Pilot shortage
The pay has improved a bit with some increases in hourly rates plus sign-on and retention bonuses (and yes, those aren't "pay" increases by the strictest definition but are money in the pocket). The low pay got a lot of publicity following the KBUF crash but things have changed a bit to the better since then.
Throw in the "potential" upgrade within 2-3 years with attendant pay increase and it's an OK deal but subjectivity will determine each individual's outlook. Those to whom it doesn't appeal can pass and try something else.
Our Aussie compatriots can take the experience and relocate to better circumstances...or perhaps weave the magic spell on some of the local talent and end up with a green card.
The regionals aren't ordinarily a career destination although some people do stay to retirement. The whole airline biz is iffy enough but the regionals take it to a new level.
I think the hourly pay has somewhere near doubled since all the pilots were on food stamps, hence why a lot of Aussies are now deciding to go.
While definitely not up the top of the food chain, all indications I'm seeing are that you can definitely live on the pay. I have not seen one person who is there now complaining about it.
While definitely not up the top of the food chain, all indications I'm seeing are that you can definitely live on the pay. I have not seen one person who is there now complaining about it.
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- work on Days Off
- intersection departures
- Reduced thrust takeoffs
- Full IFR approaches
- Other fuel saving measures
??
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Whilst comfortably enjoying regular hours, weekends and public holidays your friendly HR/IR team spends its waking hours destroying work life balance for you and all operational staff. The pot of gold at the end of the rainbow is unit cost ZERO.
Sadly in the real world, where the money is actually generated for these types, the work life balance has been desecrated. O'Leary a pin up boy for adversarial relations IR models, stated;
“One of the issues that I think we have to address is that maybe we have got the pilot pay a bit on the low side,” O’Leary said. “Maybe we have pushed it a little bit far in terms of pilot pay and pilot productivity.”
When it gets that a fork tongue is speaking like that, this is not cyclical, this is structural.
Sadly in the real world, where the money is actually generated for these types, the work life balance has been desecrated. O'Leary a pin up boy for adversarial relations IR models, stated;
“One of the issues that I think we have to address is that maybe we have got the pilot pay a bit on the low side,” O’Leary said. “Maybe we have pushed it a little bit far in terms of pilot pay and pilot productivity.”
When it gets that a fork tongue is speaking like that, this is not cyclical, this is structural.
https://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/doc...wu_2017707.pdf
https://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/doc...ap_2017709.pdf
https://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/doc...ap_2017709.pdf
Last edited by Blitzkrieger; 27th Sep 2017 at 20:06.
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More pertinent, what percentage of those in the LHS are in the TWU? Someone in the RHS can squawk all they like, but the left makes the call for the operational PIA. If the the LSH isn't TWU then they cannot legally undertake PIA as I understand it.
There are less than a dozen pilots that do not belong to one of the unions or are not represented in one way shape or form. The vast majority are embracing all of the actions with gusto. I doubt if any aviation company in recent history has seen a more united workforce taking it to the CIA!
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framer
Replace "Pilot" with "Pilot willing to put up with the truly crap T&C's at J* props" then you're probably not too far wrong.
Almost two years after J*NZ started flying props, they are still relying on Qlink Captains to keep their (reduced) schedule operating.
Crew are still leaving faster than they can be trained.
Replace "Pilot" with "Pilot willing to put up with the truly crap T&C's at J* props" then you're probably not too far wrong.
Almost two years after J*NZ started flying props, they are still relying on Qlink Captains to keep their (reduced) schedule operating.
Crew are still leaving faster than they can be trained.
You’ve got Emirates giving Saab pilots jobs onto the 777, why hang around on a prop for 10 years with your employer giving no concrete confirmation of narrow body opportunities in the future.
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Good luck fellas but the Australian airline "management" have very thick skulls and HR are worse... with a type of arrogance and nepotism that's sadly prevalent in many other regions of this business. Fierce jingoism is still rife too, throughout Asian majors but that won't last much longer. The writing was on the wall for along time, over this shortage!
