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Qantas Recruitment

Old 23rd Feb 2019, 05:17
  #2141 (permalink)  
 
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Getting a little more back on topic. According to the Qantas there are currently 151 pilots on the hold file, not counting those assigned to the next four courses up to end of April (about 50). Also 134 pilots currently being processed after assessment days.
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Old 23rd Feb 2019, 07:26
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Originally Posted by Rated De
It would be a brave person to stand before a judge and say that commuting across a continent before a long TOD meets the rest requirements.

In the UK, British Airways have banned the use of staff travel on day of operation. Naturally, there are numerous ways around this, however the UK CAA is now looking through not only staff travel but commute times more broadly. The intent is to investigate whether sign on times and rest periods are adequate given, among other things housing costs pushing people further away from the base. Suffice to say the onus presently remains is on the pilot. that BA have acted the way they have may give an insight to the way this responsibility will be handled in the future; joint liability.
Rest assured being fit for duty will be heavily scrutinised in the years to come. It would be an extremely precarious position to explain to His Honour that flying across a continent and then operating a night TOD around 20 hours had as little impact on the performance of one's duties as a short 30 minute drive to sign on.
Sorry RD but you have absolutely no idea what you’re on about. Don’t know if you’ve ever been a long haul pilot, as you seem to keep your cards close to your chest, but this, to me, seems a lot like someone heckling from the cheap seats.

I actually fly this PER-LHR sector. I’ve tried lots of different options including coming over the day before. For this particular sector, which departs early evening, it works best, for me, to spend a night in my own bed. Get up when I wake up, catch the early afternoon flight to Perth, have a couple of hours to iron a shirt and grab a bite to eat, then go to work. I don’t care if I have the first break, or second. It doesn’t matter as I either have first break and doze, or second break and have a solid four hour sleep. I actually find that I’m arriving in London ready to start the day. I don’t even feel like I need to sleep immediately after getting to the hotel.

What seems to escape some people is that this aircraft flies for 18 hours before arriving in London. You should plan to rest on board. Get a solid four hours sleep in the crew rest and I feel I’m arriving in London relatively fresh. The mindset here is that people should be as fresh as they would be when your average office worker arrives at there desk at 9am after 9 hours sleep in their own bed. This is not possible when your flying back of the clock. What office worker spends 18 solid hours at their desk without sleep? If they do then they’d be in absolutely no state to drive home, let alone land an aeroplane. Add to that a back of the clock roster and it’s imperative that you plan a sleep on board. The best way to achieve that is to plan to sleep, as best you can, when your body clock wants you to sleep. That means being ready to sleep 4-8 hours into this 18 hour sector. By flying over on the day of the flight I find I can achieve this. Fly over on the day before and I can’t. I’d be more than happy explaining this to “His Honour”.

Some airlines, Emirates is one, have an operating crew and a relief crew. The relief crew are actually encouraged to turn up tired. They are expected to take the first break so it would be pointless turning up fresh as a daisy and not be able to sleep. Qantas has Second Officers so this won’t work. So some latitude must be allowed to achieve your own balance.

I guess the takeout from this is that crew rest is individual. What works for some, might not work for others. By taking BAs cookie cutter approach by banning staff travel on the day of operating would actually make matters a lot more stressful for everyone, especially those who find paxing on the day works best for them. The best way is undoubtedly what Qantas presently does. Leave it up to the individual to make up their own mind on what works best for them. Unfortunately, rules will probably be forced upon us because desk bound self appointed experts think they know better.
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Old 23rd Feb 2019, 08:40
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I can see this being a repeat of 2007//2008 for us on the hold ��
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Old 23rd Feb 2019, 09:08
  #2144 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by High_To_Low
I can see this being a repeat of 2007//2008 for us on the hold ��
I highly doubt it.

The next 6 x 787's are replacements for the 747 so not really any expansion there. The 'project sunrise' aircraft will be expansion.

More 787 orders which I see happening will mean on-going recruitment for years to come. Management appear very happy with just how well they are doing. They still have another 30 purchase rights.

