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‘What you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent post were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone reading this forum is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.’
How old are you ?
Did you jump up and down when QF got rid off 5,000 staff and a couple of hundred pilots, a while ago when they were 500 in the red?
Did you jump up and down when they closed some of their maintenance facilities?
As if you care. You care about yourself, as everyone else.
My previous post was poorly worded.
You want to have a debate, i'll put my 5 bob on the table.
What i wanted to know, why do S/O's get paid 100K for the role they do, it's more than a Dash 8 Captain and B717 F/O.
VA S/O's are only on 65K.
I don't give a crap if QF pays a S/O;s 90 to 100k a year, i certainly wouldn't, it should be no more than 65K, company can save 30 million
a year, i'd even double the position up, as flight attendant and they come in the flightdeck when needed (relief), company can save 60 million
a year. Does that sound insane to you?
Why?
The company can nearly buy a new B737800 with that money.
QF, SQ, CX, have S/O's, BA,LH and others have an additional F/O as part of the crew, no S/O.
I'm well aware that's the QF culture and the job (S/O) pays that position.
If there's an economic down turn again, as previously, you know yourself the company can drop pays to save money,
and you have no say in it.
Quote: God have mercy and bless your soul".
Are you some wise guy and you think you own the world or something.
I have no intention in playing ping pong with you mister, because you're better than anyone else. You're the best.
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QF, SQ, CX, have S/O's, BA,LH and others have an additional F/O as part of the crew, no S/O.
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Seagull, didn't you get Alan's latest memo (especially the bold below)? Check your inbox immediately!
my Bold
source: FT Fair uses for the purposes of education and public interest
my Bold
China buys up flying schools as pilot demand rises
Mainland airlines scour world for staff with talent shortage threatening growth
Jamie Smyth in Melbourne and Ben Bland in Hong Kong MAY 11, 2018
Chinese airlines are buying foreign flying schools and poaching pilots, amplifying a talent shortage that has affected airlines in other regions. “The growth in Chinese aviation is unprecedented in our lifetimes and probably in history,” said Paul Jebely, a Hong-Kong-based lawyer specialising in aviation. “There have been more aircraft ordered than there are pilots to fly them. ” The squeeze on flying talent has triggered flight cancellations, dented profits and threatened the industry’s ambitious growth targets around the world. Emirates is the latest major airline to feel the impact of a war for aviation talent with the Middle Eastern carrier cancelling flights and grounding aircraft this month due to a shortage of about 125 pilots. “We’re a tad short of pilots,” Tim Clark, Emirates chief executive, said last month in a moment of understatement, adding that Chinese carriers were offering extremely competitive packages to pilots to move to Shanghai or Beijing.
Chinese airlines are buying foreign flying schools and poaching pilots, amplifying a talent shortage that has affected airlines in other regions. “The growth in Chinese aviation is unprecedented in our lifetimes and probably in history,” said Paul Jebely, a Hong-Kong-based lawyer specialising in aviation. “There have been more aircraft ordered than there are pilots to fly them. ” The squeeze on flying talent has triggered flight cancellations, dented profits and threatened the industry’s ambitious growth targets around the world. Emirates is the latest major airline to feel the impact of a war for aviation talent with the Middle Eastern carrier cancelling flights and grounding aircraft this month due to a shortage of about 125 pilots. “We’re a tad short of pilots,” Tim Clark, Emirates chief executive, said last month in a moment of understatement, adding that Chinese carriers were offering extremely competitive packages to pilots to move to Shanghai or Beijing. China's pilots get their wings in Australia In September Ryanair axed 20,000 flights due to a rostering mess-up made worse by pilot shortages. This forced the low-cost carrier to reverse a longstanding policy and recognise trade unions and agree new pay deals — a move that it said would cost it €100m ($120m) a year from 2019. Experts say the pilot shortage has been prompted by surging demand for air travel fuelled by the rise of low cost carriers in recent decades. Some say this has gone hand-in-hand with a lowering in the status and pay of pilots, in comparison to other industries, and the rising cost of flight training in western nations, which is putting off new recruits. China is on course to overtake the US as the world’s largest air travel market by 2022, according to the International Air Transport Association. US aircraft maker Boeing predicts China will need 110,000 new pilots in the years through to 2035, and its airlines are expected to purchase 7,000 commercial aircraft over the next two decades.
