Qantas Recruitment
And dragging this back to recruitment.....
Suffice to say, if recruited you can expect to be based at any of the longhaul aircraft bases, Perth, Melbourne, Sydney or Brisbane on most likely the A330 or 787 (unless you win the lottery and get a 380 spot).
Regardless of where you choose to live you will be expected to be at your base ready to operate as required under the award. As an S/O and it's a flying duty, that usually means ready to do a walkaround, participate as required pre-flight and be sufficiently rested to jump into a front seat at around 20,000ft on climb for up to 6 or 7 hours - assuming it's a longer sector. Most often though, you'll get the first break and do the latter 6 or 7 hours before top of descent (on 3-pilot sectors). As IsDon says, how you make that work is up to you. Most are making it work, but it only takes a few who wont, to change the current documented 'Commuting Guidelines' into 'Commuting Rules'.
If you don't feel that's for you, you think you can manipulate the system to your advantage or you have other interests that are more important than being fit for duty as required, withdraw your application now as you may still get a gig but your colleagues will soon tire of your attitude.
If you have enough enthusiasm to tackle that, then come on in, the water's great!!
Spoken as a commuter for 29 years.
Suffice to say, if recruited you can expect to be based at any of the longhaul aircraft bases, Perth, Melbourne, Sydney or Brisbane on most likely the A330 or 787 (unless you win the lottery and get a 380 spot).
Regardless of where you choose to live you will be expected to be at your base ready to operate as required under the award. As an S/O and it's a flying duty, that usually means ready to do a walkaround, participate as required pre-flight and be sufficiently rested to jump into a front seat at around 20,000ft on climb for up to 6 or 7 hours - assuming it's a longer sector. Most often though, you'll get the first break and do the latter 6 or 7 hours before top of descent (on 3-pilot sectors). As IsDon says, how you make that work is up to you. Most are making it work, but it only takes a few who wont, to change the current documented 'Commuting Guidelines' into 'Commuting Rules'.
If you don't feel that's for you, you think you can manipulate the system to your advantage or you have other interests that are more important than being fit for duty as required, withdraw your application now as you may still get a gig but your colleagues will soon tire of your attitude.
If you have enough enthusiasm to tackle that, then come on in, the water's great!!
Spoken as a commuter for 29 years.
And dragging this back to recruitment.....
Suffice to say, if recruited you can expect to be based at any of the longhaul aircraft bases, Perth, Melbourne, Sydney or Brisbane on most likely the A330 or 787 (unless you win the lottery and get a 380 spot).
Regardless of where you choose to live you will be expected to be at your base ready to operate as required under the award. As an S/O and it's a flying duty, that usually means ready to do a walkaround, participate as required pre-flight and be sufficiently rested to jump into a front seat at around 20,000ft on climb for up to 6 or 7 hours - assuming it's a longer sector. Most often though, you'll get the first break and do the latter 6 or 7 hours before top of descent (on 3-pilot sectors). As IsDon says, how you make that work is up to you. Most are making it work, but it only takes a few who wont, to change the current documented 'Commuting Guidelines' into 'Commuting Rules'.
If you don't feel that's for you, you think you can manipulate the system to your advantage or you have other interests that are more important than being fit for duty as required, withdraw your application now as you may still get a gig but your colleagues will soon tire of your attitude.
If you have enough enthusiasm to tackle that, then come on in, the water's great!!
Spoken as a commuter for 29 years.
Suffice to say, if recruited you can expect to be based at any of the longhaul aircraft bases, Perth, Melbourne, Sydney or Brisbane on most likely the A330 or 787 (unless you win the lottery and get a 380 spot).
Regardless of where you choose to live you will be expected to be at your base ready to operate as required under the award. As an S/O and it's a flying duty, that usually means ready to do a walkaround, participate as required pre-flight and be sufficiently rested to jump into a front seat at around 20,000ft on climb for up to 6 or 7 hours - assuming it's a longer sector. Most often though, you'll get the first break and do the latter 6 or 7 hours before top of descent (on 3-pilot sectors). As IsDon says, how you make that work is up to you. Most are making it work, but it only takes a few who wont, to change the current documented 'Commuting Guidelines' into 'Commuting Rules'.
