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Old 14th Jan 2018, 01:41   #521 (permalink)
 
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From what I've seen this whole pathway (including a seniority number in some cases) from a turbo prop section/subsidiary of an airline group to the mainline or jet fleet has been a total cluster fcuk in most cases.

The guys and girls who have progressed the quickest from the turbo prop fleet through the system onto mainline or jet fleet have been those who have gone outside of the system and left the group altogether and come back to the jet fleet as external applicants. Sad and perverse but true.

Those that show loyalty are the ones that end up being screwed.

Even those with a seniority number at mainline still miss out as they are not being paid the salary their seniority would have granted them at their "new fleet".

While the idea of a progression pathway and or seniority number is a very noble one and gives the sense of being looked after and feeling of security of progression it actually gives an outcome that is the reverse to its intention, especially in this demographic environment.

There is no incentive for airline management to move guys and girls up the ladder when their time comes as it hurts the airlines too much. Perhaps if there were a financial penalty involved they may be more interested. From the airlines perspective it's much better financially, to poach pilots from from outside at the risk of upsetting a few of their own pilots. That way you can transfer your financial pain to someone else.

If there was no defined/agreed pathway then airline management would not have the safety net of knowing they have a group of pilots that have a vesting interest in staying around. Pilots would be more likely to jump ship if they weren't getting a fair deal which in turn would encourage airlines to be somewhat more proactive in looking after the pilots within their group.
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Old 14th Jan 2018, 01:57   #522 (permalink)
 
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I guess what it comes down to is this.

Don’t ever work for a subsidiary or regional arm of the Company which is your ultimate goal.

If your ultimate goal is Virgin, don’t work for VARA or Tiger.

If your ultimate goal is mainline, don’t work for Cobham, QLink on the Dash or Jetstar. People are getting trapped.

Last question... if you can actually afford it or have a backup plan, what about resigning? If you resign - does that remove the restriction so you can go straight into the job you’re “on hold” for? I expect very few people would be in a family or financial position to be able to do that.
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Old 14th Jan 2018, 05:40   #523 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Slippery_Pete View Post
I guess what it comes down to is this.

Don’t ever work for a subsidiary or regional arm of the Company which is your ultimate goal.

If your ultimate goal is Virgin, don’t work for VARA or Tiger.

If your ultimate goal is mainline, don’t work for Cobham, QLink on the Dash or Jetstar. People are getting trapped.

Last question... if you can actually afford it or have a backup plan, what about resigning? If you resign - does that remove the restriction so you can go straight into the job you’re “on hold” for? I expect very few people would be in a family or financial position to be able to do that.

I think you'll find in the future, the ONLY way to mainline will be through the subsidiaries first. The last question - it has been publicly announced if you're an internal on hold, if you resign from the subsidiary, your application is void.
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Old 14th Jan 2018, 05:43   #524 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Slippery_Pete View Post
I

Last question... if you can actually afford it or have a backup plan, what about resigning? If you resign - does that remove the restriction so you can go straight into the job you’re “on hold” for? I expect very few people would be in a family or financial position to be able to do that.
Good question Slippery. At Qlink, the answer to your question was clearly spelt out in a letter from the Qlink chief pilot to those on the mainline hold file. It stated that if you resign from Qlink, your mainline offer will become null and void. Check mate!

As stated above, the fasted pathway to mainline has been to resign from the group first, then apply to mainline.
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Old 14th Jan 2018, 07:14   #525 (permalink)
 
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Good question Slippery. At Qlink, the answer to your question was clearly spelt out in a letter from the Qlink chief pilot to those on the mainline hold file. It stated that if you resign from Qlink, your mainline offer will become null and void. Check mate!

As stated above, the fasted pathway to mainline has been to resign from the group first, then apply to mainline.
Sure that offer will become null and void, but it seems for some at least in the short term it's worthless anyway.

What would happen to someone who had an offer, who then resigned to go elsewhere (for a short time) and then at a later date applied as an external. I bet they'd get an interview like anyone else.
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Old 14th Jan 2018, 12:25   #526 (permalink)


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Qantaslink Dash 8 or Virgin ATR?

If one were to have both offers, what's the best option?
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Old 14th Jan 2018, 21:17   #527 (permalink)
 
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ATR.

