Qantas Recruitment
Join Date: Jul 2004
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KEG, what we have is a difference of opinion based on our differing viewpoints and differing “data sets” that we each have.
Where it gets silly is that all I did originally was to put up my opinion, instead of starting with “Sorry, that’s complete and utter crap...” Who would have guessed that I’d come back here and defend myself?
“Ill informed... inaccurate information” How so?
Was my then CP lying when he stated that only 51% of Dash pilots were successful? Was my own experience when speaking with pilots regarding the success rate of pilots into Cathay and Emirates ill informed? Did the 1/3 of the 2008/9 Cadets who failed their re-assessment into mainline not happen? Are there not pilots at Qantaslink who successfully passed their mainline interviews two years ago still waiting for their December start date?
I’m reasonably certain that you’re flying with ex-link drivers who can confirm all that I’ve said.
Nothing in your claim that the turboprop guys are over-represented (and I notice you still include other internals) invalidates anything I’ve stated.You may care to note that nowhere have I said that YOUR information is “ill informed or inaccurate” apart from wanting you to separate Qlink from the other internals. You may also care to note that I’m not disputing what you’ve said.
It just doesn’t change my opinion.
The reason it doesn’t change my opinion is that if Qantaslink management had their way there would be ZERO turboprop guys getting mainline gigs. The only reason that the pathway has opened is to try to prevent the outpouring of pilots to other carriers. The amount of guys getting in is kept low enough to encourage people to stay, but minimising as much as possible the impact on the turboprop operation.
As for calling you a Skygod, if you write stuff like
you can expect some incoming. If you can’t take crap, don’t dish it out. (Love the “skygodwin law” btw).
Once again, many of those TP drivers who fell under the category of “lets not pretend...” are now Captains at Virgin and Dragonair, and in two years some will be widebody captains for Emirates.
So if you’ve got any real arguments, instead of telling me that I’m wrong and abuse such as “NFI, or chips on shoulders”, please come back with them.
Otherwise, you’re just being boring.
Where it gets silly is that all I did originally was to put up my opinion, instead of starting with “Sorry, that’s complete and utter crap...” Who would have guessed that I’d come back here and defend myself?
“Ill informed... inaccurate information” How so?
Was my then CP lying when he stated that only 51% of Dash pilots were successful? Was my own experience when speaking with pilots regarding the success rate of pilots into Cathay and Emirates ill informed? Did the 1/3 of the 2008/9 Cadets who failed their re-assessment into mainline not happen? Are there not pilots at Qantaslink who successfully passed their mainline interviews two years ago still waiting for their December start date?
I’m reasonably certain that you’re flying with ex-link drivers who can confirm all that I’ve said.
Nothing in your claim that the turboprop guys are over-represented (and I notice you still include other internals) invalidates anything I’ve stated.You may care to note that nowhere have I said that YOUR information is “ill informed or inaccurate” apart from wanting you to separate Qlink from the other internals. You may also care to note that I’m not disputing what you’ve said.
It just doesn’t change my opinion.
The reason it doesn’t change my opinion is that if Qantaslink management had their way there would be ZERO turboprop guys getting mainline gigs. The only reason that the pathway has opened is to try to prevent the outpouring of pilots to other carriers. The amount of guys getting in is kept low enough to encourage people to stay, but minimising as much as possible the impact on the turboprop operation.
As for calling you a Skygod, if you write stuff like
So let’s not pretend that being a QLink Driver makes you a successful mainline pilot either.
Once again, many of those TP drivers who fell under the category of “lets not pretend...” are now Captains at Virgin and Dragonair, and in two years some will be widebody captains for Emirates.
So if you’ve got any real arguments, instead of telling me that I’m wrong and abuse such as “NFI, or chips on shoulders”, please come back with them.
Otherwise, you’re just being boring.
Last edited by Sykes; 17th Jun 2018 at 03:54. Reason: Formatting
Keg does his best on here to give you an informed opinion.
You can listen to it. Or not. I’m sure he’s not going to lose sleep over it. Skygodwins law is a laugh though.
As for Qlink to QF. Yes there’s a few waiting a while. I know of a couple too. It sucks when you’re waiting. However that’s life. QF are running a business. They need the fleet in all devisions flying.