If you don't feel that's for you, you think you can manipulate the system to your advantage or you have other interests that are more important than being fit for duty as required, withdraw your application now as you may still get a gig but your colleagues will soon tire of your attitude.
If you have enough enthusiasm to tackle that, then come on in, the water's great!!
Spoken as a commuter for 29 years.
There are a few documents relating to Fatigue including a very generalised 'Commuting Guidelines' document but it adds little to what has been discussed in the last few days here and elsewhere. It essentially provides you with some thoughts that you need to consider and how to best ensure you're fit after commuting to your base for a duty:
Some of the many considerations include:
Where and when am I going to get some sleep?
Do I need to commute to my base the night before, even if it's just for a standby?
Do I have a backup plan if my commuting flight is cancelled, delayed or is suddenly full due to disruptions,
Should I look for a commuter pad with some other pilots or do I have others I can stay with?…..
Qantas do not formally restrict any commuting at your own expense and most commuters are fairly conservative in their approach.
Have I ever missed a duty in 29 years of commuting? No, but I've come close a couple of times when the 'proverbial has hit the fan', but that can happen driving to work too. Qantas are not unreasonable if you've made every reasonable effort to get to work no matter where you are coming from.
Commuting's doable to and from just about anywhere but you need to plan ahead.
Some of the many considerations include:
Where and when am I going to get some sleep?
Do I need to commute to my base the night before, even if it's just for a standby?
Do I have a backup plan if my commuting flight is cancelled, delayed or is suddenly full due to disruptions,
Should I look for a commuter pad with some other pilots or do I have others I can stay with?…..
Qantas do not formally restrict any commuting at your own expense and most commuters are fairly conservative in their approach.
Have I ever missed a duty in 29 years of commuting? No, but I've come close a couple of times when the 'proverbial has hit the fan', but that can happen driving to work too. Qantas are not unreasonable if you've made every reasonable effort to get to work no matter where you are coming from.
Commuting's doable to and from just about anywhere but you need to plan ahead.
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A frame of reference.
I understand you not getting it, you don't have a frame of reference.
Irrespective of the cheapness of the seat in which one sits the 'frame of reference' is provided by two key insights:
- The UK CAA and the British Airways response to fatigue mitigation
- AIPA's documented concerns with respect to new TOD limits and their implications.
With respect to point 1, the UK is also a signatory to ICAO Annex 6. That the provisions relate to a dual responsibility to mitigate fatigue, may perhaps explain, why British Airways have acted. It doesn't look a cookie cutter response, it seems a risk averse and logical position to adopt.
. For this particular sector, which departs early evening, it works best, for me, to spend a night in my own bed. Get up when I wake up, catch the early afternoon flight to Perth, have a couple of hours to iron a shirt and grab a bite to eat, then go to work. I don’t care if I have the first break, or second. It doesn’t matter as I either have first break and doze, or second break and have a solid four hour sleep. I actually find that I’m arriving in London ready to start the day. I don’t even feel like I need to sleep immediately after getting to the hotel.
Thank you to your colleagues for providing a frame of reference. This below is reproduced from AIPA submission regarding changes to CAO 48.1
Sleep Pressure"There is ample scientific evidence going back to the 1990s that recognises that, in the absence of drugs, people do not sleep when there is no biological readiness for sleep. While the SPC suggests that FCMs can plan their sleep pre-flight, that approach is problematic. It is not clear which FCMs CASA suggests should sign-on sufficiently fatigued to be able to sleep immediately after top of climb, even if that compromises their usefulness in the event of an earlier emergency or the Captain’s discretion to operationally determine the allocation of in-flight rest.In any event, the original 2013 Instrument tables reflected that start time was an important factor for all FCMs that could not be offset by the presence of an in-flight rest option. No valid scientific argument has been proposed by either the operators or CASA to abandon CASA’s earlier approach to this issue. "
Further, your association considers the degradation of crew rest 'due commercial imperative' to be a further reason why fatigue cannot be mitigated in-flight, stating;
Quality of in-flight rest
CASA needs to get serious about setting and maintaining standards for crew rest facilities, rather than allowing operators to self-regulate according to their “business needs”. There are plenty of real world examples of sub-standard facilities, some of which are due to inadequate design and many due to inadequate control of the surrounding cabin environment. Importantly, the external environment effects such as airflow noise and turbulence can also prevent the FCM from gaining all of the benefits of in-flight rest.