You know that worst case scenario you still have career progression but you probably won't need it because QF or Jetstar will snap you up first.
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Old 14th Jan 2018, 22:32   #528 (permalink)
 
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Qantaslink Dash 8 or Virgin ATR?

If one were to have both offers, what's the best option?
If you want to get into Virgin later on then go for Qlink Dash 8. If you want to fly for Qantas Mainline or any other of their jet subsidiaries then go for the ATR gig, such is the nature of the game. Unfortunately, due to not wanting to affect staffing levels at the regional parts of their own business, they are prepared to say goodbye to pilots that leave to go to other operators rather than promote from within and treat their staff with respect.

JLS.
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 03:17   #529 (permalink)
 
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If you want to get into Virgin later on then go for Qlink Dash 8. If you want to fly for Qantas Mainline or any other of their jet subsidiaries then go for the ATR gig, such is the nature of the game. Unfortunately, due to not wanting to affect staffing levels at the regional parts of their own business, they are prepared to say goodbye to pilots that leave to go to other operators rather than promote from within and treat their staff with respect.

JLS.
And there lies the problem folks. For every five pilots that are not retained and manage to leave Qlink or VAA ATR, a couple would be lost forever to overseas operators. Not everyone can return to Aus at a later date due to various circumstances otherwise everybody including myself would do or would have. If the airlines can't see the impedending wreck just over the horizon then gods speed to them.
With the US being so short as well, some airlines that actually forward plan are contempleting taking just about every applicant they can with an ATPL, 3000 hrs, English level 6 and most important the personality and attitude to be trained. Of course this means a significant investment from the employer but what's the alternative going to be moving forward?
In addition some major airlines are investigating options to do something they said they would never do. Yes open new bases all over the world including Aus. You lucky buggers! I wish I was a tad younger. L.B
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 03:58   #530 (permalink)
 
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Interesting point L.B. Whilst the boys and girls at EK will tell you the chances of them opening bases overseas are none and Buckley’s and with good reason, perhaps the hand will be forced in time. Just think of the spin. “Global basing options for a truly global airline.”
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 04:32   #531 (permalink)
 
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I'm not sure how the Seniority list works at Virgin, however one thing to consider is the long term.

Yes, sitting at VARA for 7+ years while new hires go onto the Jets might be a hard pill to swallow... but down the line, once you've finally escaped the Turbo-Props and secured a Jet Job, wouldn't an extra 7 years Seniority ensure a Widebody command that much quicker?

Just an outside observation. The reason Air NZ Link lose so many Pilots externally is because their seniority lists are entirely separate from the Jet Fleets so Pilots lose nothing by leaving. Would be a very different story if we had a group seniority list.
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 05:59   #532 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by ElZilcho View Post
I'm not sure how the Seniority list works at Virgin, however one thing to consider is the long term.

Yes, sitting at VARA for 7+ years while new hires go onto the Jets might be a hard pill to swallow... but down the line, once you've finally escaped the Turbo-Props and secured a Jet Job, wouldn't an extra 7 years Seniority ensure a Widebody command that much quicker?

Just an outside observation. The reason Air NZ Link lose so many Pilots externally is because their seniority lists are entirely separate from the Jet Fleets so Pilots lose nothing by leaving. Would be a very different story if we had a group seniority list.
ElZilcho - I admire your optimism. So it seems seniority works OK unless you're on the ATR where it doesn't.
Let's examine the wide body command scenario if you're on the props.
1. 5-7 years on the ATR
2. 10 + yrs 737 FO
3. 5 + yrs 737 CAPT

That's 20 years as a minimum before you're a skipper on the 330 or 777. Then you've got the earlier retirement age due to the role. Also remember that VAA has only around 10 widebody aircraft in total.
All the best.
L.B
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 06:59   #533 (permalink)
 
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In addition some major airlines are investigating options to do something they said they would never do. Yes open new bases all over the world including Aus. You lucky buggers! I wish I was a tad younger. L.B
Can you give some examples as to who these majors you speak of?
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 07:47   #534 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by "Littlebird" View Post
ElZilcho - I admire your optimism. So it seems seniority works OK unless you're on the ATR where it doesn't.
Let's examine the wide body command scenario if you're on the props.
1. 5-7 years on the ATR
2. 10 + yrs 737 FO
3. 5 + yrs 737 CAPT

That's 20 years as a minimum before you're a skipper on the 330 or 777. Then you've got the earlier retirement age due to the role. Also remember that VAA has only around 10 widebody aircraft in total.
All the best.
L.B
Oh yea, there's no doubt it's a long wait to the LHS of a Jet, but my question was more to do with promotion based on seniority.

