permalink)  
 
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For a start, it has the potential to build character.
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Old 18th Jan 2018, 04:58
  #582 (permalink)  
 
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Everyone says "just head up north", but how many GA operations actually exist "up north" that actually take fresh CPL's?
I can't speak for GA in Australia, but can certainly assure you that GA in PNG is a mere shadow of what it was 30 or even 20 years ago. Some of the reasons differ from Australia (virtual non-availability of Avgas, CASA PNG imposed minimum experience requirements, tougher rules for obtaining a work permit etc), but the fact this that there just are no entry-level positions in PNG. Solomons has no expats either from what I understand.
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Old 18th Jan 2018, 06:23
  #583 (permalink)  
 
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Keep seeing more and more job ads, yet bugger all increases in pay and conditions... who will cave first thatís the question! - ChaseIt

That there is EXACTLY the issue!

Some Airline managements overseas recognised it long ago and increased T's & C's to attract the crew & "save face", as it was very much a cultural pressure at play... not being the one responsible for having expensive aircraft parked against the fence. Fingers were pointed and managers responsible lost their jobs!

Now Australia... plenty of serious stern looks across Boardroom tables as pens are pushed around... meetings had with plenty of big fluffy words from HR & Consultants BUT STILL NO INCREASE IN TERMS & CONDITIONS!

Australia is an expensive, litigious and bureaucratic place now, regardless of all the lovely words mentioned previously like

Yes, each to their own, regarding personal circumstances plus the good point made earlier on generational capacities of the Baby-boomers etc etc.

Until more $$ are on the table for those at the coal face INSTEAD of bonuses for the Million Dollar muppets responsible for this, pilots (& engineers) will continue to flock overseas to gain respect, dollars and their early retirement.
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Old 18th Jan 2018, 10:21
  #584 (permalink)  
 
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Oh sure didn’t mean it in a “couldn’t be bothered telling you way”. More like we won’t try to convince people that think it’s pointless and has no added value to the growth of a pilot. Besides just because a pilot didn’t do the pilgrimage doesn’t mean they are a lessor candidate. I do know for me at least, it put me in multiple sticky situations nearly everyday. I probably needed it!

There were some good times and some bad times I’m just glad I didn’t get killed as quite a few I knew did. PNG? That’s another level again...
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Old 18th Jan 2018, 10:53
  #585 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Berealgetreal View Post
Oh sure didnít mean it in a ďcouldnít be bothered telling you wayĒ. More like we wonít try to convince people that think itís pointless and has no added value to the growth of a pilot. Besides just because a pilot didnít do the pilgrimage doesnít mean they are a lessor candidate. I do know for me at least, it put me in multiple sticky situations nearly everyday. I probably needed it!

There were some good times and some bad times Iím just glad I didnít get killed as quite a few I knew did. PNG? Thatís another level again...
Ah ok, yeah that makes sense. I completely agree that the flying experience would be amazing and could only make you a better pilot.
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Old 18th Jan 2018, 22:39
  #586 (permalink)  
 
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A320A321


I spent about 45 minutes trolling bunches of websites looking for the information. I appreciate your apology, but there was no need to fire off like a an old grouch at all. For someone who knows, just putting the figure here would have taken less time than what you wrote. So you wasted your own time.


Everyone seems to forget that PPRuNe is like a chat in a pub between mates, nothing more. Such as after an aircraft accident - if 5 pilots were in a pub discussing it and speculating, none of them would do the old "let's wait for the report fellas before speculating." We'd chat about it. Likewise, if 5 of us were in a pub and I said how much does an F/O at Alliance earn, would you turn to me and say look it up on FWA, stop wasting our time? I doubt it. PPRuNe is a pub chat. Lefties not needed here.


And the reason I spent so long on line looking for the answer was because I just knew that if I asked here some twisted and bitter zipperhead would reply just as you did.
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Old 18th Jan 2018, 22:58
  #587 (permalink)  
 
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Well said TTL.
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Old 18th Jan 2018, 23:00
  #588 (permalink)  
 
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Some years ago I crunched the numbers on how much it would cost to install a pilot retention bonus. Not a pretend or cynical low shelf life token that weíve seen pop up from time to time, but a permanent and significant enticement to stay put.
I share the sentiment Krusty. It isn't about money, sadly they know the price of everything, the value of nothing.
As the airlines found that do take a different line, labour unit cost should be a consideration not an absolute focus.