China’s aviation market grew by 13 per cent last year, with 549m passengers taking to the skies, double the number who flew in 2010. Growth is being driven by the rising middle class, an expansion of routes by Chinese airlines and the easing of visa restrictions by foreign governments keen to attract Chinese tourists.
The number of pilots and co-pilots working in China almost doubled between 2011 and 2017. Over recent months China’s main airlines — China Eastern, Air China, China Southern and Hainan Airlines — have stepped up recruitment and are expanding their offshore training. “Chinese airlines have raised pay dramatically,” said Dave Ross, the president of Wasinc International, which helps Chinese airlines find foreign pilots. Mr Ross said pilots coming from Central or Latin America, and some places in Europe could quadruple their compensation in China. The starting salary offered to foreign pilots in China has jumped over the past 10 years from $10,000 per month to $26,000 per month, tax free, and was still rising, he said. “Some Chinese airlines are offering tax-free salary packages, which can be up to twice what western airlines offer,” said Murray Butt, president of the Australian and International Pilots Association.
India’s surging air travel — where passenger numbers have been growing by an average of about 16 per cent a year since the beginning of the millennium — adds more pressure to the global pilot shortage.
Having seen rapid growth in passenger numbers over the past few years, Indian airlines have been recruiting from the military, from abroad and from their competitors by offering increasingly lucrative contracts. They have also made it more difficult for pilots to leave, forcing commanding officers to give a year’s notice if they wish to leave. “Airlines have been poaching each other’s pilots, and this move was meant to stop some of that,” said one pilot, referring to the one-year notice period. “But as far as the pilots are concerned, it is outrageous.” Chinese airlines pay the tuition of cadet pilots and are intensifying efforts to develop more local talent. But there are only 22 pilot schools in China and restrictions on the use of domestic airspace mean they are increasingly looking overseas to partner with foreign flights schools. Almost half of China’s 5,053 trainee pilots last year were trained abroad, creating a flourishing business for flight schools and their owners in the US, Canada and Australia. “Chinese companies have been on a buying spree of foreign flight schools from Australia to the US and the Philippines to Canada,” said Mr Jebely. “There are many very happy flight school owners who have cashed out, with some significant premiums paid.” The gleaming new offices and recently purchased Cessna aircraft at CAE Oxford’s flight school at Moorabbin airport in Melbourne highlights how Chinese cash is transforming the flight school industry in Australia.
“About half our students are Chinese students at the moment — it means we can invest in aircraft and facilities that you see here,” said Mike Drinkall, general manager of CAE Oxford, which operates more than 50 pilot schools globally. China Eastern bought half of CAE’s Australian subsidiary in 2014. It is training 150 pilots at the centre this year and plans to double that number following a $50m investment in facilities, now under construction. The influx of Chinese trainees into Australian flight schools has coincided with a 25 per cent drop in the number of local trainees receiving commercial pilots’ licences — prompting concern among the country’s airlines. “There is a shortage of pilots everywhere. We are lucky because we are at the top of the food chain,” said Alan Joyce, Qantas chief executive. “But what we are worried about is that we are taking pilots from the military and general aviation, and we can’t keep doing that or the ecosystem won’t survive.” Qantas says it will open the biggest flight school in Australia next year and train up to 500 pilots a year. The school will train Australians but also foreign candidates — including Chinese — as the airline seeks to capitalise on the fastest growing aviation market in the world. “Given our brand name this could be a good business in its own right,” said Mr Joyce.
Mainland airlines scour world for staff with talent shortage threatening growth
Jamie Smyth in Melbourne and Ben Bland in Hong Kong MAY 11, 2018
Chinese airlines are buying foreign flying schools and poaching pilots, amplifying a talent shortage that has affected airlines in other regions. “The growth in Chinese aviation is unprecedented in our lifetimes and probably in history,” said Paul Jebely, a Hong-Kong-based lawyer specialising in aviation. “There have been more aircraft ordered than there are pilots to fly them. ” The squeeze on flying talent has triggered flight cancellations, dented profits and threatened the industry’s ambitious growth targets around the world. Emirates is the latest major airline to feel the impact of a war for aviation talent with the Middle Eastern carrier cancelling flights and grounding aircraft this month due to a shortage of about 125 pilots. “We’re a tad short of pilots,” Tim Clark, Emirates chief executive, said last month in a moment of understatement, adding that Chinese carriers were offering extremely competitive packages to pilots to move to Shanghai or Beijing.