I haven't seen so many pages of Jobs Available on the AFAP site ever, in my career. Says one thing - no pilots are being trained up to cover growth, let-alone cover retirements (BA; VS; LH; US majors etc etc).
All the Middle East (not just the Big 4) are still screaming for pilots and are very short, while Ethiopian and Turkish delight open up more vacancies...(Korean continue to advertise :-) ) the list goes on and China seems the only place willing to "raise the bar" for Terms and Conditions.
Yes EK are taking prop-guys onto B777 and it is causing problems in training issues etc, so that has now moved the pressure onto an Airlines Training mechanisms more so, having to cope with such inexperience levels than they had for granted, previously.
It should also put pressure on HR Departments to background check and thoroughly undergo logbook checks again (most don't even do this!), as there is a huge increase in fake logbooks prevalent right now, taking advantage of the vacant cockpit seats.
Good reading on here and interested to hear others stories :-)
Happy landings.
I haven't seen so many pages of Jobs Available on the AFAP site ever, in my career. Says one thing - no pilots are being trained up to cover growth, let-alone cover retirements (BA; VS; LH; US majors etc etc).
All the Middle East (not just the Big 4) are still screaming for pilots and are very short, while Ethiopian and Turkish delight open up more vacancies...(Korean continue to advertise :-) ) the list goes on and China seems the only place willing to "raise the bar" for Terms and Conditions.
Yes EK are taking prop-guys onto B777 and it is causing problems in training issues etc, so that has now moved the pressure onto an Airlines Training mechanisms more so, having to cope with such inexperience levels than they had for granted, previously.
It should also put pressure on HR Departments to background check and thoroughly undergo logbook checks again (most don't even do this!), as there is a huge increase in fake logbooks prevalent right now, taking advantage of the vacant cockpit seats.
Good reading on here and interested to hear others stories :-)
Happy landings.
I doubt if any aviation company in recent history has seen a more united workforce taking it to the CIA!
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They will always have crewing issues due to their tiny fleet, not unique to this carrier alone, it’s a risk they took taking the dash into NZ. If one pilot calls in or resigns it drags the whole operation down, they won’t overcrew it because the low cost model won’t allow it. Management just live and hope everyone is happy and will be there for the long haul.
You’ve got Emirates giving Saab pilots jobs onto the 777, why hang around on a prop for 10 years with your employer giving no concrete confirmation of narrow body opportunities in the future.
You’ve got Emirates giving Saab pilots jobs onto the 777, why hang around on a prop for 10 years with your employer giving no concrete confirmation of narrow body opportunities in the future.
But we're talking J*NZ props, and not an established carrier who's had fairly stable crewing suddenly experience a high turnover of crew due to the resurgence of jet operators hiring.
This is an operation that is less than two years old! It was started after the recruitment drives began.
The reality is, is that by offering garbage T&C's to a pilot population that now has more opportunities for upward progression, they will always struggle to get Captains, and still require substantial help from EAA/SSA Q300 Captains to keep the operation going.
They get FO's who are grateful to have got out of GA charter and instructing. That wears off pretty quickly when the day-to-day reality of the lifestyle they signed up for hits home. So they leave. In droves.
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Symptomatic of the industry wide culture of treating staff like easily replaceable consumables and of management who, despite knowing exactly what immense value their staff bring to the organization, fail to acknowledge it. A culture driven by fear and the illusion of good, healthy HR practices
Exactly, certified, ratified agreements with fair recompense for the contribution pilots and other 'operational' sacrifices professionals make, have been undermined as HR/IR assumed never ending supply.
With enough signals out there rational participants sought a restoration of balance and Low Fare Airlines are not balanced; the deck is stacked with draconian 'productivity enhancing' practices that never affect their weekends off, but they affect yours!
It never was about remuneration, it is always about respect, the contempt management shows for operational staff has accelerated a reduction in supply that demographics will drive for the next decade...
Imagine the architect of an adversarial IR structure saying what Michael O'Leary said. For those who do not know Ryanair is extremely adversarial, and was the pretext for the creation of JQ, where staff will be worked very hard for five to seven years and then discarded for new ones....
Ryanair's problems are not cyclical, they are structural and their whole model of employee relations has numbered days..