In the above scenario, compare 2 Pilots starting on the 737. Pilot A was on the ATR for 5-7 years while Pilot B was an external hire. Does Pilot A have a Seniority number 5-7 years ahead of Pilot B due to their time in VARA, or do they both get similar numbers when joining the Jets?

Honest question as I have no clue how Seniority works at Virgin. If my years as a Link Pilot counted towards my Jet Seniority I never would of left to fly Jets externally and would be 6 years higher up the list. Since that wasn't the case, I had no reservations about leaving the group.
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 08:40   #535 (permalink)
 
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If my years as a Link Pilot counted towards my Jet Seniority I never would of left to fly Jets externally and would be 6 years higher up the list. Since that wasn't the case, I had no reservations about leaving the group.
You're probably better off than you may have been if you were stayed at the Air NZ Link, seniority or no seniority at the Air NZ jet fleet.

While group seniority is a great idea in theory, unless there is a commitment to hire from the Air NZ Link group by the Air NZ jet fleet then the group seniority will be a handcuff with no benefits. I know of quite a few guys who jumped ahead by leaving the Links to go to an outside jet job and very soon after got a Air NZ jet job ahead of guys that had stayed at the links.
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 08:43   #536 (permalink)
 
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Interesting discussion regarding moving from props to jets within a company. I have seen some very good pilots get completely shafted, and quite often they were the training guys who would be more difficult (read expensive) to replace. Management can be quite inventive when finding reasons not to give them the promotion they have earned. As another person posted you are best to vote with your feet. On another note, I see pilot applications for Virgin have closed (unless you want to fokker it in WA). Have they got a full deck of cards again or are they trying to manage the people they have in the system before they continue?
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 09:59   #537 (permalink)
 
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On another note, I see pilot applications for Virgin have closed (unless you want to fokker it in WA). Have they got a full deck of cards again or are they trying to manage the people they have in the system before they continue?
I'd be interested to know their numbers at the moment too. A little birdy told me external 737 AUS recruiting has stopped for the time being (unsure whether this is true or not). Can anyone shed some light on the time frame from ref checks to receiving a call for the hold file or a course date?
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 10:51   #538 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by 27/09 View Post
You're probably better off than you may have been if you were stayed at the Air NZ Link, seniority or no seniority at the Air NZ jet fleet.

While group seniority is a great idea in theory, unless there is a commitment to hire from the Air NZ Link group by the Air NZ jet fleet then the group seniority will be a handcuff with no benefits. I know of quite a few guys who jumped ahead by leaving the Links to go to an outside jet job and very soon after got a Air NZ jet job ahead of guys that had stayed at the links.
In the short term, I agree 100%. It's been a real talking point in recent years with Externals being hired over Link Pilots... many of whom are ex Link Pilots themselves.

However, if my Seniority number on the Jet Fleet reflected my Link join date, I'd be an A320 Captain rather than an FO and I'd probably see a Widebody Command in my late 40's/early 50's. That's the difference between getting a number at 25 early 30's. An extra 6 years in the LHS of a Widebody is a fair chuck of cash.

Honestly, I see the Pro's and Con's of a Joint List. For those joining at the bottom, it's a long wait to get in a Jet while the company tightens the noose. But in 20-30 years time, perhaps it'll pay off? With only a small Widebody Fleet at Virgin, a lot of Pilots will never see the LHS of one.
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 12:41   #539 (permalink)
 
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are folks generally being advised if they are on hold?
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 16:29   #540 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by "Littlebird" View Post
ElZilcho - I admire your optimism. So it seems seniority works OK unless you're on the ATR where it doesn't.
Let's examine the wide body command scenario if you're on the props.
1. 5-7 years on the ATR
2. 10 + yrs 737 FO
3. 5 + yrs 737 CAPT

That's 20 years as a minimum before you're a skipper on the 330 or 777. Then you've got the earlier retirement age due to the role. Also remember that VAA has only around 10 widebody aircraft in total.
All the best.
L.B
What’s the pay difference between a 737 FO and an ATR CA?
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