If you don’t like it. Vote with your feet. If enough do. Perhaps the system will change. Perhaps it won’t.
After you hit 40, life goes on. Its all the same. Kids. Mortgage. Wife. Husband. Bills. More bills. Sims. Flying pays for your life and being present with the family, which is more important than SJS with a brand on the tail.
You can listen to it. Or not. I’m sure he’s not going to lose sleep over it. Skygodwins law is a laugh though.
As for Qlink to QF. Yes there’s a few waiting a while. I know of a couple too. It sucks when you’re waiting. However that’s life. QF are running a business. They need the fleet in all devisions flying.
If you don’t like it. Vote with your feet. If enough do. Perhaps the system will change. Perhaps it won’t.
After you hit 40, life goes on. Its all the same. Kids. Mortgage. Wife. Husband. Bills. More bills. Sims. Flying pays for your life and being present with the family, which is more important than SJS with a brand on the tail.
As for calling you a Skygod, if you write stuff like
Quote:
So let’s not pretend that being a QLink Driver makes you a successful mainline pilot either.
you can expect some incoming.
Quote:
So let’s not pretend that being a QLink Driver makes you a successful mainline pilot either.
you can expect some incoming.
Nunc est bibendum
Nothing in your claim that the turboprop guys are over-represented (and I notice you still include other internals) invalidates anything I’ve stated.
Does se this mean all within the group will get in? No. Some will deal themselves out of contention by how they perform at either psych/ skills, or at assessment centre. Does this mean if successful that they will get in straight away? No. Many have had to wait some months to get in. The longest I’ve heard was 15 months from when they were advised they were successful to their projected start date. A total of some two years from initial application.
Now you choose to interpret these things as a ‘bias’ against QLink. I see it as the most positive thing for QLink pilots since Qantas started recruiting again after an 8 year hiatus. Many of us older generation certainly remember the days when we took virtually no one from internal subsidiaries and the most likely move for a QLink driver to make was to become an F/O was with Ansett (prior to 2001) and VOZ (post 2001).
Was the QLink CP right about his numbers? I’ve no idea. I presume so and I’ll take you at your word on those numbers. Having been a part of the process assessing the ex cadets and LOI holders I can guarantee there was no bias, direction or other riding instructions against QLink pilots. Were all the recruiting decisions made over the last couple of years correct? Gosh no. We probably said ‘no’ to some who would be great and I know for sure we’ve said ‘yes’ to a few who have demonstrated oh so clearly that we got it very wrong. That still doesn’t demonstrate bias.
So for the avoidance of doubt, I’ll make it clear again. If you’re a low time GA pilot (say less than 2000 hrs) my opinion is that you’re a bigger chance of getting into Qantas in a few years if you go via QLink than if you hold out to be a DE 3500 hour pilot.
One more point. When I’ve sat across from an applicant I want them to do well- same with virtually all of the other recruiters. I watch the body language. I see the sweaty palms, the dry mouths, the stumbling over words, the internal chaos that comes at various times during an assessment centre. My heart breaks if someone is struggling- though less so if I’m watching someone arrogantly dig their own grave... and some certainly do. The individual pilot fronting up for interview is the greatest determinate of whether or not they’ll get through. Not what airline they think mainline may be biased against.
Nunc est bibendum
Sykes, I think you might be being oversensitive about that particular remark and not taking the way it was intended. The fact is that we’ve occasionally seen that being a short haul driver doesn’t necessarily make you a successful long haul pilot, and being a long haul pilot doesn’t guarantee you’ll be a successful short haul pilot. Likewise, being a mainline pilot doesn’t guarantee you’ll be a successful QLink driver - and Keg actually said as much, if you read what he wrote. Taken in that context, playing the Skygod card is something of an overreaction, don’t you think?
Honestly sometimes things don’t work out for a reason.
Qantas isn’t everything. Different airlines look for different things. Sykes you appear pretty “ head strong”. Perhaps Qantas identified you’d be a great Captain but not suited to a 15 year stint as a So/Fo.
Chase those airlines that provide a short time to Command.