“One of the issues that I think we have to address is that maybe we have got the pilot pay a bit on the low side,” O’Leary said. “Maybe we have pushed it a little bit far in terms of pilot pay and pilot productivity.”
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Imagine the architect of an adversarial IR structure saying what Michael O'Leary said. For those who do not know Ryanair is extremely adversarial, and was the pretext for the creation of JQ, where staff will be worked very hard for five to seven years and then discarded for new ones....
Ryanair's problems are not cyclical, they are structural and their whole model of employee relations has numbered days..
“One of the issues that I think we have to address is that maybe we have got the pilot pay a bit on the low side,” O’Leary said. “Maybe we have pushed it a little bit far in terms of pilot pay and pilot productivity.”
There is also a thread running about ryanair cancellations: http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...g-flights.html
PPRuNe thread on the ryanir cancellations & pilot shortage http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...g-flights.html
Last edited by CurtainTwitcher; 28th Sep 2017 at 23:49. Reason: ryanair thread added
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The shortage is real it is demographically generated. Whilst HR/IR continue to ignore it, as does the mainstream media it will change profoundly everything from asset markets to pilot supply.
Pilot supply is interesting as it has a few specific traits:
I would expect (although tightly controlled by HR) that the regional airlines (as in the USA) and indeed GA are really showing the shortage. Cost of living pressures in major cities and time to command at the 'whim of management' is not an encouraging mix. I have read the Qlink (and JQ NZ turbo prop) forum and suspect it is an indication of a structural shortage.
The JQ model rolled out in Australia is a Ryanair lite model as the IR protection although radically decayed, are not as weak as Ireland. Do not forget these executives all go to the same schools, Irish aviation is tight, your Joyce knows O'Leary and indeed a a cousin of IAG CEO Walsh.
The playbooks are all very similar; adversarial models, squeezing labour unit cost. As Horizon Air spectacularly proved, you can keep lower unit labour cost until you have no revenue. Genius.
O'Leary has big problems, his unit cost may be lower than southwest Airlines, but his revenue and profit will be non existent. The stark difference between the two airlines is not platitudes, it is respect. Southwest Airlines respect the contribution people make, Ryanair, JQ et al deride it and with vigour and ultimately it will hasten the beginning of a new paradigm in employee relations.
Of course Australia may be different /sarc
Pilot supply is interesting as it has a few specific traits:
- Acumen- Not everyone is suited to it, nor able to do it.
- Cost- Training costs are simply beyond the reach of many
- Time- It takes an inordinate amount of time to reach ATPL level in terms of hours and experience
- Experience cannot be bought
- Supply is globalized-Myopically viewing a market in isolation (Australia) ignores the globalised supply problem.
I would expect (although tightly controlled by HR) that the regional airlines (as in the USA) and indeed GA are really showing the shortage. Cost of living pressures in major cities and time to command at the 'whim of management' is not an encouraging mix. I have read the Qlink (and JQ NZ turbo prop) forum and suspect it is an indication of a structural shortage.
The JQ model rolled out in Australia is a Ryanair lite model as the IR protection although radically decayed, are not as weak as Ireland. Do not forget these executives all go to the same schools, Irish aviation is tight, your Joyce knows O'Leary and indeed a a cousin of IAG CEO Walsh.
The playbooks are all very similar; adversarial models, squeezing labour unit cost. As Horizon Air spectacularly proved, you can keep lower unit labour cost until you have no revenue. Genius.
O'Leary has big problems, his unit cost may be lower than southwest Airlines, but his revenue and profit will be non existent. The stark difference between the two airlines is not platitudes, it is respect. Southwest Airlines respect the contribution people make, Ryanair, JQ et al deride it and with vigour and ultimately it will hasten the beginning of a new paradigm in employee relations.
Of course Australia may be different /sarc
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Latest: Michael O'Leary's 18-hour figure 'does not seem to have any basis in reality,' says union | BreakingNews.ie
Latest: Michael O'Leary's 18-hour figure 'does not seem to have any basis in reality,' says union
Update - 5.44pm: Ryanair boss Michael O'Leary's claim that short-haul pilots do not suffer fatigue from flying should be investigated over safety concerns, according to a trade union.