CASA needs to get serious about setting and maintaining standards for crew rest facilities, rather than allowing operators to self-regulate according to their “business needs”. There are plenty of real world examples of sub-standard facilities, some of which are due to inadequate design and many due to inadequate control of the surrounding cabin environment. Importantly, the external environment effects such as airflow noise and turbulence can also prevent the FCM from gaining all of the benefits of in-flight rest.
As a superior driver, perhaps the sharp bend can be handled at 120km/h. The legislation considers that the best way is to write rules so everybody gets around the bend safely, and thus prescribe a lower speed limit.
People are kidding themselves if they think it is OK to be awake all day, commute across the country, then work on the theory they will get a rest break early in their tour of duty.
They are putting their passengers and their work mates lives at risk!
It is total self indulgence.
They are putting their passengers and their work mates lives at risk!
It is total self indulgence.
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Come on Capt Fathom , have you any experience with commuting prior to ULR ops ?
What would be more fatiguing, be awake all day , commute across the country ( and have a nice nap on the flight over ) ,or , be awake all day , and drive a 2-3 hrs commute plus to sign on ?
Which would be the more fatigue generating pre duty scenario ?
This by all means , is a can of worms in the making , no doubt about it !
How do you legislate for something so variable in its make up ?
There is no one rule fits all in this case !
I am , however , in total agreement with a Legislated minimum standard of crewrest for ULR ops .
My suggestion would be similar to what’s on the Qantas 747’s , toilet and bunk on the flightdeck side of the security door !
What would be more fatiguing, be awake all day , commute across the country ( and have a nice nap on the flight over ) ,or , be awake all day , and drive a 2-3 hrs commute plus to sign on ?
Which would be the more fatigue generating pre duty scenario ?
This by all means , is a can of worms in the making , no doubt about it !
How do you legislate for something so variable in its make up ?
There is no one rule fits all in this case !
I am , however , in total agreement with a Legislated minimum standard of crewrest for ULR ops .
My suggestion would be similar to what’s on the Qantas 747’s , toilet and bunk on the flightdeck side of the security door !
Last edited by blow.n.gasket; 1st Mar 2019 at 10:49.
Oh and an addition commuter guideline.
If you're going to pax from east coast to west and operate, it's probably a good idea to choose a flight that has a better than even chance of you getting a Business class seat.
5 hours in a middle economy seat on a 737 between some (less than hygenic, talkative, aggressive……) people is not particularly conductive to restful relaxation before a long tour of duty.
If you're going to pax from east coast to west and operate, it's probably a good idea to choose a flight that has a better than even chance of you getting a Business class seat.
5 hours in a middle economy seat on a 737 between some (less than hygenic, talkative, aggressive……) people is not particularly conductive to restful relaxation before a long tour of duty.
I think Sydney base will open in April next year and I suspect it will be with another RIN on the 747. The 747 is supposedly doing SCL/JNB/TKY until the end, however there is now talk of a second Perth to Europe service on the 787 so I don’t understand where they are going to find enough airframes to cover the 747 flying. Additionally they think the 380 will go to Haneda but the Japanese have said no, Korean and Asiana have been trying to get it in there for 2 years unsuccessfully. Suffice to say it’s pregnant with possibilities.
People are kidding themselves if they think it is OK to be awake all day, commute across the country, then work on the theory they will get a rest break early in their tour of duty.
They are putting their passengers and their work mates lives at risk!
It is total self indulgence.
They are putting their passengers and their work mates lives at risk!
It is total self indulgence.
What stops a Management Pilot spending the day in the office and operating Sydney to LAX, or Melbourne to LAX? Nothing.