As a Qantas employee, trust me the system isn’t perfect. We all know of the ones who got in who make a name for themselves. But on Balance 95% of the guys and Girls are great people to work with.
i don’t doubt that a amazing number of people fall by the way side. There are a limited number of positions. Qantas/ media talk up a lax, of pilots but the reality is I think 250 at most in 18 months after 8 yers of nothing. And yes there is a shortage much worse in the Dash 8 ranks. But they aren’t going to pilfer themselves!
Keg I would ask, Does anyone oversee the process after pilots loose involvement? At what point does HR get a final decision?
i think everyone would love a group seniority list
take care everyone. Tomorrow’s a better day and there are a lot of airlines who want their own personalities.
the grass isn’t always greener somewhere else, but it does grow in lots of places
Qantas isn’t everything. Different airlines look for different things. Sykes you appear pretty “ head strong”. Perhaps Qantas identified you’d be a great Captain but not suited to a 15 year stint as a So/Fo.
Chase those airlines that provide a short time to Command.
As a Qantas employee, trust me the system isn’t perfect. We all know of the ones who got in who make a name for themselves. But on Balance 95% of the guys and Girls are great people to work with.
i don’t doubt that a amazing number of people fall by the way side. There are a limited number of positions. Qantas/ media talk up a lax, of pilots but the reality is I think 250 at most in 18 months after 8 yers of nothing. And yes there is a shortage much worse in the Dash 8 ranks. But they aren’t going to pilfer themselves!
Keg I would ask, Does anyone oversee the process after pilots loose involvement? At what point does HR get a final decision?
i think everyone would love a group seniority list
take care everyone. Tomorrow’s a better day and there are a lot of airlines who want their own personalities.
the grass isn’t always greener somewhere else, but it does grow in lots of places
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Does anyone oversee the process after pilots loose(sic) involvement? At what point does HR get a final decision?
At a particular airline of our experience so entrenched was HR, that flight operations was given a recommended list.The assessment in a simulator a binary outcome. Effectively what was a technical job was reduced and controlled by administration. That was literally all, the process had been captured.
The airline in this example realised a substantial problem with new pilots; issues of training and conversion came to light. It took time but eventually some hardy souls dared to challenge the recruitment templates. What was found was really insightful. HR had looked for mirrors of themselves; those well versed in corporate process, an eye for administrative detail and importantly a willingness to acquiesce. Such traits were not what the airline concerned thought was in the best interests of flight safety.
Removing HR from the process was costly and designing the replacement model found them back where they started before the dark art got control.
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The problem for many airlines is that HR is wedged into every conversation, everything that generates 'performance management' is a work input for them. Generating 'work' is self fulfilling: Control the process and your department survives.
At a particular airline of our experience so entrenched was HR, that flight operations was given a recommended list.The assessment in a simulator a binary outcome. Effectively what was a technical job was reduced and controlled by administration. That was literally all, the process had been captured.
The airline in this example realised a substantial problem with new pilots; issues of training and conversion came to light. It took time but eventually some hardy souls dared to challenge the recruitment templates. What was found was really insightful. HR had looked for mirrors of themselves; those well versed in corporate process, an eye for administrative detail and importantly a willingness to acquiesce. Such traits were not what the airline concerned thought was in the best interests of flight safety.
Removing HR from the process was costly and designing the replacement model found them back where they started before the dark art got control.
At a particular airline of our experience so entrenched was HR, that flight operations was given a recommended list.The assessment in a simulator a binary outcome. Effectively what was a technical job was reduced and controlled by administration. That was literally all, the process had been captured.
The airline in this example realised a substantial problem with new pilots; issues of training and conversion came to light. It took time but eventually some hardy souls dared to challenge the recruitment templates. What was found was really insightful. HR had looked for mirrors of themselves; those well versed in corporate process, an eye for administrative detail and importantly a willingness to acquiesce. Such traits were not what the airline concerned thought was in the best interests of flight safety.
Removing HR from the process was costly and designing the replacement model found them back where they started before the dark art got control.
what is this “ our experience” bullsh#t?
You are a navel gazer of the first order.
you do know don’t you that it can make you go blind.... wanking I mean.
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This back room deal is affecting the whole of Cobham, not just the 717 drivers. It can’t be legal. I hope there’s light at the end of the tunnel for them.