Speaking to reporters on the day of the airline's AGM in Dublin, Mr O'Leary dismissed reports that its flight crews were unhappy with their working conditions.
He said: "I would challenge any pilot to explain how this is either a difficult job, or how it is they are overworked or how anybody who by law cannot fly more than 18 hours a week could possibly be suffering from fatigue.
"If there are fatigue issues among pilots ... in short-haul flying it's never as a result of flying."
Brian Strutton, general secretary of UK pilots' union Balpa, said the comments were "wrong" and would lead to safety fears.
He said: "The 18-hour figure that Mr O'Leary has come up with does not seem to have any basis in reality.
"Pilots' flying and duty hours are rightly regulated in order to avoid fatigue. Current EU-level regulations limit pilots' duty hours to 60 per week, and flying hours to 100 in 28 days.
"If Ryanair cared to share their pilots' rosters with us we'd be happy to analyse them for fatigue.
"It is the responsibility of the Irish Aviation Authority to regulate Ryanair.
"I think they should look carefully at these comments by Mr O'Leary and decide whether they could give rise to concerns about the safety culture in that airline."
Mr Strutton described fatigue as "endemic in all kinds of commercial flying".
He said: "To suggest that pilot fatigue in short-haul operations can only occur because of the pilot's activities outside of work is, in our view, wrong.
"Balpa is worried about what message this is giving to pilots and what effect this management attitude has on safety culture.
"Pilots are legally bound to report their fatigue as it can have dangerous effects on pilot performance.
"Ryanair appears to be telling its pilots that if they report, their attitude will be that it's the pilot's own fault.
"This is not a good way to engender an open reporting culture."
Update 2.24pm: Ryanair boss Michael O'Leary has said that some pilots are to be offered a €10,000 annual pay rise on top of a €12,000 bonus payment in a bid to plug staff shortages that have led to weeks of flight disruptions.
Michael O'Leary said pilots due to take a four-week block of holidays in the next two months will be told to reduce that to three weeks.
Mr O'Leary said pilots' pay at some of its largest bases "may be a bit on the low side".
He added that pay rises will be offered in areas where there are recruitment problems such as London Stansted, Dublin, Frankfurt and Berlin.
Mr O'Leary was being grilled by shareholders at Ryanair's AGM in Dublin today about the shelving dozens of flights every day over the next six weeks.
Shareholders also heard that Ryanair will complete training for a further 120 pilots within two weeks, and will recruit 500 new pilots over the next six months.
Mr O'Leary said this was part of normal recruitment and not linked to the current controversy.
Update 12.03pam: Ryanair chief executive Michael O'Leary has today insisted that there is no problem between the airline and its pilots.
He said however that if pilots "misbehave", "there will be no goodies".
Mr O'Leary was speaking following a meeting with shareholders at the airline's AGM in Dublin on Thursday amid the flight cancellation controversy.
During the meeting he said Ryanair is planning to take back one week of their pilots' holidays to prevent any further flight cancellations.
Mr O'Leary said pilots due to take a four-week block of holidays in the next few months because a change in annual leave rotas will be told to reduce that to three weeks.
He said they will get that week back in January.
When asked about reports that pilots are threatening industrial action Mr O'Leary responded: "If you want and need to ask your staff to give up holidays, no work-to-rule can alter that."
He added: "I don't even know how there would be industrial action in Ryanair. There isn't a union."
He also said there have been no demands for new contracts.
Mr O'Leary continued that the airline has "some goodies" to discuss with pilots but warned: "If pilots misbehave that will be the end of the goodies."
He denied that was a threat to pilots against taking industrial action, saying: "I don't think that can be misconstrued as a threat."
Mr O'Leary accused some pilots of being "precious about themselves" and "full of their own self-importance".
"(Piloting a commercial plane) is very highly skilled but I challenge any pilot to explain how it is a difficult job or how they are overworked," he added.
Mr O'Leary insisted that Ryanair's pilots work under "good terms and conditions".