But hey......a pilot gets up late after sleeping in their own bed, jumps on a jet, has a meal, watches a movie, reads a book, has a nap, catches up with a friend/colleague and then operates a ULR flight and suddenly everybody has an expert opinion on how it is wrong and "putting lives at risk."
What stops a pilot from living on a farm, spending the entire day in the fields or doing mechanical work then driving 2-3 hours and doing a ULR flight? Or a pilot living in Newcastle, spending the day in their lawnmower business, then driving 2-3 hours and operating SYD-LAX? Or a pilot living in Lismore running their Macadamia Farm and then driving to BNE to operate to SFO? Or a pilot living in Melbourne spending all day looking after their challenging toddler, while their partner is at work, then operating a flight to LAX or SFO?
Nothing.
I know who is going to turn up to work feeling more rested.
A no paxing rule before a ULR flight is a completely ludicrous and ill-thought idea that has no merit. Why don't you contact CASA and tell them that EVERY pilot should be wearing a sleeping/activity monitoring device which is then checked at sign on, and if the pilot hasn't turned completely rested for any flight then they are stood down - irrespective of whether it's SH, LH or ULR flying? Maybe we should be getting CASA to write into the rules a maximum travelling time of 30 mins by road in order to be deemed fit to fly? No? Don't agree? To hard to achieve in Sydney? Won't that throw the cat amongst the pigeons. How many pilots would be cleared to operate then? The people who are stupidly, with absolutely no experience in the matter, commenting about paxing before a flight need to really consider what they are spruking. The pilot has the responsibility of confirming whether they are fit to fly. Why is that nobody questions the other examples that I have given? We all know that those things have and do occur.
Idealistic twaddle, with zero merit.
The posts regarding management pilots above is incorrect I think you will find , CASA decreed that office time prior to a flight was included in the tour of duty.
For someone with a start date within the next 6 months, could someone give a realistic indicator of promotion and SO salaries? Some people say its impossible to support a family on single income especially being an SO but what about 737 pay? I am interested in Perth base opportunities.
For someone with a start date within the next 6 months, could someone give a realistic indicator of promotion and SO salaries? Some people say its impossible to support a family on single income especially being an SO but what about 737 pay? I am interested in Perth base opportunities.
OK...I’ll flog the dead horse to save your lazy ass from looking thru the thread. Promotion has been very quick but there will be loads of people in front of you in 6 months. Wanting Perth will help your cause but no guarantee...see above.
737 will see you on 180k which is far more than 787 SO.
To make you feel better, the next training year vacancies are less than a month away from being advertised. So we will all get to see the huge movement in and out of the 737 ... once more.
Tough decisions I know. I’m sure you’ll find a way like everyone else. It would be a shame to make decisions based on short term fuzzies. (Imagine picture of concrete and cup)
Last edited by crosscutter; 20th Mar 2019 at 05:59.
There was a time when no one cared that much about what the salaries were going to be. If you wanted a particular job, you applied! That must indicate there are plenty of choices out there now?
Crosscutter, thank you for your feedback. I have read this thread in its entirety and I was just gathering info on current, as in 2019 promotion opportunities. Tough decision has been made hence why I applied, I need to be a bit realistic as I will be taking a huge paycut to be back in Oz. So, ground schools forecast every month I presume? Maybe ill be better off getting on the earliest one ASAP.
In a month we will all know how substantial the next FY training will be.
I would imagine a person relocating, with a young family, on a single income 787 SO wage to be a challenge. I mean that.
The demographic at Qantas means that even if the music stops (and it always does) movement should still occur which should be some relief. If you were an involuntary SO for more than a couple of years I’d be very surprised.
As for the 787 SO wage including allowances...I’m not sure exactly but I suspect around 125k first year? Someone will pipe up if I’m off the mark.
Good luck.
I would imagine a person relocating, with a young family, on a single income 787 SO wage to be a challenge. I mean that.
The demographic at Qantas means that even if the music stops (and it always does) movement should still occur which should be some relief. If you were an involuntary SO for more than a couple of years I’d be very surprised.
As for the 787 SO wage including allowances...I’m not sure exactly but I suspect around 125k first year? Someone will pipe up if I’m off the mark.
Good luck.