Herb Kelleher worked from the other end, starting with employees and working backwards...Worked for just on 50 years.

A company is stronger if bound by love, than by fear.

-Herb Kelleher

Cannot imagine a Leigh Clifford, 'self anointed industry captain' type even under duress mouthing such sentiment. Sadly for him he is shortly to be consigned to history as he is pretty much done as his his model of 'leadership'.

Airlines that treat people with respect, not weasel words through faux smiles and focus groups will actually firstly attract qualified crew and then keep them.

We are a while off that yet, but demographics ensure they will be forced to change.
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Old 19th Jan 2018, 02:11
  #589 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Trevor the lover View Post
A320A321


I spent about 45 minutes trolling bunches of websites looking for the information. I appreciate your apology, but there was no need to fire off like a an old grouch at all. For someone who knows, just putting the figure here would have taken less time than what you wrote. So you wasted your own time.


Everyone seems to forget that PPRuNe is like a chat in a pub between mates, nothing more. Such as after an aircraft accident - if 5 pilots were in a pub discussing it and speculating, none of them would do the old "let's wait for the report fellas before speculating." We'd chat about it. Likewise, if 5 of us were in a pub and I said how much does an F/O at Alliance earn, would you turn to me and say look it up on FWA, stop wasting our time? I doubt it. PPRuNe is a pub chat. Lefties not needed here.


And the reason I spent so long on line looking for the answer was because I just knew that if I asked here some twisted and bitter zipperhead would reply just as you did.
I'm not an old grouch mate, I'm in my mid 20's. If I knew I'd tell ya but I think it's obvious given my name that I work for another mob.
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Old 19th Jan 2018, 03:49
  #590 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KRUSTY 34 View Post
I hear you as well Ratedí.

I guess the cynic in me is grappling with what will come first.

An enlightened and engaged employer who would lead the way in reinvigorating the profession.

Or a shrewd management who is able to put their disdane (in this case) for traditional market drivers aside, and stitch up as many experienced pilots as they can before the shortage really starts to bite.

Frankly, I think either option is probably beyond most of them.
At the end of the day airline managements would rather take a punt that costs them millions rather than pay us anymore than they think they need to. The finest example is the Qantas lockout.

They en hate pilots.
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Old 19th Jan 2018, 04:14
  #591 (permalink)  
 
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Agreed Angryrat, it reminds me of a famous quote:
Americans can always be counted on to do the right thingÖafter they have exhausted all other possibilities.
--Attributed (falsely) to Winston Churchill
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Old 19th Jan 2018, 16:16
  #592 (permalink)  
 
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I just don't understand why airlines hate pilots so much. But could it be that we're seeing a normalisation of the Aviation industry because more people are able to travel by planes now than ever before? Like when buses for example were first introduced surely the prices would have been expensive then later on it obviously decreased. So it's like pilots are being treated as bus drivers, some airlines just don't seem to recognise the skill set required for being a pilot.
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Old 19th Jan 2018, 19:17
  #593 (permalink)  
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They are about to find out how long it takes to build the skill set of an average Airline Captain I reckon.
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Old 19th Jan 2018, 22:09
  #594 (permalink)  
 
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So it's like pilots are being treated as bus drivers, some airlines just don't seem to recognise the skill set required for being a pilot.
Corporations are today divided: Administration and Operation. Very much by design. As a result driven by MBA process learning 'manager' see labour unit cost as something to be reduced.

The dis-function evident in many industries is attributable to the divide between function and administration. It is something academia and industry are trying to overcome; the lack of knowledge has real implications on business performance. Lack of operational knowledge costs...

For managers, pilots were in unlimited supply.

Regional airlines in Australia plundered GA, GA itself provided opportunities but also exploited pilots who had expended substantial funds acquiring entry level skills. The military too suffered as when the big airlines opened the door they lost crew.

None of these entities saw a problem in not giving back. The allowed administration to denigrate, employer heavy 'legislation and bargaining saw downward pressure on terms and conditions an accepted norm, and in Australia CASA over regulated the smaller and was captured by the larger aviation interests.

Supply of resources are finite, pilots are no exception.

