Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Pilot shortage

Old 29th Dec 2017, 14:03
  #481 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Kraus View Post
I certainly accept that there is an impending shortage of pilots. As for Australian pilots, there's a shirt load of them, just not in Australia. You can direct blame to Dixon's etc and you'd probably be right. How many CX pilots started out on the dash 8 in Australia? Obviously the bottom feeders are going to feel the shortage first and I assume that's happening now. Even with the issue of a 457 visa, a tour is Australia is only going to be for 1500 hours and then it's off to delta or united.
No one in the US would bother going to Australia when there’s such a shortage over here already.
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Old 29th Dec 2017, 16:14
  #482 (permalink)  

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I can't see many experienced pilots in Europe heading to Australia for a 2 year visa.
A few colleagues have asked about what's going on, after filling them in, they said it wasn't worth the effort.
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Old 29th Dec 2017, 19:49
  #483 (permalink)  
 
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Hi All,

44 years old, EAsa ATP 2000TT 1500 jet Airbus rated no time on it.
Several aeronautical experience.

Suitable companies to apply for?
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Old 29th Dec 2017, 20:58
  #484 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by liftman View Post
Hi All,

44 years old, EAsa ATP 2000TT 1500 jet Airbus rated no time on it.
Several aeronautical experience.

Suitable companies to apply for?
Realistically, none. There is no shortage of people with your qualifications.
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Old 30th Dec 2017, 00:31
  #485 (permalink)  
 
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At my current employer, every second Aussie I meet is an ex Qlink hold filer. If Qlink gave them start dates within a reasonable time frame or, at least been forthcoming with information and a little more open I guarantee most of them would be at Qlink. But they are not. Instead they are building jet time in the USA.

So..How about you don't leave people sitting on a hold file for 12-18 months with little/ no communication. These boys and girls have done everything asked of them through the selection process yet, you treat them with such disrespect. Pilots with GA experience sit on the hold file whilst you give UNSW cadets start dates.

They can either sit and wait for the chance to fly the space shuttle Q400 (knowing that they have a 1 in 1000 chance of ever getting into mainline) or, they can choose to go down a different path and get some jet experience. HMMMM yeh I wonder why they chose the USA.
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Old 30th Dec 2017, 03:25
  #486 (permalink)  
 
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A former COO remarked to me a decade ago, “Don’t worry Krusty, we’ll always be able to get pilots”. While the frenzy of the pre GFC was sharp and relatively short, it led to in some instances, an almost 50% cancellation rate at the airline! Even back then however, the long term writing was on the wall.

This time it is deeper and more profound than a mere expansion at the “Majors”, and It will take a generation or more to put right. Asuming of course the Numptys looking at the light in the tunnel, have even the first clue as to what’s coming at them?

I for one won’t be holding my breath.
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Old 30th Dec 2017, 04:11
  #487 (permalink)  
 
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The lesson from Horizon Air (https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/horizon-air-cutting-hundreds-of-flights-this-summer-due-to-pilot-shortage/) and Ryan air (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ryanair-pilots-insight/three-months-that-shook-ryanair-how-cancellations-sparked-a-pilot-revolt-idUSKBN1EE2D1) is that some airlines' HR departments are stubbornly short-sighted. It appears they would cut off their noses to spite their faces. Some airlines can plan their staffing properly, and some can't. I would rather work for the first bunch. Poor planning correlates directly to poor IR and management indifference to the humans who make up their Human Resources. If they want to run their sh*tty airlines out of business with poor planning, I'm happy to help by not sending in a rezzie.
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Old 30th Dec 2017, 07:51
  #488 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by redsnail View Post
I can't see many experienced pilots in Europe heading to Australia for a 2 year visa.
A few colleagues have asked about what's going on, after filling them in, they said it wasn't worth the effort.
Nah, they are just scared of all the various spiders and snakes and crocodiles and sharks and jellyfish and drop bears etc etc that can kill them. Everything else down under is great and worth the adventure. So many Europeans there already, they'll feel right at home. The skies are reasonably safe, just be careful where you sit or swim.
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Old 2nd Jan 2018, 19:48
  #489 (permalink)  
 
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Chinese airlines are poaching *experienced Australian pilots by offering more than $750,000 a year, leading to concerns pilot shortages may spread from *regional Australia to major routes.