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Old 23rd Feb 2019, 09:22
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Seems to be a huge hold file they are creating nonetheless with numerous holdfilers destined to spend 12+ months waiting which begs the question....why have so many if there’s only say 15/month with courses only ‘confirmed’ up until May
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Old 24th Feb 2019, 00:33
  #2146 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by High_To_Low
Seems to be a huge hold file they are creating nonetheless with numerous holdfilers destined to spend 12+ months waiting which begs the question....why have so many if there’s only say 15/month with courses only ‘confirmed’ up until May
I guess because things can change very rapidly.

It's not convenient for those on hold, but the company does need to be in a position to move quickly if the need arises. Compounding the issue will be the next years internal training requirements which are every bit as likely to be as demanding as last years, or thereabouts....

You can't do much more than put yourself in a position to to be available when required, sucks I know. I was on hold for 24 months 13 years ago and out of the blue got the call.

Hang in there.
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Old 24th Feb 2019, 04:57
  #2147 (permalink)  
 
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How long does the recruitment process take?
Due to the high number of applications received, processing times may vary. Face to face assessments are likely to commence in May 2018. Face to face assessment through to the final decision usually takes between 4 and 6 weeks.
If I resign from my current entity will this accelerate the process for me applicaiton?
If you resign from your current entity during any stage of the recruitment process your application will be withdrawn.
The above excerpts are from the FAQ document that accompanied the last internal EOIs which were in March 2018.

People from that application window that diligently prepared CVs and cover letters, that traveled(usually the day before) at their own expense to Sydney on two occasions for both the interviews and simulator assessments racking up probably close to $1000 on airfares and accommodation.
Then there was the whole suite of medical examinations required to be done at 'qantas approved' examiners costing anywhere from $500 to $1000. Mind boggling when you're already a group pilot, you are already on file at qantas medicals yet they want you to do one again?

So there you have ~$2000 of incurred expenses and 7 days out of your life gone just to apply for a position.

After all that, 11 months later there are still candidates awaiting information from 'TALENT ACQUISITION' whether or not they have been put on 'active hold', the term itself being quite the fabulous oxymoron.

It's really despicable what that department is doing. This all could easily be seen as retention inducing dangling carrot.

I get it, few positions, plenty of people wanting to work there. Do the right thing and at least narrow down the application criteria so you don't waste peoples time and money. Or maybe even move towards looking at a certain thing called MERIT. M-E-R-I-T.
Of some of the people that have received negative outcomes its unbelievable how many of them are good LHS operators.

Lies and deceit. Thats the spirit of australia apparently. That department needs a proper overhaul.
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Old 24th Feb 2019, 20:37
  #2148 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by spektrum
Or maybe even move towards looking at a certain thing called MERIT. M-E-R-I-T.
Of some of the people that have received negative outcomes its unbelievable how many of them are good LHS operators.

Lies and deceit. Thats the spirit of australia apparently. That department needs a proper overhaul.
i’m guessing all the internal “no’s” were white males?
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Old 25th Feb 2019, 00:30
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Throw in another $1000++ for online/interview/sim prep, because knowing your stuff just isn’t important these days, you really need to know how to manage some angry customers at a restaurant though.
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Old 25th Feb 2019, 04:57
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Jeez spektrum you have a wild view on this process.

People from that application window that diligently prepared CVs and cover letters, that traveled(usually the day before) at their own expense to Sydney on two occasions for both the interviews and simulator assessments racking up probably close to $1000 on airfares and accommodation.
Do you think it's unusual for employers require candidates to travel to sit interviews/assessments? Because it's pretty normal in any other industry. Of course it's nice when an employer is doing well enough to offer to pay for those expenses. But do you seriously think Qantas are going to CHOOSE to pay for candidate's transport when they are well aware of the extent people are willing to go to for success in this process? And why are they so willing? Because the job is worth it on the other side of the assessment process. I mean come on. This isn't a poor business decision. It's just not to your liking.

Internal applicants were rostered paid days off in order to attend their assessments. A luxury that did not have to be afforded to any of them but it's still an advantage that many externals would have appreciated from their respective employers because this is usually a serious hurdle to overcome for pilots attending interviews from other airlines.