The paradigm has changed and through gritted teeth and false smiles will be words like respect...Think Michael O'Leary in the recent months

Watch the airlines open flight training businesses 'to give back'.
Having set up floors at Waterside, CX city and Coward Street airlines have to confront the reality that the downward pressure and denigration of terms and conditions they loved inflicting is over, the careers they stymied, the cowardly way they hide behind terms like efficiency and market rates, world best practice will progressively disappear
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Old 19th Jan 2018, 23:56
  #595 (permalink)  
 
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Watch the airlines open flight training businesses 'to give back'.
Having set up floors at Waterside, CX city and Coward Street airlines have to confront the reality that the downward pressure and denigration of terms and conditions they loved inflicting is over, the careers they stymied, the cowardly way they hide behind terms like efficiency and market rates, world best practice will progressively disappear

Agreed. The hardest thing now is to convince pilots to accelerate this change by being bold and forcing the point about their professional worth to their respective companies. It will only be a slow and incremental process if pilots allow it to be.
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Old 20th Jan 2018, 00:07
  #596 (permalink)  
 
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IMO pilot T&C's will never improve in this country until the pilot group can get one united union. The fragmentation of the present arrangement plays right into the hands of management. At my previous carrier we had pilots who were either members of VIPA, AFAP or TWU. Game, set and match to management!

Just look at the T&C's of any job the CFMEU have their paws on. People with a much smaller skill set then pilots often getting paid significantly more. My favourite is the unskilled labourer on the Tullamarine Freeway widening project who can pull 150K pa!

Management will exhaust all other options to deal with this 'pilot shortage' before increasing T&C's or the even more unlikely notion of 'respect' gets on their agenda. Think 457 Visa's, indefinitely stalling CAO 48.1 etc etc....
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Old 20th Jan 2018, 00:37
  #597 (permalink)  
 
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IMO pilot T&C's will never improve in this country until the pilot group can get one united union

,and not self serving ones either.
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Old 20th Jan 2018, 02:18
  #598 (permalink)  
 
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A320321 - "I'm not an old grouch mate, I'm in my mid 20's"


haha, get some time up mate
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Old 20th Jan 2018, 02:46
  #599 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by angryrat View Post
The finest example is the Qantas lockout.

They en hate pilots.
Angry rat, if you truly believe that then you donít understand one iota of what that was all about.
BTW have you heard much from Steve Purvinas or Tony Sheldon on airline industrial matters since that unfortunate occurrence?
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Old 20th Jan 2018, 10:25
  #600 (permalink)  
 
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Bet on the rider, not on the horse.

Originally Posted by Rated De View Post
I share the sentiment Krusty. It isn't about money, sadly they know the price of everything, the value of nothing.
As the airlines found that do take a different line, labour unit cost should be a consideration not an absolute focus.

Herb Kelleher worked from the other end, starting with employees and working backwards...Worked for just on 50 years.

A company is stronger if bound by love, than by fear.

-Herb Kelleher

Cannot imagine a Leigh Clifford, 'self anointed industry captain' type even under duress mouthing such sentiment. Sadly for him he is shortly to be consigned to history as he is pretty much done as his his model of 'leadership'.

Airlines that treat people with respect, not weasel words through faux smiles and focus groups will actually firstly attract qualified crew and then keep them.

We are a while off that yet, but demographics ensure they will be forced to change.

Who did Herb Kelleher have to answer to? How about Richard Branson? Elon Musk? Steven Jobs? Visionaries who change the world rarely have to do a board of directors carpet dance explaining why they chose to to do great things, like make the iphone, limit their fleet to one type of aircraft, or why they chose to reinvest their PayPal corporate earnings into an electric car startup. There's a saying in investing: "bet on the horse, not on the rider". I know we do not often have the opportunity to choose which "horse" we are betting our careers on in aviation, but at least we can be wise enough to know when we should have a plan B in place. When I arrived on site at one job I was told that I should think of my new position as if I had been handed two buckets. One for bullsh*t and one for $$. When either bucket was full, it was time to move on. My BS bucket has grown smaller and smaller with age. I might suggest that if one arrives on property with their BS bucket already half full, they'd better keep an eye out for another horse to wager on. Some jockies flog their horses and achieve short-term victories. Some have a partnership and create industry icons that consistently lead the herd.
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