Chinese airlines are buying foreign flying schools and poaching pilots, amplifying a talent shortage that has affected airlines in other regions. “The growth in Chinese aviation is unprecedented in our lifetimes and probably in history,” said Paul Jebely, a Hong-Kong-based lawyer specialising in aviation. “There have been more aircraft ordered than there are pilots to fly them. ” The squeeze on flying talent has triggered flight cancellations, dented profits and threatened the industry’s ambitious growth targets around the world. Emirates is the latest major airline to feel the impact of a war for aviation talent with the Middle Eastern carrier cancelling flights and grounding aircraft this month due to a shortage of about 125 pilots. “We’re a tad short of pilots,” Tim Clark, Emirates chief executive, said last month in a moment of understatement, adding that Chinese carriers were offering extremely competitive packages to pilots to move to Shanghai or Beijing. China's pilots get their wings in Australia In September Ryanair axed 20,000 flights due to a rostering mess-up made worse by pilot shortages. This forced the low-cost carrier to reverse a longstanding policy and recognise trade unions and agree new pay deals — a move that it said would cost it €100m ($120m) a year from 2019. Experts say the pilot shortage has been prompted by surging demand for air travel fuelled by the rise of low cost carriers in recent decades. Some say this has gone hand-in-hand with a lowering in the status and pay of pilots, in comparison to other industries, and the rising cost of flight training in western nations, which is putting off new recruits. China is on course to overtake the US as the world’s largest air travel market by 2022, according to the International Air Transport Association. US aircraft maker Boeing predicts China will need 110,000 new pilots in the years through to 2035, and its airlines are expected to purchase 7,000 commercial aircraft over the next two decades.
China’s aviation market grew by 13 per cent last year, with 549m passengers taking to the skies, double the number who flew in 2010. Growth is being driven by the rising middle class, an expansion of routes by Chinese airlines and the easing of visa restrictions by foreign governments keen to attract Chinese tourists.
The number of pilots and co-pilots working in China almost doubled between 2011 and 2017. Over recent months China’s main airlines — China Eastern, Air China, China Southern and Hainan Airlines — have stepped up recruitment and are expanding their offshore training. “Chinese airlines have raised pay dramatically,” said Dave Ross, the president of Wasinc International, which helps Chinese airlines find foreign pilots. Mr Ross said pilots coming from Central or Latin America, and some places in Europe could quadruple their compensation in China. The starting salary offered to foreign pilots in China has jumped over the past 10 years from $10,000 per month to $26,000 per month, tax free, and was still rising, he said. “Some Chinese airlines are offering tax-free salary packages, which can be up to twice what western airlines offer,” said Murray Butt, president of the Australian and International Pilots Association.
India’s surging air travel — where passenger numbers have been growing by an average of about 16 per cent a year since the beginning of the millennium — adds more pressure to the global pilot shortage.
Having seen rapid growth in passenger numbers over the past few years, Indian airlines have been recruiting from the military, from abroad and from their competitors by offering increasingly lucrative contracts. They have also made it more difficult for pilots to leave, forcing commanding officers to give a year’s notice if they wish to leave. “Airlines have been poaching each other’s pilots, and this move was meant to stop some of that,” said one pilot, referring to the one-year notice period. “But as far as the pilots are concerned, it is outrageous.” Chinese airlines pay the tuition of cadet pilots and are intensifying efforts to develop more local talent. But there are only 22 pilot schools in China and restrictions on the use of domestic airspace mean they are increasingly looking overseas to partner with foreign flights schools. Almost half of China’s 5,053 trainee pilots last year were trained abroad, creating a flourishing business for flight schools and their owners in the US, Canada and Australia. “Chinese companies have been on a buying spree of foreign flight schools from Australia to the US and the Philippines to Canada,” said Mr Jebely. “There are many very happy flight school owners who have cashed out, with some significant premiums paid.” The gleaming new offices and recently purchased Cessna aircraft at CAE Oxford’s flight school at Moorabbin airport in Melbourne highlights how Chinese cash is transforming the flight school industry in Australia.