Then there was the whole suite of medical examinations required to be done at 'qantas approved' examiners costing anywhere from $500 to $1000. Mind boggling when you're already a group pilot, you are already on file at qantas medicals yet they want you to do one again?
I agree with this. I cannot find logic in their demands for a medical if you already hold a CASA class 1. However, liability is a complicated thing and may governed this process but I am not sure.

Or maybe even move towards looking at a certain thing called MERIT. M-E-R-I-T.
And I suppose you would qualify? Of course. Because 95% of pilots think they perform above average. The people who throw around "merit" are likely the ones who think they deserve for Qantas to pay for their transport and accomodation because they are so fortunate to have those people applying to work there. Since you were happy to spell the word out for us, why don't you suggest a way to measure "merit" across the entire group in a way that everyone finds fair? Sounds easy enough to figure out the way you write about this stuff.

I get it, few positions, plenty of people wanting to work there.
I don't think you do get it.

It's really despicable what that department is doing.
Lies and deceit. Thats the spirit of australia apparently.
Now come on. When were you lied to and deceived? You're poisoning the well here and does nothing for your argument other than appeal to your spite.
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Old 25th Feb 2019, 08:37
  #2151 (permalink)  
 
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I probably should have made it clear that I don't see an issue with funding your own travel costs when applying for a job. The crux of the matter is the fact that they expect one to jump through a plethora of hurdles, spending not negligible amounts of money and the department still can't give you a verdict on the outcome of your application 11 months later.
Do you personally think that is reasonable Friednick? What is your current position if I may ask?
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Old 25th Feb 2019, 11:28
  #2152 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by spektrum
Or maybe even move towards looking at a certain thing called MERIT. M-E-R-I-T.
How did the process not measure 'merit' ?

They looked at your experience via your CV. The looked at your motivation in your cover letter. They looked at your psychometric ability with 2 rounds of testing. They looked at your decision making model and attitude via the behavioral interview. They looked at your flying ability in the sim. They looked at your reputation via your references.

What did they miss? Did they forget to ask if you can juggle?

Airline interviews have always been a ****show, how this is a surprise to anyone is a surprise to me.
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 11:22
  #2153 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by IsDon01


Sorry RD but you have absolutely no idea what you’re on about. Don’t know if you’ve ever been a long haul pilot, as you seem to keep your cards close to your chest, but this, to me, seems a lot like someone heckling from the cheap seats.

I actually fly this PER-LHR sector. I’ve tried lots of different options including coming over the day before. For this particular sector, which departs early evening, it works best, for me, to spend a night in my own bed. Get up when I wake up, catch the early afternoon flight to Perth, have a couple of hours to iron a shirt and grab a bite to eat, then go to work. I don’t care if I have the first break, or second. It doesn’t matter as I either have first break and doze, or second break and have a solid four hour sleep. I actually find that I’m arriving in London ready to start the day. I don’t even feel like I need to sleep immediately after getting to the hotel.

What seems to escape some people is that this aircraft flies for 18 hours before arriving in London. You should plan to rest on board. Get a solid four hours sleep in the crew rest and I feel I’m arriving in London relatively fresh. The mindset here is that people should be as fresh as they would be when your average office worker arrives at there desk at 9am after 9 hours sleep in their own bed. This is not possible when your flying back of the clock. What office worker spends 18 solid hours at their desk without sleep? If they do then they’d be in absolutely no state to drive home, let alone land an aeroplane. Add to that a back of the clock roster and it’s imperative that you plan a sleep on board. The best way to achieve that is to plan to sleep, as best you can, when your body clock wants you to sleep. That means being ready to sleep 4-8 hours into this 18 hour sector. By flying over on the day of the flight I find I can achieve this. Fly over on the day before and I can’t. I’d be more than happy explaining this to “His Honour”.

Some airlines, Emirates is one, have an operating crew and a relief crew. The relief crew are actually encouraged to turn up tired. They are expected to take the first break so it would be pointless turning up fresh as a daisy and not be able to sleep. Qantas has Second Officers so this won’t work. So some latitude must be allowed to achieve your own balance.