Combined with a decline in Australian pilot training, the *lucrative Chinese contracts have prompted some pilots to warn of potential shortages of major airline captains amid a developing global shortage.



They are talking about 737 training captains earning *upwards of $US600,000 ($769,000) tax-free and that’s going to be difficult even for the major Australian airlines to cope with,”
It was only a few months ago, that this shortage was dismissed as yet another case of Australian exceptionalism. (Australia is not different)

Airlines have used adversarial IR driving conditions (not just salary) to the point where rational people look elsewhere.
Gutting GA when it suited them and allowing the taxpayer through the military to foot the bill for pilot training they proceeded as though supply was unlimited. It isn't. Naturally the state of aviation as an industry and a career is a multi faceted problem, with many competing parts.

The fact remains that the shortage is real, it is not cyclical and short term remedies may protect next year's bonus, but the shortage will continue to bite.

With employers in the western hemisphere used to getting their way with 'outcomes' and bargaining/negotiation Australian pilots may be in for a wild ride!

If I were sitting there in bulls&it castle wondering how to address this problem I would do exactly as the major employer has done:

  1. Try to integrate foreign pilots into Australian domestic flying-thus establishing precedent
  2. Introduce 'jets' to a subsidiary- The fear factor
  3. Quietly lobby to improve supply-457 Visa
  4. Continue with Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.
It is not beyond the realms that regional airline networks are simply unable to be crewed.

Would it be pertinent for airlines recognising such a problem to lobby Oberfuhrer Dutton to place airline flights on the essential services, you know 'national interest' list thereby stopping pilots, cabin crew and engineers from allowing a shortage of crew to disrupt the 'vital air bridges'?


Whilst there is mere postulation, it is relevant as the airlines lobbied quietly for a period of time, with the 457 announcement made in the quietest media period; that between Christmas and New Year. It would appear that all major unions, despite a supposed lobbying presence in Canberra did not see this one coming.
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Old 2nd Jan 2018, 21:49
  #490 (permalink)  
 
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We will soon find out if the IR landscape has begun to change as one EBA recently voted on gets a suspected strong NO from the pilots. Current feelings are that despite their employer coming with their "best offer", it will not be enough to be successful. Many will probably agree to the deal still fearful of the oft threatened contract cancellation, but many more are waking up to the fact that they are actually valuable to the operation.


I tiny group compared to the entire industry perhaps, but a strong indicator none the less as the pilots in question are traditionally easily controlled by fear and trickery. Once the low end of the marked rids itself of fear, the worm has most certainly turned.


Stay tuned and stay strong my friends.

Last edited by Blitzkrieger; 2nd Jan 2018 at 22:20.
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Old 4th Jan 2018, 00:43
  #491 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Blitzkrieger View Post
We will soon find out if the IR landscape has begun to change as one EBA recently voted on gets a suspected strong NO from the pilots. Current feelings are that despite their employer coming with their "best offer", it will not be enough to be successful. Many will probably agree to the deal still fearful of the oft threatened contract cancellation, but many more are waking up to the fact that they are actually valuable to the operation
If you're referring to Jetconnect I wouldn't hold my breath. Jetconnect Captains are like skittish horses... very easily spooked. Even the distant whisper of "contract cancellation" has them bolting to sign whatever is put under their noses.
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Old 4th Jan 2018, 13:14
  #492 (permalink)  
 
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I consider myself fairly au fait with the current contracts in China. I have seen nothing like $700k. Why aren't AFAP, AIPA and VIPA attacking this disinformation?
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Old 4th Jan 2018, 17:49
  #493 (permalink)  
 
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If you're referring to Jetconnect
I was referring to Cobham pilots Jetconnector but it sounds like the tactics are consistent across the outsourced ones. Why anyone is contemplating accepting a trashy deal defies any logic nowadays. The implied outcome to any resistance is still the fear of unemployment....They can hardly crew the flying they have as it is and we’re the ones who should be afraid? Give me strength! The plain fact is this: the market has changed to one where the pilots are more valuable than they were a year ago, and next year it will be more so, and so on. The airlines know this but also know Joe Bloggs was easily spooked last time. It’s a game to see how long they can hold pilots to ransom. Once we wake up to that simple fact, equity can begin to be restored. It’s time to keep saying NO until the deal befits the value.