"There isn't a bad relationship between Ryanair and our pilots.
"We asked on Monday for volunteers to work days off ... we have had huge co-operation and support from pilots," he added.
Referring to pilots' pay he said "maybe we have got it a bit on the low side" and said it would be looked at.
Earlier Mr O'Leary was grilled by shareholders about the shelving of up to 50 flights every day over the next six weeks.
"We make mistakes. This time we made a major boo-boo," said Mr O'Leary.
"A very big block of annual leave (for pilots) was over-allocated for September, October and November," he added
Mr O'Leary said that to help ensure no further cancellations after the six-week period, 500 pilots with a four-week block of leave booked for October and 500 in November will have to work one week of that leave.
"We will tell them, 'we will make it up to you'. We will be reasonable.
"We don't need their agreement.
"(Pilots) are not going to participate in work to rule. They want to succeed," he added.
He apologised to the 350,000 people affected by the cancellations.
"I seriously regret these cancellations and upsetting and worrying 80 million of our customers last week.
"We are working hard and long hours to address the passengers disrupted last weekend.
"By the end of this week over 95% of customers will be rebooked or refunded," said Mr O'Leary.
He also told shareholders the six weeks of cancellations has cost the airline around €25m.
Earlier:
Ryanair is planning to take back one week of its pilots' holidays to prevent any further flight cancellations, the airline's chief executive has said.
Michael O'Leary said pilots due to take a four-week block of holidays in the next few months because a change in annual leave rotas will be told to reduce that to three weeks.
He said they will get the other week back in January.
He refused to discuss media reports that many pilots had turned down offers of a €12,000 bonus and instead demanding improved contracts, warning they will “work to rule”.
At a meeting with shareholders at the airline's AGM in Dublin, Mr O'Leary said the airline does not need the agreement of pilots to take back a week of their leave.
He told shareholders six weeks of cancellations, which he previously admitted was a 'mess', has cost the airline about €25m.
Mr O'Leary again apologised for the disruption, which he said was down to mismanagement of the pilots' rostering system.
Update - 5.44pm: Ryanair boss Michael O'Leary's claim that short-haul pilots do not suffer fatigue from flying should be investigated over safety concerns, according to a trade union.
Speaking to reporters on the day of the airline's AGM in Dublin, Mr O'Leary dismissed reports that its flight crews were unhappy with their working conditions.
He said: "I would challenge any pilot to explain how this is either a difficult job, or how it is they are overworked or how anybody who by law cannot fly more than 18 hours a week could possibly be suffering from fatigue.
"If there are fatigue issues among pilots ... in short-haul flying it's never as a result of flying."
Brian Strutton, general secretary of UK pilots' union Balpa, said the comments were "wrong" and would lead to safety fears.
He said: "The 18-hour figure that Mr O'Leary has come up with does not seem to have any basis in reality.
"Pilots' flying and duty hours are rightly regulated in order to avoid fatigue. Current EU-level regulations limit pilots' duty hours to 60 per week, and flying hours to 100 in 28 days.
"If Ryanair cared to share their pilots' rosters with us we'd be happy to analyse them for fatigue.
"It is the responsibility of the Irish Aviation Authority to regulate Ryanair.
"I think they should look carefully at these comments by Mr O'Leary and decide whether they could give rise to concerns about the safety culture in that airline."
Mr Strutton described fatigue as "endemic in all kinds of commercial flying".
He said: "To suggest that pilot fatigue in short-haul operations can only occur because of the pilot's activities outside of work is, in our view, wrong.
"Balpa is worried about what message this is giving to pilots and what effect this management attitude has on safety culture.
"Pilots are legally bound to report their fatigue as it can have dangerous effects on pilot performance.
"Ryanair appears to be telling its pilots that if they report, their attitude will be that it's the pilot's own fault.
"This is not a good way to engender an open reporting culture."
Update 2.24pm: Ryanair boss Michael O'Leary has said that some pilots are to be offered a €10,000 annual pay rise on top of a €12,000 bonus payment in a bid to plug staff shortages that have led to weeks of flight disruptions.