“About half our students are Chinese students at the moment — it means we can invest in aircraft and facilities that you see here,” said Mike Drinkall, general manager of CAE Oxford, which operates more than 50 pilot schools globally. China Eastern bought half of CAE’s Australian subsidiary in 2014. It is training 150 pilots at the centre this year and plans to double that number following a $50m investment in facilities, now under construction. The influx of Chinese trainees into Australian flight schools has coincided with a 25 per cent drop in the number of local trainees receiving commercial pilots’ licences — prompting concern among the country’s airlines. “There is a shortage of pilots everywhere. We are lucky because we are at the top of the food chain,” said Alan Joyce, Qantas chief executive. “But what we are worried about is that we are taking pilots from the military and general aviation, and we can’t keep doing that or the ecosystem won’t survive.” Qantas says it will open the biggest flight school in Australia next year and train up to 500 pilots a year. The school will train Australians but also foreign candidates — including Chinese — as the airline seeks to capitalise on the fastest growing aviation market in the world. “Given our brand name this could be a good business in its own right,” said Mr Joyce.
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The Qantas Airways Limited Pilots (Long Haul) Enterprise Agreement 2015 can be found on the Fair Work website. Here is a link: https://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/doc...a/ae415325.pdf
First year Second Officer on the A330, 747 and A380 base is about $92,500 pa with a 3% pay rise on 1 July 2018. Base pay for 787 Second Officer is about $105,000 with 3% pay rise on 1 July 2018. Base pay goes up significantly after 18 months on the A330, 747 and A380. Overtime will also add a significant amount for 747 and A380 Second Officers. Recruitment should be direct to the 787 unless there is an operational requirement to recruit to other types. The quantum of pay for 787 Second Officer is similar to regional pilot Captain pay. This is not a coincidence.
Suitably qualified new joiners wishing to fly the 737 as a First Officer can get a Perth basing very soon after joining. The most junior 737 First Officer Melbourne base was awarded to a Second Officer with about six moths in mainline.
First year Second Officer on the A330, 747 and A380 base is about $92,500 pa with a 3% pay rise on 1 July 2018. Base pay for 787 Second Officer is about $105,000 with 3% pay rise on 1 July 2018. Base pay goes up significantly after 18 months on the A330, 747 and A380. Overtime will also add a significant amount for 747 and A380 Second Officers. Recruitment should be direct to the 787 unless there is an operational requirement to recruit to other types. The quantum of pay for 787 Second Officer is similar to regional pilot Captain pay. This is not a coincidence.
Suitably qualified new joiners wishing to fly the 737 as a First Officer can get a Perth basing very soon after joining. The most junior 737 First Officer Melbourne base was awarded to a Second Officer with about six moths in mainline.
‘What you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent post were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone reading this forum is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.’
How old are you ?
Don't be gull-ible - don't feed the seagulls
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Just wondering what the pay is like for a 737 FO job out of Perth?
Hearing figures of SOs on the 747/380 who have been there since GFC all north of $300K some north of $350K
Nunc est bibendum
Qantas figures said zero about the ‘average A380 captain’. The only A380 captain in 2011 earning $500K would have been the Chief Pilot.... who is on a contract with bonuses, not line pay. He actually earns (with bonuses) significantly more than that these days.
What do they ewrn now? No idea. I can work it out and so can anyone else who has access to the award and knows a rough overtime figure.
Whether S/Os ‘deserve’ $100K, $200K or even $300K is entirely irrelevant. The agreement was negotiated and agreed to by Qantas.
In some respects this is a problem of their own making. Had they allowed QF pilots to access jobs within the group years ago (like we were asking for around 2003) the S/Os on 12 year pay on the 380 would likely instead be Captains on JQ A320s. Their positions on the A380 would be taken up by people on year 1-3 pay instead of year 12. Qantas would be saving 25-40% on S/O pay.
But hey, the smartest airline managers in the world didn’t want to ‘pollute the culture’.
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V what is the relevance of whether you earn one day of AJs wage or fifty days , he is a CEO & you say you are a pilot - they are different jobs mate
Have you had a few beers today ?