There is nothing to fear but fear itself.
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Old 5th Jan 2018, 23:47
  #494 (permalink)  
 
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I left Australia in 1985 to work overseas - and never returned. In hindsight, this was the best thing I could have done both for professional advancement and T&Cs.

I was shocked to discover that employers overseas did not consider you disloyal for writing up snags and they actually did they very best to fix them ASAP. After flying ancient 18,000 hour old PA31s in Oz, it was also a shock to my system to actually sit in brand spanking new aircraft and smell the leather as I picked them up from the factory. All beyond my wildest dreams in my GA days in Oz - and still beyond the wildest dreams of Aussie pilots. You can probably count on your fingers the number of Aussie based pilots who have sat in an airframe with less than 10 hours on it. And yet elsewhere, this is quite unremarkable and not uncommon.

I really cannot see anyone worthwhile coming to Australia on the indentured servitude terms which occur here. As an aside, do the airlines still only give F/O's the second class type rating which is non portable?
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Old 6th Jan 2018, 03:44
  #495 (permalink)  
 
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What will be interesting to watch is the movement of pilots from the Middle East Big 3, as those airlines will (IMHO) necessarily downsize with the advent of 777Xs etc. Will the thousands of pilots displaced by a ME3 downsize head to only Asia, or also to Australia to alleviate our supposed shortage ?
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Old 6th Jan 2018, 05:48
  #496 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by lucille View Post
As an aside, do the airlines still only give F/O's the second class type rating which is non portable?
I believe that the Co-pilot type rating went out with Part 61. Only command type ratings exist now.
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Old 6th Jan 2018, 07:11
  #497 (permalink)  
 
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Many of the Emirates pilots group are highly disgruntled with their lot in life in Dubai at the moment, the airline has been tightening the thumb screws on them rather maliciously for years. All to do with EK management disasters with their purchase of too many A380s which they need to recoup from the pilots salary budget, but that's another story. The solution to the pilot shortage in Australia is simple, the Australian airlines should just offer the EK pilots the same money they are on in Dubai plus another 50%. Many of those are Aussies anyway, no need for a 457. Emirates would be happy to offload all those expensive expatriate pilots and replace them with more cheap pilots from the capital. The Asian carriers would be forced to up their own training program to cover their losses to EK; heck, change a few things at CASA and they might even send their cadets to Australia to do flight training. It's a win win for both the Australian Airline industry who get access to a large group of highly experienced and well trained pilots, and a win for GA flight training industry who pick up contracts or get a good price for selling their business to foreign interests
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Old 6th Jan 2018, 07:25
  #498 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by allaru View Post
The solution to the pilot shortage in Australia is simple, the Australian airlines should just offer the EK pilots the same money they are on in Dubai plus another 50%. Many of those are Aussies anyway, no need for a 457. Emirates would be happy to offload all those expensive expatriate pilots and replace them with more cheap pilots from the capital.
Ha ha ha. Airlines loathe paying market rates (except when there is surplus) yet alone add 50%

The solution is start another subsidiary or entity on worse conditions and frighten the incumbents into line.

There, fixed.
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Old 6th Jan 2018, 07:30
  #499 (permalink)  
 
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All to do with EK management disasters with their purchase of too many A380s which they need to recoup from the pilots salary budget
Sounds familiar.

the Australian airlines should just offer the EK pilots the same money they are on in Dubai plus another 50%
No need to, there is an endless supply of 18 year olds that will sit in the seat.
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Old 6th Jan 2018, 08:45
  #500 (permalink)  
Keg

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Question

Originally Posted by allaru View Post
.... the Australian airlines should just offer the EK pilots the same money they are on in Dubai plus another 50%.
So pay them 50% more than they’re paying their current pilots? That should work!

Take home pay between QF and EK is pretty close from what I’ve been told. Of course you need to then add tax on top of that so not sure how this plan is going to work.
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