I guess the takeout from this is that crew rest is individual. What works for some, might not work for others. By taking BAs cookie cutter approach by banning staff travel on the day of operating would actually make matters a lot more stressful for everyone, especially those who find paxing on the day works best for them. The best way is undoubtedly what Qantas presently does. Leave it up to the individual to make up their own mind on what works best for them. Unfortunately, rules will probably be forced upon us because desk bound self appointed experts think they know better.
Out of curiosity, how do the rest periods run on board? One at a time, SO/CPT at the same time ect
Is it a single 4 hour block?
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 15:50
  #2154 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fujiroll76


Out of curiosity, how do the rest periods run on board? One at a time, SO/CPT at the same time ect
Is it a single 4 hour block?
The only requirement is that either Capt or F/O must be on duty with one of the S/Os. Essentially that means the two S/Os sort out between them who’s on duty and who’s resting and the Capt and F/O do the same.

Usually you you get two breaks each. A short and a long. Depending on the sector and whether your body is ready to sleep the first break could either be the short or the long. It’s flexible. Some guys prefer to say just let me sleep for a maximum of five hours. If I can’t sleep I’ll be back after 3. If the guy on duty feels tired then he just calls his mate back earlier.

Usually on the PER-LHR each of you will get a total of 8 hours in the bunk. Manage it well and your quite ok at the other end.
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 20:34
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Originally Posted by IsDon01


The only requirement is that either Capt or F/O must be on duty with one of the S/Os. Essentially that means the two S/Os sort out between them who’s on duty and who’s resting and the Capt and F/O do the same.

Usually you you get two breaks each. A short and a long. Depending on the sector and whether your body is ready to sleep the first break could either be the short or the long. It’s flexible. Some guys prefer to say just let me sleep for a maximum of five hours. If I can’t sleep I’ll be back after 3. If the guy on duty feels tired then he just calls his mate back earlier.

Usually on the PER-LHR each of you will get a total of 8 hours in the bunk. Manage it well and your quite ok at the other end.
Thanks Don. Great insight into the long haul life
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 22:14
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Originally Posted by IsDon01


Sorry RD but you have absolutely no idea what you’re on about. Don’t know if you’ve ever been a long haul pilot, as you seem to keep your cards close to your chest, but this, to me, seems a lot like someone heckling from the cheap seats.

I actually fly this PER-LHR sector. I’ve tried lots of different options including coming over the day before. For this particular sector, which departs early evening, it works best, for me, to spend a night in my own bed. Get up when I wake up, catch the early afternoon flight to Perth, have a couple of hours to iron a shirt and grab a bite to eat, then go to work. I don’t care if I have the first break, or second. It doesn’t matter as I either have first break and doze, or second break and have a solid four hour sleep. I actually find that I’m arriving in London ready to start the day. I don’t even feel like I need to sleep immediately after getting to the hotel.

What seems to escape some people is that this aircraft flies for 18 hours before arriving in London. You should plan to rest on board. Get a solid four hours sleep in the crew rest and I feel I’m arriving in London relatively fresh. The mindset here is that people should be as fresh as they would be when your average office worker arrives at there desk at 9am after 9 hours sleep in their own bed. This is not possible when your flying back of the clock. What office worker spends 18 solid hours at their desk without sleep? If they do then they’d be in absolutely no state to drive home, let alone land an aeroplane. Add to that a back of the clock roster and it’s imperative that you plan a sleep on board. The best way to achieve that is to plan to sleep, as best you can, when your body clock wants you to sleep. That means being ready to sleep 4-8 hours into this 18 hour sector. By flying over on the day of the flight I find I can achieve this. Fly over on the day before and I can’t. I’d be more than happy explaining this to “His Honour”.

Some airlines, Emirates is one, have an operating crew and a relief crew. The relief crew are actually encouraged to turn up tired. They are expected to take the first break so it would be pointless turning up fresh as a daisy and not be able to sleep. Qantas has Second Officers so this won’t work. So some latitude must be allowed to achieve your own balance.