What you should be asking is how do you compare to comparable airlines ? & it would seem the QF SOs make $200k Gbp - likely more than most BA Skips
& $275K Usd , likely what a Capt at Air Canada , US major
Apples with apples Bro - you with me ?
Why would you do that Mr Deuax ? Because if you do you will divide your salary by two
& as a Capt you would be making twice what an SO makes
In 2011 QF released data that the average A380 Capts salary was 500K , sounds like tough times for the QF A380 four stripers
if you have regressed $200K over a seven year time period.
Poor chaps which should arrange a street march in all the capitals this Saturday to take up a collection for you
Will be standing by the data I know to be fact
200K GBP to be an SO - happy days it seems for the backseaters on 380/747
What % of these guys would be north of 50 you reckon ?
Have you had a few beers today ?
What you should be asking is how do you compare to comparable airlines ? & it would seem the QF SOs make $200k Gbp - likely more than most BA Skips
& $275K Usd , likely what a Capt at Air Canada , US major
Apples with apples Bro - you with me ?
Why would you do that Mr Deuax ? Because if you do you will divide your salary by two
& as a Capt you would be making twice what an SO makes
In 2011 QF released data that the average A380 Capts salary was 500K , sounds like tough times for the QF A380 four stripers
if you have regressed $200K over a seven year time period.
Poor chaps which should arrange a street march in all the capitals this Saturday to take up a collection for you
Will be standing by the data I know to be fact
200K GBP to be an SO - happy days it seems for the backseaters on 380/747
What % of these guys would be north of 50 you reckon ?
Hey Telfer86 I call absolute bull**** on your figures! I was a Captain on the A380 with Qantas from 2008 to 2015 and my average wage off my Group Certificates
for that entire period was around $364,000; $500,000 plus? Tell him he's dreaming.!!
for that entire period was around $364,000; $500,000 plus? Tell him he's dreaming.!!
Nunc est bibendum
Yes. They lied, or you’re mis-representing what they said. I suspect the average pay was closer to $365K for an A380 Captain in 2011. A 744 Captain would have been less than that again.
You can do the sums yourself if you like. Hourly pay rate was $272ish per credit hour. The divisor average per bid period was about 170. 6.5 bid periods per annum. 40 hours overtime per bid period for 6 bid periods- that o/t number is possibly a bit generous. $366K.
Now do the same numbers for the 744 Captains using an hourly pay rate of $259- except they did less overtime than the 380 by 5-10hours per bid period.
Now if perhaps Qantas instead said the highest earning A380 pilot earned $500K then perhaps that holds true. He was their man, on their contract and rarely flew. Hardly representative of ‘the average’.
You can keep trotting out the $500K BS if you like but you’re just making that hole you’re in much deeper.
You can do the sums yourself if you like. Hourly pay rate was $272ish per credit hour. The divisor average per bid period was about 170. 6.5 bid periods per annum. 40 hours overtime per bid period for 6 bid periods- that o/t number is possibly a bit generous. $366K.
Now do the same numbers for the 744 Captains using an hourly pay rate of $259- except they did less overtime than the 380 by 5-10hours per bid period.
Now if perhaps Qantas instead said the highest earning A380 pilot earned $500K then perhaps that holds true. He was their man, on their contract and rarely flew. Hardly representative of ‘the average’.
You can keep trotting out the $500K BS if you like but you’re just making that hole you’re in much deeper.
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You can call whatever you like TS
You can even call yourself a former QF WB Capt
But the CEO of QF & Senior Management were quoting $500K as being the average pay of an A380 Capt at that point in time
(from memory it included super) & 744 Capts on $440K
They lied huh Keg you claim , this all sounds very cloak & dagger , conspiracies - all a bit like an MI5 plot
You can even call yourself a former QF WB Capt
But the CEO of QF & Senior Management were quoting $500K as being the average pay of an A380 Capt at that point in time
(from memory it included super) & 744 Capts on $440K
They lied huh Keg you claim , this all sounds very cloak & dagger , conspiracies - all a bit like an MI5 plot
Add it up yourself, the most senior, doing max hours earn less than you reckon.
Yep, they lied and/or you are full of it.
I will never understand why some pilots will be upset that others get paid more than themselves. No wonder this industry is in a downward spiral .