Michael O'Leary said pilots due to take a four-week block of holidays in the next two months will be told to reduce that to three weeks.
Mr O'Leary said pilots' pay at some of its largest bases "may be a bit on the low side".
He added that pay rises will be offered in areas where there are recruitment problems such as London Stansted, Dublin, Frankfurt and Berlin.
Mr O'Leary was being grilled by shareholders at Ryanair's AGM in Dublin today about the shelving dozens of flights every day over the next six weeks.
Shareholders also heard that Ryanair will complete training for a further 120 pilots within two weeks, and will recruit 500 new pilots over the next six months.
Mr O'Leary said this was part of normal recruitment and not linked to the current controversy.
Update 12.03pam: Ryanair chief executive Michael O'Leary has today insisted that there is no problem between the airline and its pilots.
He said however that if pilots "misbehave", "there will be no goodies".
Mr O'Leary was speaking following a meeting with shareholders at the airline's AGM in Dublin on Thursday amid the flight cancellation controversy.
During the meeting he said Ryanair is planning to take back one week of their pilots' holidays to prevent any further flight cancellations.
Mr O'Leary said pilots due to take a four-week block of holidays in the next few months because a change in annual leave rotas will be told to reduce that to three weeks.
He said they will get that week back in January.
When asked about reports that pilots are threatening industrial action Mr O'Leary responded: "If you want and need to ask your staff to give up holidays, no work-to-rule can alter that."
He added: "I don't even know how there would be industrial action in Ryanair. There isn't a union."
He also said there have been no demands for new contracts.
Mr O'Leary continued that the airline has "some goodies" to discuss with pilots but warned: "If pilots misbehave that will be the end of the goodies."
He denied that was a threat to pilots against taking industrial action, saying: "I don't think that can be misconstrued as a threat."
Mr O'Leary accused some pilots of being "precious about themselves" and "full of their own self-importance".
"(Piloting a commercial plane) is very highly skilled but I challenge any pilot to explain how it is a difficult job or how they are overworked," he added.
Mr O'Leary insisted that Ryanair's pilots work under "good terms and conditions".
"There isn't a bad relationship between Ryanair and our pilots.
"We asked on Monday for volunteers to work days off ... we have had huge co-operation and support from pilots," he added.
Referring to pilots' pay he said "maybe we have got it a bit on the low side" and said it would be looked at.
Earlier Mr O'Leary was grilled by shareholders about the shelving of up to 50 flights every day over the next six weeks.
"We make mistakes. This time we made a major boo-boo," said Mr O'Leary.
"A very big block of annual leave (for pilots) was over-allocated for September, October and November," he added
Mr O'Leary said that to help ensure no further cancellations after the six-week period, 500 pilots with a four-week block of leave booked for October and 500 in November will have to work one week of that leave.
"We will tell them, 'we will make it up to you'. We will be reasonable.
"We don't need their agreement.
"(Pilots) are not going to participate in work to rule. They want to succeed," he added.
He apologised to the 350,000 people affected by the cancellations.
"I seriously regret these cancellations and upsetting and worrying 80 million of our customers last week.
"We are working hard and long hours to address the passengers disrupted last weekend.
"By the end of this week over 95% of customers will be rebooked or refunded," said Mr O'Leary.
He also told shareholders the six weeks of cancellations has cost the airline around €25m.
Earlier:
Ryanair is planning to take back one week of its pilots' holidays to prevent any further flight cancellations, the airline's chief executive has said.
Michael O'Leary said pilots due to take a four-week block of holidays in the next few months because a change in annual leave rotas will be told to reduce that to three weeks.
He said they will get the other week back in January.
He refused to discuss media reports that many pilots had turned down offers of a €12,000 bonus and instead demanding improved contracts, warning they will “work to rule”.
At a meeting with shareholders at the airline's AGM in Dublin, Mr O'Leary said the airline does not need the agreement of pilots to take back a week of their leave.
He told shareholders six weeks of cancellations, which he previously admitted was a 'mess', has cost the airline about €25m.
Mr O'Leary again apologised for the disruption, which he said was down to mismanagement of the pilots' rostering system.