Of the 8 that ended up on my 330 course last year - 2 were JQ 320 FOs and 2 were Dash 8 captains.... exactly a 50% representation from the group.
Even if its a small sample of the 250+ recently recruited I'd say this is quite a good representation. Interestingly 2 from each group company.
It is my understanding that once a group pilot has been offered a position on the hold file, even if mainline wants them last week it's up to their current employer to release them to take up the position. This could be leading to some of the delays for Qlink pilots mentioned in previous posts.
Also for what its worth when I'm meeting new guys out on line most of them are surprised I'm not "off the dash". This leads me to believe Qlink pilots have been largely represented in recent recruitment.
Even if its a small sample of the 250+ recently recruited I'd say this is quite a good representation. Interestingly 2 from each group company.
It is my understanding that once a group pilot has been offered a position on the hold file, even if mainline wants them last week it's up to their current employer to release them to take up the position. This could be leading to some of the delays for Qlink pilots mentioned in previous posts.
Also for what its worth when I'm meeting new guys out on line most of them are surprised I'm not "off the dash". This leads me to believe Qlink pilots have been largely represented in recent recruitment.
If the success rate is 50% for Qlink drivers, what's the success rate for female Qlink applicants? As keg said there's no bias or agenda, so obviously the success rate would be pretty close to 50%.. (Only ask as a mate reckons it's closer to 90% getting in)
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What’s the trick to withdrawing your Qantas workday applications? It says you can do it in the initial page but there seems to be no mechanism..?
MEL 737 F/O was the most junior position in the recently released training slots for the next 12 months.
I don't have a current seniority list, but I would suggest it's currently under 12 months from joining to an F/O spot on the 737 in Melbourne. This may change rapidly.
Although Perth has traditionally been the most junior base, Keg opined elsewhere that the reason MEL may be more junior now is base balancing. ie. the company can't find the F/Os wanting to become Captains they need who are willing to go to Perth so there's no point sending a bunch of F/Os to Perth if there's no-one to fly with. Makes sense to this casual observer as the most junior 737 command in Perth was about 80 numbers junior to the most junior in Melbourne.
It's either that or they reckon they've got the numbers right in Perth as the Network flying starts to expand.
I don't have a current seniority list, but I would suggest it's currently under 12 months from joining to an F/O spot on the 737 in Melbourne. This may change rapidly.
Although Perth has traditionally been the most junior base, Keg opined elsewhere that the reason MEL may be more junior now is base balancing. ie. the company can't find the F/Os wanting to become Captains they need who are willing to go to Perth so there's no point sending a bunch of F/Os to Perth if there's no-one to fly with. Makes sense to this casual observer as the most junior 737 command in Perth was about 80 numbers junior to the most junior in Melbourne.
It's either that or they reckon they've got the numbers right in Perth as the Network flying starts to expand.
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For better with residual training slots or worse with the traffic jam in the training department?
Nunc est bibendum
Although Perth has traditionally been the most junior base, Keg opined elsewhere that the reason MEL may be more junior now is base balancing. ie. the company can't find the F/Os wanting to become Captains they need who are willing to go to Perth so there's no point sending a bunch of F/Os to Perth if there's no-one to fly with. Makes sense to this casual observer as the most junior 737 command in Perth was about 80 numbers junior to the most junior in Melbourne.
It's either that or they reckon they've got the numbers right in Perth as the Network flying starts to expand.
I don’t rule out a bit of your last point though. What will tell the tale is if the number of 737 crew overnighting in PER increases.
You would have to join as a S/O and then bid for a promotion accordingly. There are no DEFOs or DECs to mainline.
The only time time I recall it happening was post Ansett collapse in 2001 and I believe that was for a specified period in rank only.
If if you haven’t applied yet though - sounds like you haven’t - you might be waiting a while from here. They’ve just really started processing another 500 applicants after rejecting another few hundred.
The only time time I recall it happening was post Ansett collapse in 2001 and I believe that was for a specified period in rank only.
If if you haven’t applied yet though - sounds like you haven’t - you might be waiting a while from here. They’ve just really started processing another 500 applicants after rejecting another few hundred.