I guess the takeout from this is that crew rest is individual. What works for some, might not work for others. By taking BAs cookie cutter approach by banning staff travel on the day of operating would actually make matters a lot more stressful for everyone, especially those who find paxing on the day works best for them. The best way is undoubtedly what Qantas presently does. Leave it up to the individual to make up their own mind on what works best for them. Unfortunately, rules will probably be forced upon us because desk bound self appointed experts think they know better.
Whether it suits your company or not is immaterial. That it works for you is great, however leaving aside the practicality have you considered how the court would view it?

British Airways are not banning leisure travel on the day of operation to be petty. They have likely acted in response to the perceived shared legal responsibility for adequate rest before flight. In other words they probably recognise the potential for liability in the event of an accident and the court deciding a pilot involved was consented to commute on day of operations.
Perhaps the distinction is a little nuanced, however what may work for you personally, and appear to have the tacit approval of the company, may be a risky position to adopt in the event that there is a serious operational incident.
Asking your employer for their consent, in writing, to position of day of operations prior to an arduous tour of duty may not elicit a favourable response.
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 22:55
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Originally Posted by Rated De
Whether it suits your company or not is immaterial. That it works for you is great, however leaving aside the practicality have you considered how the court would view it?

British Airways are not banning leisure travel on the day of operation to be petty. They have likely acted in response to the perceived shared legal responsibility for adequate rest before flight. In other words they probably recognise the potential for liability in the event of an accident and the court deciding a pilot involved was consented to commute on day of operations.
Perhaps the distinction is a little nuanced, however what may work for you personally, and appear to have the tacit approval of the company, may be a risky position to adopt in the event that there is a serious operational incident.
Asking your employer for their consent, in writing, to position of day of operations prior to an arduous tour of duty may not elicit a favourable response.
As already stated, I am more than happy to justify my position to the judge.

Despite your concerns, I don’t believe Qantas would have any issues either. They recognise the irrefutable fact that fatigue is a very personal thing. What works for one person, doesn’t work for someone else. To stringently legislate a set of protocols to cover commuting would actually adversely affect those, like me, who find the paxing on the day option results in less fatigue on arrival in London. By legislating a tight set of protocols as BA have done may actually open them up to liability rather than protect them from it. You can’t legislate out fatigue. A pilot in an incident could say that he was forced to operate in a method dictated by BAs restrictions which was sub optimal for him personally. Accordingly, your honour, I was actually more fatigued due to BAs restrictions than I would be if given the latitude to commute when it suited me.

The Colgan Air accident highlighted the fatigue issues relating to commuting before operating and is often trotted out to justify the position of the armchair critics such as yourself. There is a world of difference between commuting across the country and then operating a 2 pilot 4 sector domestic day, and paxing to operate a 4 pilot single sector day with 8 hours rest in the bunk en route. A 2 pilot 4 sector domestic day is tiring even without commuting. I would never consider paxing across the country immediately prior to operating this duty day. A single sector 4 pilot duty is totally different, and requires a different approach.

i understand you not getting it RD as you don’t have a frame of reference.
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Old 27th Feb 2019, 01:18
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Asking your employer for their consent, in writing, to position of day of operations prior to an arduous tour of duty may not elicit a favourable response.
Apparently this is the process for the Air NZ boys and girls who commute. Apparently he current mood is to approve commuting although the company have flip flopped on thier view of this over time.
I think part of the reluctance to allow it was a fear of the regulator pushing for greater recognition of commute times which never really eventuated, and instead the reality that a commuter flying in from the regions would have a shorter journey to work than someone driving through rush hour traffic cause the company to relent?
Either way, it is ultimately the pilots responsibility to arrive fit for duty, and you can be sure the company will do thier best to hang you out if there is ever to be a perceived liability on thier part.
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Old 28th Feb 2019, 00:10
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i understand you not getting it RD as you don’t have a frame of reference.
Can you share with the rest of us what you know of RD's experience and qualifications that enable you to make such a statement?

Last edited by Lezzeno; 28th Feb 2019 at 00:31. Reason: Naming
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Old 28th Feb 2019, 02:19
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Originally Posted by Lezzeno
Can you share with the rest of us what you know of RD's experience and qualifications that enable you to make such a statement?
Maybe RD is best placed to answer that one.
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